Someone explain this to me please

[MzLaurie11]

Can someone explain why it is advised to never fog above 67 F?
I've read the warning that it could lead to lower respiratory tract infections (pneumonia).

Why is it assumed that temperature above 67 (? Where did this number come from ?) combined with high humidity (? What’s the number for this ?) may lead to lower respiratory infections? I’m aware the optimal daytime humidity will vary depending on your species

I am a proponent of using foggers/cool mist humidifiers to achieve the nighttime humidity (understanding it’s potential drawbacks/risks and required maintenance). I have never fogged during the day when temps were higher. I think the cycle of lower RH during the day and high humidity at night follows a the natural cycle experienced in the wild, but I’m curious where this health warning comes from. And specifically the 67 F number that is frequently recommended

The dos and donts of fogging has never been clear to me. I love the fogger more importantly my cham loves it as he will not drink off of leaves, drips etc.. (Except occassionaly from a cotton ballfrom me) but had to stop fogging at night because my cham would figure a eay to spLeep directly under the fog coming in and it actually caused a RI. I like to mist the leaves with a hand mister evey morn while the fogger is on high then reduce it when the fog is thick and put him in the cage. Hehatesthe mister though. Then he breaths in his water. And then short petiod in late afternoon. But i do take into considerstion current weather andmake adjustments for it..good topic im glad we are all giving some input

 

[MzLaurie11]

@DocZ

Thanks for bringing this up!
I think it's a really important and valid question that should be thought more carefully about. I don't know the answer, but I can't find any studies or documentation demonstrating how that temperature was obtained. Frankly I think it's not backed by much although maybe I just didn't come across the full documentation that exists.

One thing that might be of interest-obviously your points above about basic principles of vertebrate airway activity are correct, but there are some studies indicating a higher risk of pneumonia or COPD admissions in elderly humans when it is hot and humid out.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730816/
And here but I didn't have time to find the publication they reference
https://www.lung.org/blog/weather-and-your-lungs

There's a lot of other literature demonstrating that warm and humid air can provoke other issues with ones' respiratory system. I found this interesting. It suggests to me that warm air combined with humidity might actually be damaging to humans, who obviously are far different than chameleons as far as lung structure and physiology. Possibly, we are less sensitive and more resilient just because for many of us, our basic needs are known and met more effectively than are for chameleons in captivity so we have more buffer to respond to infection etc. than they might. Total speculation there. However, seeing these data, I think there is precedent that some of this applies to chameleons as well. I won't get into every critique of every study above because I'm not trying to write a review paper, but it might be of value in this discussion.

Perhaps the deleterious role of humid, warm air on respiratory health has to do with modulation of inflammation, disrupting osmotic balance, vasodilation, you name it, but I suspect that the idea that bacteria grow in the air unless temperatures are arbitrarily somewhat low (67-68) is incorrect and basically misinterpreting what is actually going on. A million types of bacteria grow at much colder temperatures. It's simply wrong to say that bacterial growth is stopped at 67 degrees. What I bet is happening is fogging during warm temps causes some kind of damage or stress directly to the chameleons' respiratory physiology, and this renders them susceptible to bacteria that are already present.

I think this is further supported by some experiences I have had, wherein the difference between infection and hydration was a matter of overwhelming (my interpretation) chameleons with too thick of fog. When raising baby trioceros ellioti and hoehnelii I had some issues with RIs for babies when tweaking a fogging system. Dispersing very dense fog over a shorter period (despite providing airflow), while increasing the nighttime humidity to a similar degree as lighter fog dispersed over a longer period, would cause RIs, and the lighter fog would not. I think what happened was the dense fog basically overwhelmed the physiological capabilities of their lungs or otherwise respiratory tract, whereas the lighter fog didn't, despite the overall humidity being similar. Kind of like how one could lift 100 pounds 10 times, but one couldn't lift 1000 pounds once. That's my interpretation anyway.

Different species have different tolerance for fog inhalation it seems. I have had c. linotum next to f. lateralis in completely identical setups on the same fogger setup, where with everything identical (and fogging at 57 degrees or 60) the c. linotum absolutely thrived and the f. lateralis developed RIs within a couple of days. I suspect this is because c. linotum is adapted to inhaling that high level of fog, and as such, has physiological adaptations that prevent whatever damage is occurring, whereas f. lateralis does not (in this scenario, based on what I provided). Just an example, there are others.

To me, what we observe in captivity is much more in line with what I describe above (physiological response to overly humid air or too warm of humid air delivered in the wrong way) than this idea that bacteria only grow at an arbitrary (and debunked in the medical literature, look up any staph aureus, pseudomonas etc. growth rates) temperature. So in short, I think 67 degrees is probably based on some solid observations, as it tends to hold generally true that fogging is safer at temps there and below, but I think this reason for this is different than commonly described. Understanding whether temps of 68 or higher impact chameleon vasodilation/constriction or epithelial cell integrity in lungs, or other avenues of investigation like that would probably give us more insight into the answer, in my opinion.

