Foggers, a Tool or a Danger?

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Okay folks, I wanted to open up the discussion on Foggers. Are these truly the miracle devices we have as of late made them to be? Or are they actually a hidden danger, that we have exposed to our animals? We have all heard the thoughts on their positives, We have heard Chameleons drink less with their use, or not at all. We have Heard how humidity is higher at night in the Wild Areas where Chameleons reside. Which stands as great information, and we should be pushing for a more natural approach. I am 100% for pushing for nature, Bio activity, Naturalistic Lighting, ect.

There has been a few discussion threads, on "Naturalistic Hydration" and we will be touching on that, the fogger is a major aspect of that very idea. However this thread, is mostly in the context of solely the fogger.

The Theory:
The thought process behind the use of a Fogger, was/is simple. When we look at the weather patterns of say Madagascar, where from a lot of our glorious Dragons hail. We see a massive spike of night time humidity. Humidity rises to 100% almost constant. The Theory has been, this causes less water less in the animal, and that the animal Hydrates via this high night time humidity and thick fog.

The theory holds water :p. And increase in Humidity at night, would surely slow the loss of water, I think we can all fathom why this works and how it works. Breathing in highly humid air, may also result in a hydration effect more testing is needed to be sure, but it makes sense.

For this Theory holding water :p, we as a community have ran with it. Everyone is buying Foggers, trying to improve the care of our beautiful animals, which is great to see. It shows that we as a community want to be better, and as member of it, I LOVE THIS ATTITUDE. However, as the OP has stated, is the Fogger really this miraculous tool? Or is it truly a danger to our animals? Lets Explore.


The Myths:

Fog Hydration:
We see it being said, that Foggers will in fact hydrate our animals, that the fog that is carried by our "Foggers" of choice, will be entered and absorbed into our animals bodies. Our captives, "Drink" almost via these Water Molecules. However, there is not much weight held by that idea.

But you say, Cyber why? If there is Fog all around the Chameleon, surely they are inhaling this "Fog" and becoming Hydrated? Not so fast, it all comes down to Particle Size. Enough of me rambling for a minute, Lets let Madcham.DE explain :).

2020-02-15 21_32_59-Fog and foggers – Madcham.de.png

https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/ (VERY GOOD Article on this Subject, and you should Read all of it!)


Well wait what are the size of the particles created by our Foggers? Well House of Hydro will have you believe <5µm.

"The ceramic discs vibrate at an ultrasonic frequency to silently create microscopic (< 5 micron) water droplets. Ultrasonic humidifiers make a cool fog that is great for reptiles, greenhouses, and home humidification."

Less than 5? Really, thats our accurate particle size? Hmmm, sounds like Marketing to me.

We see this site, and we see conflicting stories. https://gardenerdy.com/ultrasonic-fogger-how-does-it-work
They state the same "Typically under 5" They keep using that symbol, I dont think it means what they think it means.

"The water particles it generates are about 5-15 micrometers in size and they are absorbed by the plants’ roots. Ultrasonic hydroponic foggers thus help in accelerating the plant growth process."

BTW, most sites seem to agree, that 5 Microns, are the VERY Best, of Cool Mist foggers. Nothing less, than the best. That is the absolute Floor these things are capable of. Below 5, you have to move towards "Nebulizers" as like used in the medical field, why? Because it takes less than 5 microns to get fully into the lungs, all the way down.

"Well Cyber, I have the best? I have an expensive Fogponics Fogger, I believe its 5 or less". Thats fine and great, and it may very well be 5, however its not less. Now remember the Theory is humans need 5, Chams likely need much less.

Is your best model, really 5 microns? Hmmm lets see how we test that?

The claim is:
"When used for agricultural purposes, it is important that there are no free water particles that can damage the plants and that water does not condense on the plants or their growing mediums. Since ultrasonic foggers produce water particles of the size of 5 microns or less, there is no possibility of condensation on the plants’ surface or their growing medium. Also, the humidity levels are such that seedlings can grow healthily." https://gardenerdy.com/ultrasonic-fogger-how-does-it-work

Hmmm, I wonder if these people use the product? Thats not the case with my House of Hydros, they defiantly wet the leaves. Wasn't that our intent? to create a dew on the leaves with the fogger? But if it creates a Dew, its not 5 microns is it? Interesting they keep referring to dry fog, I put my hand in front of my HOH fogger, and my hand gets wet, nothing dry about it.

Agree or Disagree, its time to move on, to the next section.

Chameleon Wild Drinking: It has been well documented, that a few field researchers have Noted, that they do not see chameleons drink in the wild. This could very well be true, I am not trying to demean or discredit what they have seen, or have not seen at all. However in this instance, we must go back to the age old saying.
"An Absence of Evidence, is NOT Evidence of Absence" That rings true, in all aspects of life, and science, this one is no different. Now I will provide some contrast.

