Someone explain this to me please

[kinyonga]

I think there's a hole too.

 

[Thatwizard420]

Once a month I use very diluted f10 in my water for fogger

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Once a month I use very diluted f10 in my water for fogger

Not with your cham in there, I hope! I'd worry something like that could wipe out his GOOD bacteria.

 

[CasqueAbove]

@CasqueAbove thank you!
Can you expand on that? I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re getting at

what do these animals that live in cloud forests do? Is the assertion that “fogging” is thicker “real fog”

Oh. This is the lows they experience in nature and the corresponding dew point on an average. So it is based on observation vs some kind of formula.

 

[CasqueAbove]

One thing I think gets confused alot, and I don't fully understand. But we use the terms "Fog, as in fogger" , Humidity, and hot humid, aka steam sort of. These are three different things. I think this causes confusion. Foggeres should be thought of as a tool to raise ambient humidity. Not that they need to be inhaling fog. The hot humid fear I believe is distorted. If we use a fogger, with heat we will create steam. This is bad.

This is my thought.
The water droplets will either expand or shrink depending on temp. Correct?
So if an animal inhales droplets above body temp those droplets can condense creating fluid in the lungs. If an animal inhales cool droplets they will warm and expand staying gas form and able to be exhaled properly.

Does this make sense ?

 

[MissSkittles]

There is a hole somewhere in the logic or wild Florida would have RI.

No hole. Just the air circulation of being outside.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

This is my thought.
The water droplets will either expand or shrink depending on temp. Correct?

...and RH. The only time droplets will expand is if the RH (regardless of temp) is already at/near 100%.
Changing temp will also change RH.

So if an animal inhales droplets above body temp those droplets can condense creating fluid in the lungs. If an animal inhales cool droplets [cooler than body temp] they will warm and expand staying gas form and able to be exhaled properly.

Does this make sense ?

No, not entirely. Temp of droplets may raise/lower body temp. (at least in the lung at first) either way, depending on Δt.

 

[DocZ]

I originally heard it in a podcast that Bill did. It was that temps should be below 67-68... I believe due to keepers keeping them hotter at night that it would be more dangerous to fog with temps higher and could contribute to respiratory infections. So since they need a night time drop anyways then you would do it only when temps are below that range.

I stopped fogging though. My temps were lower then the range. But the urates were like water. So then I was told I was over hydrating them. That the urate should have form.... But they were always like water. Within a few weeks of stopping fogging the urates were normal with form and white.

I understand your situation. And anything can be overdone.

do you know which podcast? I listened to the naturalist hydration one last night, and unless I missed it, I never heard this temp mentioned. And while I certainly agree you shouldn’t fog during the day at high ambient temps and the basking bulb running, I’m still trying to find the data point for the 67-68 temp

 

[CasqueAbove]

...and RH. The only time droplets will expand is if the RH (regardless of temp) is already at/near 100%.
Changing temp will also change RH.

No, not entirely. Temp of droplets may raise/lower body temp. (at least in the lung at first) either way, depending on Δt.

OK I know it is not as simple as I make it sound, and I am not stating fact of course. Only if this theory may have something to do with it.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I've noticed a phenomenon with enclosure humidity that isn't often discussed, which has influenced my not using a fogger. I've measured humidity inside the canopy of a plant up to 10% higher than humidity out in the open, and it's usually under the canopy that chameleons sleep. Natural air flow doesn't seem to affect this much; IDK about enclosures with fans.

 

[DocZ]

One thing I think gets confused alot, and I don't fully understand. But we use the terms "Fog, as in fogger" , Humidity, and hot humid, aka steam sort of. These are three different things. I think this causes confusion. Foggeres should be thought of as a tool to raise ambient humidity. Not that they need to be inhaling fog. The hot humid fear I believe is distorted. If we use a fogger, with heat we will create steam. This is bad.