That went on longer than I expected. This is just speculation on my part. I hope someone finds some value in this impromptu essay haha. I'd be very interested in everyone's opinions on this, and thanks for bringing this important topic up for discussion!

 

[DocZ]

15c =59f and 37c = 98.6f. I think both are wrong!

It prefers about 37 F
https://peerj.com/preprints/26901.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4296558/pdf/nihms653800.pdf

 

[nightanole]

I always thought it was :

Drop air temp.
Air temp is now colder than things in the room.
This prevents condensation which prevents mold

the 67 was just "3-5 degrees colder than a few hours ago".

 

[Beman]

I understand your situation. And anything can be overdone.

do you know which podcast? I listened to the naturalist hydration one last night, and unless I missed it, I never heard this temp mentioned. And while I certainly agree you shouldn’t fog during the day at high ambient temps and the basking bulb running, I’m still trying to find the data point for the 67-68 temp

I do not remember. But this was a long time ago too. And when I listened to it I was listening off of The Chameleon Breeder site. That one had the details typed below it. This would have been like late 2018 to early 2019 when I first found the info. I remember because I could not figure out at the time how to get my temps lower because Beman was in the living room and we had central heat at the time. Ok I just went and scanned through the one I thought it was and I did not see it there. Maybe it was a different podcast?

Petr also spoke about temps having to be lower when fogging. So I am trying to look through his site https://www.chameleons.info/en/


I know it was one of them that I first heard these numbers from... Or read it. I do not remember which because it was so long ago. But these were the two leaders in the hobby that I eagerly learned from at that time.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I just wanted to add... My misting periodically through the night not only raises the humidity, it also lowers the temp via evaporative cooling. Lowering the temp also raises the humidity further, eliminating the need for a fogger.

Of course, it's all going to depend on where you are & ambient conditions.
Not suggesting it as an embracive solution.

 

[DocZ]

I do not remember. But this was a long time ago too. And when I listened to it I was listening off of The Chameleon Breeder site. That one had the details typed below it. This would have been like late 2018 to early 2019 when I first found the info. I remember because I could not figure out at the time how to get my temps lower because Beman was in the living room and we had central heat at the time. Ok I just went and scanned through the one I thought it was and I did not see it there. Maybe it was a different podcast?

Petr also spoke about temps having to be lower when fogging. So I am trying to look through his site https://www.chameleons.info/en/


I know it was one of them that I first heard these numbers from... Or read it. I do not remember which because it was so long ago. But these were the two leaders in the hobby that I eagerly learned from at that time.

Thanks
I’ll keep digging

 

[DocZ]

I just wanted to add... My misting periodically through the night not only raises the humidity, it also lowers the temp via evaporative cooling. Lowering the temp also raises the humidity further, eliminating the need for a fogger.

Of course, it's all going to depend on where you are & ambient conditions.
Not suggesting it as an embracive solution.

I agree with you on both points that misting increases humidity and does lower the temp some. I have had more efficient and consistent results with foggers

 

[DocZ]

I just wanted to add... My misting periodically through the night not only raises the humidity, it also lowers the temp via evaporative cooling. Lowering the temp also raises the humidity further, eliminating the need for a fogger.

Of course, it's all going to depend on where you are & ambient conditions.
Not suggesting it as an embracive solution.

But then the same “rule” to RI risk would apply to misting. And it’s frequently recommended during the day.

These two pieces of advice don’t make logical sense

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I agree with you on both points that misting increases humidity and does lower the temp some. I have had more efficient and consistent results with foggers

Just exemplifies my last 2 lines. The Northeast is quite different in some respects to Nebraska.

But then the same “rule” to RI risk would apply to misting. And it’s frequently recommended during the day.

These two pieces of advice don’t make logical sense

I've only heard/read that with regard to not allowing things to dry out completely between mistings.
There's enough time between mistings to allow that.

I've been doing it this way for 11 months (and counting), it falls within humidity targets, and no hints of RIs—upper or lower.

He usually hides from night mistings, but revels in daytime mistings.

 

[DocZ]

Just exemplifies my last 2 lines. The Northeast is quite different in some respects to Nebraska.


I've only heard/read that with regard to not allowing things to dry out completely between mistings.
There's enough time between mistings to allow that.

I've been doing it this way for 11 months (and counting), it falls within humidity targets, and no hints of RIs—upper or lower.

He usually hides from night mistings, but revels in daytime mistings.

Again I don’t doubt it, but daytime misting will cause, at least briefly, high humidity/high temperature situations

 

[DocZ]

Just exemplifies my last 2 lines. The Northeast is quite different in some respects to Nebraska.