2020-02-15 22_08_45-Fog and foggers – Madcham.de.png

https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/ (VERY GOOD Article on this Subject, and you should Read all of it!, AGAIN!)

"Wait... Now I'm even more confused? Which is it, do they drink the water or NOT"

This is not something I cant answer for you, I can tell you that the above source is an extremely reliable one, that has moved to Madagascar to Document our Precious dragons. Their stark contrast, to the findings of some others, however is up for you to decide. I can tell you, that I am more for the statement of what is seen, rather than what is stated as not seen when 2 respectable sources are in contrast. I can also tell you what I seen with my captives, as I am sure you can see from the rest of the folks in this hobby. This is your decision to make.

With that, we move on.


The Danger:

Alright, we get it, we seen the contrast of ideas. We have seen how this may not help, but it cannot hurt can it?

Well sadly yes, yes it very much can hurt. To understand this, we have to look into ultrasonic humidifiers (foggers) work. In a laymens term, Ultrasonic Foggers, create vibration that cause the water to form small particles which are then airborne, from the push of energy, and the fan pushes them through the tube. Well whats wrong with that? Bacteria is whats wrong with that, along with chemicals, and or whatever else finds its way into that "Mist".

Everyone talks about the positives of the fogger, but not the danger, and it is real...

"People should be especially cautious with ultrasonic or "cool mist" humidifiers. On the market since the late 1980s, these types are popular because they're cheap, quiet and energy efficient. They work by basically pulverizing water into a fine mist with high-frequency vibration. The problem, says Dr. Deterding, is that they turn everything that's in the water into mist, too.

"Bacteria, chemicals, minerals, mold — they aerosolize all that stuff to the right particulate size that you breathe it right into your lungs, and it can be toxic," says Dr. Deterding. "One of our patients developed chronic lung disease symptoms. We eventually figured out it was the humidifier.""

"And if parents use chemicals to clean the humidifier, those chemicals go right into the lungs, too, sometimes to disastrous effect. In South Korea, dozens of children were sickened or died from breathing a humidifier disinfectant that turned out to be toxic."

https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/parenting/parenting-articles/danger-of-humidifiers/

WHATTTT RIs in Humans, Kids dying from Cleaning? How do we win? If we dont clean it it can and will cause RI's, if we do clean it it could be deadly as well. How do we win? We dont...

I know, I know now someone will tell me that its okay to use a fogger, as long as Temps are low there is no problem right? Heat + Humidity generates the bacteria, its a cool mist, there is no concern? Not so fast...

2020-02-15 22_36_23-Google.png

https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/ (VERY GOOD Article on this Subject, and you should Read all of it!, read it a THIRD TIME, GREAT ARTICLE!!!)

Great, now we have a germ that just grows, infects chams, and doesn't care what temperature it is... We have algae, we have Mold, we have Mildew.... Foggers are supposed to be Cleaned every 48 hours going longer than 72 is a serious health risk, and that includes all lines... This is starting to sound like another product in our hobby, where the value just doesn't outweigh the risk. Even if I do clean it, now I run the risk of poisoning my animal...

Even if you kill all the germs, they will be right back. Life simply doesn't work that way. We suggest against the use of Waterfalls, due to the massive Bacterial issues that they present. So why are we using foggers that if they work as we think, and are brought into the lungs, they are that much more dangerous. The Risk does not outweigh the perceived Gain, especially when said gain, doesn't really hold that much water.


Contd Below 10k limit.
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Now, is this "bacteria" really an issue. I would say YES! I have in my own fogger examples noticed a slimy film, like substance, I have read this slime is a bacteria, that can cause RI issues even in humans. Also Nightanole mentioned the same finding tonight.

For just a data point. I only got RI the few winters when i ran the ultra sonic mister all winter long. Anything rubber or porous in the room got coated in something that could be described as a protein scum.
This piece of data, is from. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

Where the conclusion so far seems to be that the Heat + Humidity create RIs, also doesn't hold water. The fogger on the otherhand....

A Solution:
There really isnt one, that is completely perfect or fully proven yet. However myself and some others in the hobby, have found some stop gaps and half tested ideas. I will share those with you. Raising the humidity at night, is a good goal. It is closer to nature for alot of species, and its not something we should be completely opposed to, we just need to change the methodology.

A Night Mist: A mist right after lights out, is a very good way to help raise the humidity at night. Its success is very dependent on other factors however. This alone will not give you high humidity at night, but its use with one or more of below techniques is a good start, using all of these in tandem is the best chance you have of 80% or more at night that we are looking for.

I dont advise this as a long mist, just a short burst. 30 secs, a minute, just enough to sprinkle a little water over everything so it can evaporate through the night. The bacteria, is still a thing with this method. the difference? Its not being pushed into a chams lungs in large quantity.

