Someone explain this to me please

[DocZ]

I haven't grown it but many of my WC lizards and even a turtle has. It's usually green and smells like rotting grapes.

I believe it!
That article notes how dangerous it can be to humans especially immunocompromized people. It’s not surprising that stressed WC Chams are susceptible, but to me that’s also a good data point from an experienced keeper that you have seen it in stressed animals, not ones long term under your careful care

it could then follow that something is making them susceptible. I’m comfortable with husbandry conditions being the first thing to examine, but so far I’m not seeing evidence for high temp/humidity being the problem

 

[javadi]

@DocZ

Thanks for bringing this up!
I think it's a really important and valid question that should be thought more carefully about. I don't know the answer, but I can't find any studies or documentation demonstrating how that temperature was obtained. Frankly I think it's not backed by much although maybe I just didn't come across the full documentation that exists.

One thing that might be of interest-obviously your points above about basic principles of vertebrate airway activity are correct, but there are some studies indicating a higher risk of pneumonia or COPD admissions in elderly humans when it is hot and humid out.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730816/
And here but I didn't have time to find the publication they reference
https://www.lung.org/blog/weather-and-your-lungs

There's a lot of other literature demonstrating that warm and humid air can provoke other issues with ones' respiratory system. I found this interesting. It suggests to me that warm air combined with humidity might actually be damaging to humans, who obviously are far different than chameleons as far as lung structure and physiology. Possibly, we are less sensitive and more resilient just because for many of us, our basic needs are known and met more effectively than are for chameleons in captivity so we have more buffer to respond to infection etc. than they might. Total speculation there. However, seeing these data, I think there is precedent that some of this applies to chameleons as well. I won't get into every critique of every study above because I'm not trying to write a review paper, but it might be of value in this discussion.

Perhaps the deleterious role of humid, warm air on respiratory health has to do with modulation of inflammation, disrupting osmotic balance, vasodilation, you name it, but I suspect that the idea that bacteria grow in the air unless temperatures are arbitrarily somewhat low (67-68) is incorrect and basically misinterpreting what is actually going on. A million types of bacteria grow at much colder temperatures. It's simply wrong to say that bacterial growth is stopped at 67 degrees. What I bet is happening is fogging during warm temps causes some kind of damage or stress directly to the chameleons' respiratory physiology, and this renders them susceptible to bacteria that are already present.

I think this is further supported by some experiences I have had, wherein the difference between infection and hydration was a matter of overwhelming (my interpretation) chameleons with too thick of fog. When raising baby trioceros ellioti and hoehnelii I had some issues with RIs for babies when tweaking a fogging system. Dispersing very dense fog over a shorter period (despite providing airflow), while increasing the nighttime humidity to a similar degree as lighter fog dispersed over a longer period, would cause RIs, and the lighter fog would not. I think what happened was the dense fog basically overwhelmed the physiological capabilities of their lungs or otherwise respiratory tract, whereas the lighter fog didn't, despite the overall humidity being similar. Kind of like how one could lift 100 pounds 10 times, but one couldn't lift 1000 pounds once. That's my interpretation anyway.

Different species have different tolerance for fog inhalation it seems. I have had c. linotum next to f. lateralis in completely identical setups on the same fogger setup, where with everything identical (and fogging at 57 degrees or 60) the c. linotum absolutely thrived and the f. lateralis developed RIs within a couple of days. I suspect this is because c. linotum is adapted to inhaling that high level of fog, and as such, has physiological adaptations that prevent whatever damage is occurring, whereas f. lateralis does not (in this scenario, based on what I provided). Just an example, there are others.

To me, what we observe in captivity is much more in line with what I describe above (physiological response to overly humid air or too warm of humid air delivered in the wrong way) than this idea that bacteria only grow at an arbitrary (and debunked in the medical literature, look up any staph aureus, pseudomonas etc. growth rates) temperature. So in short, I think 67 degrees is probably based on some solid observations, as it tends to hold generally true that fogging is safer at temps there and below, but I think this reason for this is different than commonly described. Understanding whether temps of 68 or higher impact chameleon vasodilation/constriction or epithelial cell integrity in lungs, or other avenues of investigation like that would probably give us more insight into the answer, in my opinion.

That went on longer than I expected. This is just speculation on my part. I hope someone finds some value in this impromptu essay haha. I'd be very interested in everyone's opinions on this, and thanks for bringing this important topic up for discussion!

 

[javadi]

Hm

@DocZ

In the time it took me to write all that, looks like a great discussion has been had. Great point that virulence isn't the same as growth in all conditions. I would temper that statement above I make about bacterial growth occurring a little bit, in light of this point.