Everyone’s conditions will vary, but the advice can’t always be “it depends”. Even though that advice is 100% accurate

I’m ok with “rules”, but if there’s a rule I need to understand why

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Everyone’s conditions will vary, but the advice can’t always be “it depends”. Even though that advice is 100% accurate

I think it can if qualified. I do it often. Usually accompanied by as many variables as I can think of to elucidate.

I’m ok with “rules”, but if there’s a rule I need to understand why

Likewise. That's exactly why I tried what I'm doing (and some other things I do differently).

 

[Beman]

I think misting is very different then fogging... I have watched humidity levels with both. With misting I get a temp drop and a spike. With fogging I do not see the same temp drop or spike. But I still do not mist when my temps are hot from the basking fixture. My basking is off when I mist. I do have the heat from the other lights but the cage is still normally sitting at a level of 65-74 when a misting happens. I have been only misting for like a year now and I have not had any issues with RI misting at the higher ambient temp. But I also have a pc fan running on top 24/7 to pull air in my hybrid cage. I do not think stagnant air is good if your misting or fogging.

I am not sure where exactly I found the numbers of 67-68 degrees that I share with others. But I know it was from one of those two sources. I am not one to make up stuff lol

 

[kinyonga]

Found these while searching to the answer to the question of why 67F....thought I'd add them into the thread...still no answer to the 67F though...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...agement-unleashed-by-petr-necas.165025/page-2

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/fog.183743/

 

[DocZ]

Found these while searching to the answer to the question of why 67F....thought I'd add them into the thread...still no answer to the 67F though...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...agement-unleashed-by-petr-necas.165025/page-2

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/fog.183743/

Thanks. I hadn’t read the first one
Here’s a couple I’ve read recently that were also interesting
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/foggers-a-tool-or-a-danger.173556/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/naturalistic-hydration.173365/

 

[DocZ]

I think misting is very different then fogging... I have watched humidity levels with both. With misting I get a temp drop and a spike. With fogging I do not see the same temp drop or spike. But I still do not mist when my temps are hot from the basking fixture. My basking is off when I mist. I do have the heat from the other lights but the cage is still normally sitting at a level of 65-74 when a misting happens. I have been only misting for like a year now and I have not had any issues with RI misting at the higher ambient temp. But I also have a pc fan running on top 24/7 to pull air in my hybrid cage. I do not think stagnant air is good if your misting or fogging.

I am not sure where exactly I found the numbers of 67-68 degrees that I share with others. But I know it was from one of those two sources. I am not one to make up stuff lol

I think they are different too, but remember most people aren’t going to adjust their lighting. The results will be just like a Friday afternoon summer rain shower in Florida. It passes through for a few minutes, then the sun is out and it is Really hot and really humid. Creating very much the same conditions a fogger would during the day time

I’ve always used foggers at night, so temps are definitely lower than daytime. Less than 67? Sometimes, sometimes even lower down to the 50s. Stagnant air is always bad

I know you wouldn’t make anything up . I’m just curious where it came from and why

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks. I hadn’t read the first one
Here’s a couple I’ve read recently that were also interesting
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/foggers-a-tool-or-a-danger.173556/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/naturalistic-hydration.173365/

Good links! Thanks!
(I think you're just trying to keep me busy reading though!)

@DocZ said..."I know you wouldn’t make anything up . I’m just curious where it came from and why"... I feel the same!

 

[Beman]

I think they are different too, but remember most people aren’t going to adjust their lighting. The results will be just like a Friday afternoon summer rain shower in Florida. It passes through for a few minutes, then the sun is out and it is Really hot and really humid. Creating very much the same conditions a fogger would during the day time

I’ve always used foggers at night, so temps are definitely lower than daytime. Less than 67? Sometimes, sometimes even lower down to the 50s. Stagnant air is always bad

I know you wouldn’t make anything up . I’m just curious where it came from and why

I agree... Most will not adjust anything especially in the beginning. They stay to the line and just go with what they think is correct. I have played with everything since I started. Everything I have now fully customized the more I have learned. From misting to lighting and this includes staggering my T5's and reduced basking time. But when I first started I had no clue.

I also think a lot of how someone interprets the info is based on where they live. I have lived in the south where you wanna die after it rains and the sun comes out because the humidity is insane but I have lived most of my life in AZ. Where monsoons bring drastic temp drops and we still barely get humidity when the sun comes back out.

It is starting to annoy me... Because now I can not find the 67-68 concept that I now teach. I have been searching. I am starting to wonder if it was something that was posted in Bill's Facebook group back in the day. I really am not sure. I am also wondering if this was more of a rule of thumb... Trying to express that a drop in temp is required when fogging rather then an actual "safe" level. But then again if husbandry is done right a drop in temp is already in place far below that 68 idea. Right?

 

[kinyonga]

I'm still searching for the 67-68 concept too....I hope one of us will find it just to clear it up!