Someone explain this to me please

[DocZ]

Can someone explain why it is advised to never fog above 67 F?
I've read the warning that it could lead to lower respiratory tract infections (pneumonia).

Why is it assumed that temperature above 67 (? Where did this number come from ?) combined with high humidity (? What’s the number for this ?) may lead to lower respiratory infections? I’m aware the optimal daytime humidity will vary depending on your species

I am a proponent of using foggers/cool mist humidifiers to achieve the nighttime humidity (understanding it’s potential drawbacks/risks and required maintenance). I have never fogged during the day when temps were higher. I think the cycle of lower RH during the day and high humidity at night follows a the natural cycle experienced in the wild, but I’m curious where this health warning comes from. And specifically the 67 F number that is frequently recommended

 

[kinyonga]

I don't know that I can explain, it but you might like to read this site if you haven't already..
https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

Btw...I have never used foggers at night with my chameleons or other reptiles.

 

[DocZ]

I don't know that I can explain, it but you might like to read this site if you haven't already..
https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

Btw...I have never used foggers at night with my chameleons or other reptiles.

Yep. I’ve read it
I think there’s some issues with it, but I don’t really want to discuss the fogger itself because I think if you clean it the dangers are negligible.
I always use two foggers/sets of tubes. They get rotated once or twice a week so I can clean the fogger and tubes and they dry out completely between use

I’m more curious about the high temp (67?) + high humidity (%?) = RI

 

[DocZ]

I don't know that I can explain, it but you might like to read this site if you haven't already..
https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

Btw...I have never used foggers at night with my chameleons or other reptiles.

And I’m also very aware that many experienced keepers like you don’t do this.
I’m more interested in the apparent association and recommendation of temp + humidity = RI

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I’m more interested in the apparent association and recommendation of temp + humidity = RI"...I've been interested in that too....for a long time.

 

[DocZ]

You said..."I’m more interested in the apparent association and recommendation of temp + humidity = RI"...I've been interested in that too....for a long time.

Kindred spirits in our quest for knowledge

 

[kinyonga]

There are only 2 respiratory infections I can remember in my chameleons. One involved a Meller's that came to me "second hand" that already had it when I got it. Unfortunately it wasn't able to be saved. The other was a WC one that had been shipped in a group and the whole group had the infection. It died too.

 

[DocZ]

If you look at the veterinary papers, they frequently mention that environmental conditions contribute to respiratory problems. I’m certain this is true, but which condition and why?

The respiratory tract of any vertebrate doesn’t like to be dry. All vertebrates humidify inspired air in their upper respiratory tract before it reaches their lungs to maintain the health and integrity of the their lower respiratory tract and expend bodily fluid (give away internal hydration) to ensure this occurs. So in my opinion, too low humidity is likely more detrimental to respiratory health than too high

the correlation I keep hearing doesn’t make sense

 

[CasqueAbove]

I believe the 67 comes from mimicking the dew point.
On thing always left out is how to fog. At any temp inhale the mist right off the house and you will choke. I believe the threat is more wher the fog is too thick.

 

[DocZ]

I believe the 67 comes from mimicking the dew point.
On thing always left out is how to fog. At any temp inhale the mist right off the house and you will choke. I believe the threat is more wher the fog is too thick.

@CasqueAbove thank you!
Can you expand on that? I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re getting at

what do these animals that live in cloud forests do? Is the assertion that “fogging” is thicker “real fog”

 

[kinyonga]

It's never made sense to me either.

I think you're absolutely right about all vertebrates liking/needing moist air over dry air in the respiratory tract.

Temperatures and conditions that bacteria can live in, of course, are a part of this problem. So what temperature can the possible bacteria live in that would cause an RI?

 

[kinyonga]

Pneumonia is supposed to be worse in cold dry areas.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611108003429

 

[DocZ]

Pseudomonas is frequently noted as a common respiratory pathogen causing RI
Unfortunately it’s also ubiquitous in the environment and occurs at some level all around us and our lizards at all times

that’s one of my issues with the Madcham article. It states 15 C is it’s optimum temp which is not true. Although it can survive and reproduce at low temperatures, any scientific literature will say it’s optimum temp is 37 C and in fact many of its virulence factors (stuff that makes it damage hosts) are less active or non-existent at lower temps

 

[DocZ]

Pneumonia is supposed to be worse in cold dry areas.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611108003429

So this says low temp and/or low humidity = RI

perfect that it’s the exact opposite of what gets recommended. I understand human vs reptile, but there’s very little reptile literature compared to mammalian and thus most is based on human/other mammal research

 

[DocZ]

Pneumonia is supposed to be worse in cold dry areas.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611108003429

Although this does go along with improper environmental conditions leading to RI

and also tends to confirm my assumption that low humidity is dangerous to respiratory health

 

[kinyonga]

I believe the 67 comes from mimicking the dew point.
On thing always left out is how to fog. At any temp inhale the mist right off the house and you will choke. I believe the threat is more wher the fog is too thick.

So humidity is 100% at 67F with any humidifier used then in any climate?

 

[DocZ]

It's never made sense to me either.

I think you're absolutely right about all vertebrates liking/needing moist air over dry air in the respiratory tract.

Temperatures and conditions that bacteria can live in, of course, are a part of this problem. So what temperature can the possible bacteria live in that would cause an RI?

You asked “what temperature can the possible bacteria live in that would cause an RI?”
I need to learn more about the most common pathogens in RI in Chams, but it seems from what little I know gram negative bacteria are most common in most reptile infections (I could be wrong here....), but pseudomonas aeruginosa is a fairly common gram-negative pathogen implicated in RI

 

[kinyonga]

Pseudomonas has a wide range of temperatures that it grow in. I thought it's optimal temperature was above 20C?
I thought it could survive between 4C and 42C?

 

[DocZ]

Pseudomonas has a wide range of temperatures that it grow in. I thought it's optimal temperature was above 20C?

A bit about growing your own P. Aeruginsa

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4296558/pdf/nihms653800.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

I haven't grown it but many of my WC lizards and even a turtle did. It's usually green and smells like rotting grapes.