A fun fact, as we have thought alot that our Misters are very far from Nature. The Madcham Article, speaks about the Fogs in Madagascar, they mention a thick wetting fog, that is found there. They say its up to 50 micron in size, thats interesting as our mister nozzles (If you have a MK nozzle with a Tefen Tip) they put out 50 microns! Now the microns can be larger, if not running at spec with PSI (I believe its MK PSI to put out the 50, so 100psi will do it). However the point was/is, the MK nozzles may not be as unnatural as we thought, that is micron size used by aeroponics as well, so a better nozzle may be in our future. (From what I can find, the aeroponics guys use the same tefen nozzles.)


Bioactivity: We have another slow to catch on idea here. Bio active Vivaria, will naturally produce a higher amount of humidity. The entire premise of Bio active vivaria is to have a cage size, deep bin of soil, covered in leaf litter. This soil and leaf litter, will stay damp, and slowly allow the evaporation of water. This will act like a humidity sink, constantly releasing humidity into the air, day and night.

A common practice in Bioactive vivaria as well, (and personally no offense, I dont consider it fully bio, without this). Is to have "Substrate Walls" IE walls covered in cork bark, cocofiber liner (dont suggest this with chameleons), Great Stuff foam with Ecoearth or Peat Soil rubbed on it, Drylock or other clay mediums, Tree Fern Panels, the list goes on. The benefit of this aspect, is the same as the soil. Its even more surface area, that is going to be wettened and stay moist and evaporate water increase humidity.

Plants: Plants serve LOTs of Purposes in our Chameleon husbandry, they give leaves to drink from, they help remove bacteria from the air, they help to create oxygen, they give climbing surfaces, and they create Humidity!

Now I know, their is people confused how does that help, "Plants only create humidity during photosynthesis. That only raises are daytime Humidity" You would be correct, MOSTLY.

We have some exceptions, that could be included in a humidity plan to help with our night time humidity. Here is a good article, summarizing the plants in question. There is some questionable info in the article, but its good for a list of plants. https://wiki.nurserylive.com/t/top-9-plants-that-absorb-co2-at-night-as-well-best-for-indoors/315

The King (and only one I am positive of night transpiration), the Areca Palm. This Malagasy native transpires more water than any other plant I have seen. The fact that it is one of the plants that feature a secondary nighttime type of photosynthesis called Crassulacean Acid Metabolism. This causes a nighttime opening of the Stomata, which causes transpiration. a 6ft Arcea palm was found in Nasa's clean air study to transpire 1 liter of water every 24 hours. In my bio active, the driest soil, is always that around its roots, which are also extending quite far around the viv. This thing DRINKS water. The leaves are good cover foliage and attractive to boot! And now, to the most important and best tool.


"Glass" Enclosure: I use the term "Glass" in Quote marks, as I am not saying you have to run out and buy a Glass Vivarium. I simply mean a "Enclosed Vivaria" this could be a modified screen cage, a custom built cage, A Dragon Strand breeder or Clearside, the list goes on. If you want to increase humidity, the best way is to build a smaller enclosed space with plant life. This will be hands down the best way to do this.

I am always perplexed by the suggestion of screen cages. I am aware of the history of why they are a thing, I am aware of the Aquarium debacle. However in this day and age, with our new knowledge, it has always felt like an oxy moron? Are we really trying to recreate a rain forest, with high humidity, high heat, ect in a fully screened cage in a AC controlled home? We are literally setting ourselves up for failure. You are never going to keep high humidity in a screen cage in a house that has 20-30% humidity, it just isnt going to happen.

When is the last time you have seen frogs in a screen cages? Chameleons can handle lower humidity, and aquariums killed them, so we jumped to screen and there we sit. The screen cages, we use, never were and still are not a correct caging format, I firmly believe that, and I am not alone. I still see myths about glass and enclosed all the time. People say "Close off 3 sides, but leave the door, chameleons need the ventilation"

I am here to tell you, that is simply not TRUE. My 4x2x4 vivarium, has a screen top (and only 75% of that is even screen opening) and it has 2 vents, at the soil level (floor level for non bio) Those vents measure 4 inches tall, and 18 inches wide. That is MORE than plenty ventilation, plenty of people on this very site have Exo Terra glass terrariums with even less ventilation. For some reason, us glass users are the outcasts. We are the minority, and still today people think that a full side of screen is needed. ITS NOT. My chameleon has never had an RI. Its even more perplexing when I see posts from Brad and Chris Anderson, going back to 2007, speaking highly of Glass Vivariums. For at least 13 years, these vivariums have been used and worked great.