This is my thought.
The water droplets will either expand or shrink depending on temp. Correct?
So if an animal inhales droplets above body temp those droplets can condense creating fluid in the lungs. If an animal inhales cool droplets they will warm and expand staying gas form and able to be exhaled properly.

Does this make sense ?

I totally agree that it’s a tool, and I think it can be used effectively. I think their ability to raise humidity to 90-100% at night both mimics nature and prevents a water deficit that will occur overnight at low humidity levels. If the humidity is low at night, they will use their body water to humidify the air before it reaches their lungs. Over an extended period, this could lead to dehydration and kidney dysfunction and a whole host of other health problems

I’m theorizing lately that much of the disease processes common in captive chameleons is due to kidney dysfunction. And thus I’m very interested in hydration because adequately hydrated animals will have much more effective excretion and reabsorption of anything going through the kidney.
for example, inadequate hydration causes decreased filtration and elimination of uric acid by the kidneys leading to build up in the serum/tissues which could cause gout. I’m less concerned that higher protein diets are the main issue. A properly functioning kidney will eliminate the waste. These are carnivores so they should be far less susceptible to higher protein diets than a herbivorous reptile

 

[DocZ]

I've noticed a phenomenon with enclosure humidity that isn't often discussed, which has influenced my not using a fogger. I've measured humidity inside the canopy of a plant up to 10% higher than humidity out in the open, and it's usually under the canopy that chameleons sleep. Natural air flow doesn't seem to affect this much; IDK about enclosures with fans.

There are definitely different humidity and temperature pockets that occur throughout our enclosures. I have a small glass terrarium 18x18x24 that I keep a gargoyle gecko in. It has a basking bulb on a dimming thermostat set to 80 F at an upper basking branch, a 7% shade dweller UVB, and a Sansi LED fixture. I have two sensorpush sensors in the cage. One is up high on the opposite side as the basking bulb, and one is down low more towards the middle. They have significantly different readings most times of the day. I have a fogger run by a herpstat set to 85% RH so it only runs for a few minutes several times per night. I mist for 15 seconds twice per day, once at 0730, once at 1930 I also have a fan on a dimming cord that creates gentle airflow during the day

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Dude... I'm technologically challenged.

 

[DocZ]

Dude... I'm technologically challenged.

Me too. Plug it in. Pair to the phone (push the pair to phone button). Done. Put it where you like

 

[DocZ]

Me too. Plug it in. Pair to the phone (push the pair to phone button). Done. Put it where you like

And the sensors run on batteries. The plug it in part is the “gateway” that will log the data for you

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Me too. Plug it in. Pair to the phone (push the pair to phone button). Done. Put it where you like

No, you don't understand. I don't own a cell phone, much less a smart phone.

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... I used to be more savvy, but... nevermind—long irrelevant story.

 

[DocZ]

No, you don't understand. I don't own a cell phone, much less a smart phone.

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away... I used to be more savvy, but... nevermind—long irrelevant story.

Fair enough

 

[Thatwizard420]

Not with your cham in there, I hope! I'd worry something like that could wipe out his GOOD bacteria.

not with him in.

I did Cured one of my snakes with a respiratory infection doing that.

 

[kinyonga]

https://www.earthnetworks.com/resources/weather-facts/what-is-fog/#what-is-fog
https://www.weather.gov/source/zhu/ZHU_Training_Page/fog_stuff/fog_definitions/Fog_definitions.html

 

[MzLaurie11]

Pseudomonas is frequently noted as a common respiratory pathogen causing RI
Unfortunately it’s also ubiquitous in the environment and occurs at some level all around us and our lizards at all times

that’s one of my issues with the Madcham article. It states 15 C is it’s optimum temp which is not true. Although it can survive and reproduce at low temperatures, any scientific literature will say it’s optimum temp is 37 C and in fact many of its virulence factors (stuff that makes it damage hosts) are less active or non-existent at lower temps

15c =59f and 37c = 98.6f. I think both are wrong!