 

[kinyonga]

@javadi you make some good points!

 

[DocZ]

@DocZ

Thanks for bringing this up!
I think it's a really important and valid question that should be thought more carefully about. I don't know the answer, but I can't find any studies or documentation demonstrating how that temperature was obtained. Frankly I think it's not backed by much although maybe I just didn't come across the full documentation that exists.

One thing that might be of interest-obviously your points above about basic principles of vertebrate airway activity are correct, but there are some studies indicating a higher risk of pneumonia or COPD admissions in elderly humans when it is hot and humid out.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29730816/
And here but I didn't have time to find the publication they reference
https://www.lung.org/blog/weather-and-your-lungs

There's a lot of other literature demonstrating that warm and humid air can provoke other issues with ones' respiratory system. I found this interesting. It suggests to me that warm air combined with humidity might actually be damaging to humans, who obviously are far different than chameleons as far as lung structure and physiology. Possibly, we are less sensitive and more resilient just because for many of us, our basic needs are known and met more effectively than are for chameleons in captivity so we have more buffer to respond to infection etc. than they might. Total speculation there. However, seeing these data, I think there is precedent that some of this applies to chameleons as well. I won't get into every critique of every study above because I'm not trying to write a review paper, but it might be of value in this discussion.

Perhaps the deleterious role of humid, warm air on respiratory health has to do with modulation of inflammation, disrupting osmotic balance, vasodilation, you name it, but I suspect that the idea that bacteria grow in the air unless temperatures are arbitrarily somewhat low (67-68) is incorrect and basically misinterpreting what is actually going on. A million types of bacteria grow at much colder temperatures. It's simply wrong to say that bacterial growth is stopped at 67 degrees. What I bet is happening is fogging during warm temps causes some kind of damage or stress directly to the chameleons' respiratory physiology, and this renders them susceptible to bacteria that are already present.

I think this is further supported by some experiences I have had, wherein the difference between infection and hydration was a matter of overwhelming (my interpretation) chameleons with too thick of fog. When raising baby trioceros ellioti and hoehnelii I had some issues with RIs for babies when tweaking a fogging system. Dispersing very dense fog over a shorter period (despite providing airflow), while increasing the nighttime humidity to a similar degree as lighter fog dispersed over a longer period, would cause RIs, and the lighter fog would not. I think what happened was the dense fog basically overwhelmed the physiological capabilities of their lungs or otherwise respiratory tract, whereas the lighter fog didn't, despite the overall humidity being similar. Kind of like how one could lift 100 pounds 10 times, but one couldn't lift 1000 pounds once. That's my interpretation anyway.

Different species have different tolerance for fog inhalation it seems. I have had c. linotum next to f. lateralis in completely identical setups on the same fogger setup, where with everything identical (and fogging at 57 degrees or 60) the c. linotum absolutely thrived and the f. lateralis developed RIs within a couple of days. I suspect this is because c. linotum is adapted to inhaling that high level of fog, and as such, has physiological adaptations that prevent whatever damage is occurring, whereas f. lateralis does not (in this scenario, based on what I provided). Just an example, there are others.

To me, what we observe in captivity is much more in line with what I describe above (physiological response to overly humid air or too warm of humid air delivered in the wrong way) than this idea that bacteria only grow at an arbitrary (and debunked in the medical literature, look up any staph aureus, pseudomonas etc. growth rates) temperature. So in short, I think 67 degrees is probably based on some solid observations, as it tends to hold generally true that fogging is safer at temps there and below, but I think this reason for this is different than commonly described. Understanding whether temps of 68 or higher impact chameleon vasodilation/constriction or epithelial cell integrity in lungs, or other avenues of investigation like that would probably give us more insight into the answer, in my opinion.

That went on longer than I expected. This is just speculation on my part. I hope someone finds some value in this impromptu essay haha. I'd be very interested in everyone's opinions on this, and thanks for bringing this important topic up for discussion!

Great points!
Still unpacking all of that. Here’s the full text of your article for everyone playing at home (I haven’t read the whole article yet)
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s00484-018-1542-2.pdf

 

[kinyonga]

I wonder if this is true in chameleons...
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/slow-cold-reptiles-may-breathe-energetic-birds

 

[DocZ]

@javadi i think you bring up an important concept of extremes in parameters possibly being deleterious to an animals health
Too much of a good thing sort of concept. Fogging may not be bad but intense fogging may be dangerous. This follows with every other husbandry parameter from supplementation, lighting, feeding, etc. they can all be implemented in dangerous ways

 

[DocZ]

I wonder if this is true in chameleons...
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/slow-cold-reptiles-may-breathe-energetic-birds

I saw the papers about monitor lizards and unidirectional flow today while I was searching!