So why is this myth even still a thing? Husbandry has to change with glass, yes. You mist less yes, your basking bulb needs to be changed dimmed yes, however your Chameleon is not going to die, they are not going to be riddled with RIs. You are using more electricity to heat the screen cage, your using more water to humidify it, all for what? Ventilation that it has been shown you dont need and is actually a hindrance not a pro? Drop the dangerous fogger, and modify your Viv, use the money you were going to spend on that fogger to do it. You will save more money on utility bills, and be able to actually stop fighting to recreate a rain forest in your living room. Sorry to rant, the fact we still use and push heavily screen Irks me.


I hope that this data, helps some, and as always, looking forward to any contrasting articles, ideas, thoughts and Discussion! Thanks for reading my Novel lol :).
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
@kinyonga It did actually end up breaking 10k limit :(.

Also special shoutout to Kin, for giving me the link to Madcham article that inspired this post. These have been what I thought solely my own crazy ramblings for a long time, however after being alerted to Madchams article, that hits every single point I have been trying to get across, I had to make the thread, I am NOT as crazy and paranoid as I thought!

@Brad Can I umm get a modified over 10k post limit? Please? I would appreciate it :p. Even if its just for me :p.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
So i asked in the last thread, what would be a good way to raise a single room humidity? Im halfway temped to setup a drying rack and mist it, and put a fan nearby. Forever drying towels or something.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
So i asked in the last thread, what would be a good way to raise a single room humidity? Im halfway temped to setup a drying rack and mist it, and put a fan nearby. Forever drying towels or something.
OHHHH I completely misunderstood that. I thought you meant a cage, not a entire room.

For that, I would use a humidifier in the winter, and Evaporation Cooler (Swamp Cooler) in the summer.

I would do both in Tandem with a quality Air Cleaner system to move the air around for better ventilation and air movement in the room, as well as Hopefully pulling out bacteria, that is generated by the Humidification methods.

Your entire room will need Sealed, Rip out what is the floor medium and replace it with Vinyl flooring, Add a drain in the room, or 2. Slope the walls with Vinyl, the walls will need Painted with a high quality epoxy preferably.

Your Heating will need changed to radiant heating, and it would help to put a bunch of Arcea Palms in the room. (put enough of those, and keep them WELL watered, you might not need a humidifier)

You can defiantly create a "Rain Forest Room" just as you would a cage. Your looking at the same premise as with the cages, just on a much much much larger scale.

Incorporating a water feature into the room. Not the cage, might also work.

A water wall, with a Pond. Get some turtles or a gator or something to justify it :p. A well sealed room, with a indoor pond with a large waterfall, would likely be pretty humid. The bacteria of the water wouldn't be the same as in a chameleon cage, as no poop, filter the pond, add some fish or something and do it right, and it will be fairly natural.

Or whole home humifers like this.


Either way, bill touched on this in his podcast. Humidifying the entire room. Will require a room designed for it, and serious alterations. As well as some large, expensive devices.
 
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Molly1443

Member
Now, is this "bacteria" really an issue. I would say YES! I have in my own fogger examples noticed a slimy film, like substance, I have read this slime is a bacteria, that can cause RI issues even in humans. Also Nightanole mentioned the same finding tonight.



This piece of data, is from. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/heat-humidity-ri.173549/

Where the conclusion so far seems to be that the Heat + Humidity create RIs, also doesn't hold water. The fogger on the otherhand....

A Solution:
There really isnt one, that is completely perfect or fully proven yet. However myself and some others in the hobby, have found some stop gaps and half tested ideas. I will share those with you. Raising the humidity at night, is a good goal. It is closer to nature for alot of species, and its not something we should be completely opposed to, we just need to change the methodology.

A Night Mist: A mist right after lights out, is a very good way to help raise the humidity at night. Its success is very dependent on other factors however. This alone will not give you high humidity at night, but its use with one or more of below techniques is a good start, using all of these in tandem is the best chance you have of 80% or more at night that we are looking for.

I dont advise this as a long mist, just a short burst. 30 secs, a minute, just enough to sprinkle a little water over everything so it can evaporate through the night. The bacteria, is still a thing with this method. the difference? Its not being pushed into a chams lungs in large quantity.

A fun fact, as we have thought alot that our Misters are very far from Nature. The Madcham Article, speaks about the Fogs in Madagascar, they mention a thick wetting fog, that is found there. They say its up to 50 micron in size, thats interesting as our mister nozzles (If you have a MK nozzle with a Tefen Tip) they put out 50 microns! Now the microns can be larger, if not running at spec with PSI (I believe its MK PSI to put out the 50, so 100psi will do it). However the point was/is, the MK nozzles may not be as unnatural as we thought, that is micron size used by aeroponics as well, so a better nozzle may be in our future. (From what I can find, the aeroponics guys use the same tefen nozzles.)


Bioactivity: We have another slow to catch on idea here. Bio active Vivaria, will naturally produce a higher amount of humidity. The entire premise of Bio active vivaria is to have a cage size, deep bin of soil, covered in leaf litter. This soil and leaf litter, will stay damp, and slowly allow the evaporation of water. This will act like a humidity sink, constantly releasing humidity into the air, day and night.

A common practice in Bioactive vivaria as well, (and personally no offense, I dont consider it fully bio, without this). Is to have "Substrate Walls" IE walls covered in cork bark, cocofiber liner (dont suggest this with chameleons), Great Stuff foam with Ecoearth or Peat Soil rubbed on it, Drylock or other clay mediums, Tree Fern Panels, the list goes on. The benefit of this aspect, is the same as the soil. Its even more surface area, that is going to be wettened and stay moist and evaporate water increase humidity.

Plants: Plants serve LOTs of Purposes in our Chameleon husbandry, they give leaves to drink from, they help remove bacteria from the air, they help to create oxygen, they give climbing surfaces, and they create Humidity!

Now I know, their is people confused how does that help, "Plants only create humidity during photosynthesis. That only raises are daytime Humidity" You would be correct, MOSTLY.

We have some exceptions, that could be included in a humidity plan to help with our night time humidity. Here is a good article, summarizing the plants in question. There is some questionable info in the article, but its good for a list of plants. https://wiki.nurserylive.com/t/top-9-plants-that-absorb-co2-at-night-as-well-best-for-indoors/315

The King (and only one I am positive of night transpiration), the Areca Palm. This Malagasy native transpires more water than any other plant I have seen. The fact that it is one of the plants that feature a secondary nighttime type of photosynthesis called Crassulacean Acid Metabolism. This causes a nighttime opening of the Stomata, which causes transpiration. a 6ft Arcea palm was found in Nasa's clean air study to transpire 1 liter of water every 24 hours. In my bio active, the driest soil, is always that around its roots, which are also extending quite far around the viv. This thing DRINKS water. The leaves are good cover foliage and attractive to boot! And now, to the most important and best tool.


"Glass" Enclosure: I use the term "Glass" in Quote marks, as I am not saying you have to run out and buy a Glass Vivarium. I simply mean a "Enclosed Vivaria" this could be a modified screen cage, a custom built cage, A Dragon Strand breeder or Clearside, the list goes on. If you want to increase humidity, the best way is to build a smaller enclosed space with plant life. This will be hands down the best way to do this.

I am always perplexed by the suggestion of screen cages. I am aware of the history of why they are a thing, I am aware of the Aquarium debacle. However in this day and age, with our new knowledge, it has always felt like an oxy moron? Are we really trying to recreate a rain forest, with high humidity, high heat, ect in a fully screened cage in a AC controlled home? We are literally setting ourselves up for failure. You are never going to keep high humidity in a screen cage in a house that has 20-30% humidity, it just isnt going to happen.

When is the last time you have seen frogs in a screen cages? Chameleons can handle lower humidity, and aquariums killed them, so we jumped to screen and there we sit. The screen cages, we use, never were and still are not a correct caging format, I firmly believe that, and I am not alone. I still see myths about glass and enclosed all the time. People say "Close off 3 sides, but leave the door, chameleons need the ventilation"

I am here to tell you, that is simply not TRUE. My 4x2x4 vivarium, has a screen top (and only 75% of that is even screen opening) and it has 2 vents, at the soil level (floor level for non bio) Those vents measure 4 inches tall, and 18 inches wide. That is MORE than plenty ventilation, plenty of people on this very site have Exo Terra glass terrariums with even less ventilation. For some reason, us glass users are the outcasts. We are the minority, and still today people think that a full side of screen is needed. ITS NOT. My chameleon has never had an RI. Its even more perplexing when I see posts from Brad and Chris Anderson, going back to 2007, speaking highly of Glass Vivariums. For at least 13 years, these vivariums have been used and worked great.

So why is this myth even still a thing? Husbandry has to change with glass, yes. You mist less yes, your basking bulb needs to be changed dimmed yes, however your Chameleon is not going to die, they are not going to be riddled with RIs. You are using more electricity to heat the screen cage, your using more water to humidify it, all for what? Ventilation that it has been shown you dont need and is actually a hindrance not a pro? Drop the dangerous fogger, and modify your Viv, use the money you were going to spend on that fogger to do it. You will save more money on utility bills, and be able to actually stop fighting to recreate a rain forest in your living room. Sorry to rant, the fact we still use and push heavily screen Irks me.