 

[DocZ]

I wonder if this is true in chameleons...
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/slow-cold-reptiles-may-breathe-energetic-birds

This theory also feeds into non-constant breathing pattern of lizards
interesting quote from that article “Less urgency in breathing can bring many economies, such as less loss of body moisture or heat.”

 

[kinyonga]

I saw the papers about monitor lizards and unidirectional flow today while I was searching!

We really are on the same page for some things!

 

[DocZ]

“Perhaps the deleterious role of humid, warm air on respiratory health has to do with modulation of inflammation, disrupting osmotic balance, vasodilation, you name it, but I suspect that the idea that bacteria grow in the air unless temperatures are arbitrarily somewhat low (67-68) is incorrect and basically misinterpreting what is actually going on. A million types of bacteria grow at much colder temperatures. It's simply wrong to say that bacterial growth is stopped at 67 degrees. What I bet is happening is fogging during warm temps causes some kind of damage or stress directly to the chameleons' respiratory physiology, and this renders them susceptible to bacteria that are already present.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9648183/
this article alludes to some of this although it doesn’t give data or reference to what exactly is happening. Atelectasis from high vapor content is an interesting concept. The atelectatic areas could certainly promote bacterial growth and lead to pneumonia

@javadi I think your observation of problems with dense fogging vs lighter fogging and also two species having very different results from the same level of fog are also very interesting. It alludes to fact that each of these animals has evolved in different conditions and fogging, just like temperature, supplementation, and UVI levels, needs to be tailored to their natural conditions. I think this could be difficult especially for newer keepers to do. And it’s important that whatever is recommended can be fairly easily reproduced

i agree that the 67 F has nothing to do with the pathogens themselves. However, if we are hypothesizing that extremes of weather both high temp/high humidity and low temp/low humidity can have negative health consequences, a dew point above 67 is definitely fairly high. Even a dew point of 67 would be pretty uncomfortable weather

And now I’m turning the dew point monitoring back on my sensors so I can stare at that every day as well.........

 

[DocZ]

We really are on the same page for some things!

That’s when I know I’m on the right track

 

[Lindasjackson]

All I have to say Is haveyou ever experienced a hot and very humid day? I have and it’s hard to breath, this is why I won’t live in Florida! Yes I have lung issues but what I’m saying is I think the combination of hot and very humid may have an effect on reptile lungs but cool and humid may not. I don’t believe 67 degrees is the magical number but I do recommend not to fog above that temp because it seems to be the rule around here. I’d rather say don’t fog during the day, only at night because I don’t think they need it during the day and only fog when it feels cool.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I've a few too many irons in the fire to do the digging right now, but I believe a clue may be found by comparing (species-local) nighttime (low) temps & RH figures.

Btw...I have never used foggers at night with my chameleons or other reptiles.

+1.

And I’m also very aware that many experienced keepers like you don’t do this.

Does my 2 yrs. of near full-time research followed by one yr. of practical keeping count as "experienced keeper"?

 

[Beman]

I originally heard it in a podcast that Bill did. It was that temps should be below 67-68... I believe due to keepers keeping them hotter at night that it would be more dangerous to fog with temps higher and could contribute to respiratory infections. So since they need a night time drop anyways then you would do it only when temps are below that range.

I stopped fogging though. My temps were lower then the range. But the urates were like water. So then I was told I was over hydrating them. That the urate should have form.... But they were always like water. Within a few weeks of stopping fogging the urates were normal with form and white.

 

[kinyonga]

I've a few too many irons in the fire to do the digging right now, but I believe a clue may be found by comparing (species-local) nighttime (low) temps & RH figures.


+1. Does 2 yrs. of research followed by one yr. of practical keeping count as "experienced keeper"?

I assume you're referring to your experience...not mine?

We just have to keep searching for the right clues.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I assume you're referring to your experience...not mine?

You have to ask? You should know your own experience better than that!

 

[kinyonga]

Of course I do...I just wanted to make it clear to others that you were referring to yours....not mine,

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Of course I do...I just wanted to make it clear to others that you were referring to yours....not mine,

There—fixed it.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So humidity is 100% at 67F with any humidifier used then in any climate?

Lol I don’t say it makes sense, but I believe that is where the logic started. That and trying to match nature at night. There is a hole somewhere in the logic or wild Florida would have RI.