I hope that this data, helps some, and as always, looking forward to any contrasting articles, ideas, thoughts and Discussion! Thanks for reading my Novel lol :).
Wow I love your plants facts section. I actually did a research on photosynthesis and cellular respiration last year. Plants are awesome ‍
Thank you for the nice reading!
I completely agree that it’s not realistic to think we are going to acheve 80% + humidity in a dry room that makes my nose bleed in winter as it’s too darn dry.
A change must be made in the way we keep our .
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
So what is the difference between a humidifier (you recommend) and a fogger (you don't recommend)? Both create mist via ultrasonic technology. Has the droplet size been studied that well? I also have a little bit of a problem with the example provided on droplet size from what is absorbed in a human lung. The vast differences in the physical nature and biology of the chameleon lung was briefly stated in the referenced article but I don't think it was given proper consideration. Is the droplet size a factor in human because of the ability to enter the very tiny alveoli in the lung? Chameleons do not have that as their lung is like an empty sac with blood vessels in the walls for the most part. Even in species with a more developed lung where there are areas with more branching alveolar structures they are still a far cry away from the structure of a human lung, and even air exchange can be different physiologically. So is that research really applicable across species here?
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
So what is the difference between a humidifier (you recommend) and a fogger (you don't recommend)? Both create mist via ultrasonic technology. Has the droplet size been studied that well? I also have a little bit of a problem with the example provided on droplet size from what is absorbed in a human lung. The vast differences in the physical nature and biology of the chameleon lung was briefly stated in the referenced article but I don't think it was given proper consideration. Is the droplet size a factor in human because of the ability to enter the very tiny alveoli in the lung? Chameleons do not have that as their lung is like an empty sac with blood vessels in the walls for the most part. Even in species with a more developed lung where there are areas with more branching alveolar structures they are still a far cry away from the structure of a human lung, and even air exchange can be different physiologically. So is that research really applicable across species here?
I just want to add that the inference in cyber’s post that

1) humans need less than 5mic droplet size
2) chameleons are smaller than humans
3)therefore chameleons probably need smaller

does not follow. Just exchange ‘water droplets’ with ‘air particles’ and you’ll see why.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
So what is the difference between a humidifier (you recommend) and a fogger (you don't recommend)? Both create mist via ultrasonic technology. Has the droplet size been studied that well?
I would not recommend a humidifier, I do not think humidifier is the best option. Only in the case of Nightanoles premise did I or would I recommend a humidifier.

In Nightanoles question, I took it as he wants to humidify the entire room. (well thats what he said). In that specific case, I think the situation is different. He is not blasting bacteria ridden "Fog" onto the animal. I would still add a air cleaner, to help remove any bacteria that humidifier I linked might produce, although they by nature produce magnitudes less than the "foggers" we are looking at. As well as fill the room with LARGE Arcea palms, that will clean the air, and help raise the humidity as well.

The Humidifier I suggest to Nightanole, is nothing like the cheap "cool-mist Ultra Sonic Humidifiers" that are being used in the hobby. It doesn't have a "tube" that collects bacteria and gets slimy. It is steam based, it electrocutes the water, creating heat and steam, there is "Fog" look to it, just humid air, that is also filtered in the fan system that is provided with it.

It is also a complete sealed system, with a direct water main hook up. There is no open reservoir for bacteria to thrive. If bacteria makes it in, the sealed system kills it, with the immense heat, the purification filters, both on the water supply and the fan output. The "Steam Humidifiers" are magnitudes safer than Cool Mist ones, and the one linked, is even safer than the cheap models of those. However, as seen it also carries a thousand dollar price tag, and a complete redesign of the room to safely utilize it for the needs.

As to the droplet size, what I listed is NOT an ultrasonic humidifier, its a steam based humidifier, there is no particle size, it is water in a gaseous form that is being produced. Which can fully penetrate the lungs, of anything.

The only way I would even begin to consider this personally, or recommend that to anyone, is if they had a large scale breeding program. Where they have stacked cages, on every wall, and isles of cages between them. That is the only way I would see the cost and work required being justified. I have seen rooms like this, by Large snake breeders in rooms that held 1000s of snakes. And a now closed pet store, in Arizona that was MASSIVE, and had many endangered species of animal, and LARGE reptiles, 700 lb tortoises (I forget their name now, it starts with an A, they were massive, they had 4 of them!), fully grown Savannah monitors ect. The humidity in the building was always 70% or more, it was hot and muggy in there. They used very very large water features, like I also mentioned. There is a youtuber that has a similar building to this as well.



I also have a little bit of a problem with the example provided on droplet size from what is absorbed in a human lung. The vast differences in the physical nature and biology of the chameleon lung was briefly stated in the referenced article but I don't think it was given proper consideration. Is the droplet size a factor in human because of the ability to enter the very tiny alveoli in the lung? Chameleons do not have that as their lung is like an empty sac with blood vessels in the walls for the most part. Even in species with a more developed lung where there are areas with more branching alveolar structures they are still a far cry away from the structure of a human lung, and even air exchange can be different physiologically. So is that research really applicable across species here?
Good point, they do mentioned the droplet size to enter the alveoli, that is actually closer to 1 micron, to enter there. .5 is as I understand from the light reading on it to make it at all into the alveoli

Madcham did mention, that as well, we really dont have the data on a chameleon. someone needs to test that very idea with a chameleon to give us actual data. That is why I glossed over that particular point, as a we dont know. There is some theory, on both sides, who is right we really dont know.

We also dont know, that these cheap Chinese disc foggers can actually produce at 5 micron. Thats very small, and the units that are proven and have the data to show you they can produce that low, are much much more expensive.



I just want to add that the inference in cyber’s post that

1) humans need less than 5mic droplet size
2) chameleons are smaller than humans
3)therefore chameleons probably need smaller

does not follow. Just exchange ‘water droplets’ with ‘air particles’ and you’ll see why.
Do we have study on Chameleons ability to process air particles above 5 microns? Air that is above 5 microns is contamination, all air particles that are in the coarse particle region (2.5-10microns) are things you should not be inhaling, see dust, debris, contaminants. The air you want to be breathing, is less Oxygen is 0.0005 microns.
https://www.environment.gov.au/resource/particles

The entire premise behind using a fogger is "Chameleons lungs use humidity like ours use oxygen" However, Humidity is a Gas, a vaporized water, not a water molecule anywhere NEAR 5 microns.

Air that is 37c, humidified to 98% is only 3.5 microns in size. Hot air holds more water than cooler air, which increases the size of the micron by alot.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/027868290929314

The instructions that F10 provides, also says to use less than 5 microns.
2020-02-16 13_57_31-download.png


https://www.fda.gov/media/91838/download

@Alexl Would be best to ask, on her thoughts of the micron size. As the micron size needed vs Humans, was from her article.

Also I dont know that Alexs reasoning was, but I dont think it is as simple as "Chameleons are smaller". Alex is a Vet, that specializes in Chameleons to be fair.



I honestly cant even fathom a way to test the idea. The premise, that all hydration could be supported by humidity, or fog. Is in anyway I can think of not provable.

If you have a high humidity environment or use a fogger, you will end up with condensation. This condensation can be in turn lapped up by the animal for hydration if the humidity is not enough.

Which also leads to a good point, that I didn't think of until now looking for the data. The other statement surrounding the fogger, is that the animal will place themselves right below the fogger. This is thought as a way to increase the water entering the lungs, however in doing this practice the animal is allowing the water to condensate on them, most importantly on the rostral crest, where it builds up, funnels down and they can open their mouth to drink it. That very behavior is similar to how I see them drink from a mister.

So the statement, that they dont drink water, but rather inhale it, is backed by they sit under the "fogger" however sitting under the fogger, allows them to drink the foggers water. The evidence of proof, is evidence of fallacy as well.
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am familiar with Alexl :)
IK that was to Kaizen :).

While your here though, is there no data about the micron size as pertaining to nebulization of medicine for Chameleons? Or Reptiles at all? That may be the best place for us to look, I cant find any, but maybe you know of some? Other than the F10 of course.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Ha, most definitely not. Not that I'm aware of anyway. That level of research just doesn't exist for many things in reptiles. You can find studies on biology, physiology, anatomy, natural habits and diet in some species, not even all. In medicine you are lucky to get any pharmacokinetic studies specific to the species you're looking for. Beyond that it's just if someone had a specific interest and did a study. The sad thing about reptile medicine is there is a lot that we do not know, and even sadder is that there is not readily available funding for those kinds of studies. The most I would expect to find is if there is clinical improvement after nebulization. Discussion of micron size affecting absorption would be doubtful. I'll check the journals nonetheless but don't get your hopes up.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
This thread has given me a lot of food for thought. It's going to take me a while to absorb it all.

There's still so much that needs to be studied with chameleons and other reptiles....as ferritinmyshoes said...it depends so much on someone having a specific interest and doing a study.

Back to the reading!
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
I would not recommend a humidifier, I do not think humidifier is the best option. Only in the case of Nightanoles premise did I or would I recommend a humidifier.

In Nightanoles question, I took it as he wants to humidify the entire room. (well thats what he said). In that specific case, I think the situation is different. He is not blasting bacteria ridden "Fog" onto the animal. I would still add a air cleaner, to help remove any bacteria that humidifier I linked might produce, although they by nature produce magnitudes less than the "foggers" we are looking at. As well as fill the room with LARGE Arcea palms, that will clean the air, and help raise the humidity as well.

The Humidifier I suggest to Nightanole, is nothing like the cheap "cool-mist Ultra Sonic Humidifiers" that are being used in the hobby. It doesn't have a "tube" that collects bacteria and gets slimy. It is steam based, it electrocutes the water, creating heat and steam, there is "Fog" look to it, just humid air, that is also filtered in the fan system that is provided with it.

It is also a complete sealed system, with a direct water main hook up. There is no open reservoir for bacteria to thrive. If bacteria makes it in, the sealed system kills it, with the immense heat, the purification filters, both on the water supply and the fan output. The "Steam Humidifiers" are magnitudes safer than Cool Mist ones, and the one linked, is even safer than the cheap models of those. However, as seen it also carries a thousand dollar price tag, and a complete redesign of the room to safely utilize it for the needs.

As to the droplet size, what I listed is NOT an ultrasonic humidifier, its a steam based humidifier, there is no particle size, it is water in a gaseous form that is being produced. Which can fully penetrate the lungs, of anything.

The only way I would even begin to consider this personally, or recommend that to anyone, is if they had a large scale breeding program. Where they have stacked cages, on every wall, and isles of cages between them. That is the only way I would see the cost and work required being justified. I have seen rooms like this, by Large snake breeders in rooms that held 1000s of snakes. And a now closed pet store, in Arizona that was MASSIVE, and had many endangered species of animal, and LARGE reptiles, 700 lb tortoises (I forget their name now, it starts with an A, they were massive, they had 4 of them!), fully grown Savannah monitors ect. The humidity in the building was always 70% or more, it was hot and muggy in there. They used very very large water features, like I also mentioned. There is a youtuber that has a similar building to this as well.





Good point, they do mentioned the droplet size to enter the alveoli, that is actually closer to 1 micron, to enter there. .5 is as I understand from the light reading on it to make it at all into the alveoli

Madcham did mention, that as well, we really dont have the data on a chameleon. someone needs to test that very idea with a chameleon to give us actual data. That is why I glossed over that particular point, as a we dont know. There is some theory, on both sides, who is right we really dont know.

We also dont know, that these cheap Chinese disc foggers can actually produce at 5 micron. Thats very small, and the units that are proven and have the data to show you they can produce that low, are much much more expensive.





Do we have study on Chameleons ability to process air particles above 5 microns? Air that is above 5 microns is contamination, all air particles that are in the coarse particle region (2.5-10microns) are things you should not be inhaling, see dust, debris, contaminants. The air you want to be breathing, is less Oxygen is 0.0005 microns.
https://www.environment.gov.au/resource/particles

The entire premise behind using a fogger is "Chameleons lungs use humidity like ours use oxygen" However, Humidity is a Gas, a vaporized water, not a water molecule anywhere NEAR 5 microns.

Air that is 37c, humidified to 98% is only 3.5 microns in size. Hot air holds more water than cooler air, which increases the size of the micron by alot.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/027868290929314

The instructions that F10 provides, also says to use less than 5 microns.
View attachment 258831

https://www.fda.gov/media/91838/download

@Alexl Would be best to ask, on her thoughts of the micron size. As the micron size needed vs Humans, was from her article.

Also I dont know that Alexs reasoning was, but I dont think it is as simple as "Chameleons are smaller". Alex is a Vet, that specializes in Chameleons to be fair.



I honestly cant even fathom a way to test the idea. The premise, that all hydration could be supported by humidity, or fog. Is in anyway I can think of not provable.

If you have a high humidity environment or use a fogger, you will end up with condensation. This condensation can be in turn lapped up by the animal for hydration if the humidity is not enough.

Which also leads to a good point, that I didn't think of until now looking for the data. The other statement surrounding the fogger, is that the animal will place themselves right below the fogger. This is thought as a way to increase the water entering the lungs, however in doing this practice the animal is allowing the water to condensate on them, most importantly on the rostral crest, where it builds up, funnels down and they can open their mouth to drink it. That very behavior is similar to how I see them drink from a mister.

So the statement, that they dont drink water, but rather inhale it, is backed by they sit under the "fogger" however sitting under the fogger, allows them to drink the foggers water. The evidence of proof, is evidence of fallacy as well.
Yes, I was simply making the point that the inference doesn’t go through. In fact, you didn’t actually commit to the inference anyways, you just suggested that it might make sense. Anyways, I’m sure you’ve done your research, and I agree with a lot of what you said.
 

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
I honestly cant even fathom a way to test the idea. The premise, that all hydration could be supported by humidity, or fog. Is in anyway I can think of not provable.
You would have to measure ins and outs and have a very accurate scale. Not likely with something as small as a chameleon.
 

Kaizen

Chameleon Enthusiast
This might be relevant: We have a countertop ice maker. The instructions are to clean it very infrequently, as even very dilute chemicals can deteriorate the ice making metal surfaces. Instead, every night, the machine is drained and allowed to dry out completely. This, or so I am told, prevents bacteria growth. I wonder whether simply using fans through our fogging pipes during the day might have the same effect?
 
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