Foggers, a Tool or a Danger?

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Unfortunately, in this respect I have to agree on the dangers. Because unfortunately probably 80-90% of your every day keepers... you know, the ones that worry about spending more than what their chameleon cost when they bought it.
Probably shouldn't practice this because they probably dont keep up with hygiene as is, let alone are willing to add an extra step of it.

In this mindset there is no 'fool proof' method unfortunately is my belief. We still constantly battle people not even finding out what lighting is proper, let alone the particulars of fogging at night, temp drops, etc.
So there will always be people that dont look into what they actually need to do, and will simply hipfire husbandry until a problem occurs.

It's an unfortunately inevitable fact regardless of what information is available. You will find those who dont find it or dont follow it properly.
Yes, but there is Safer, and I would argue easier, more forgiving husbandry methods, that can achieve this goal. That are easier to reccomend harder to mess up, and will take care of all mentioned issues.

If we get off the Screen Cage wagon. We push Glass, with Bioactive soil instead of potted plants, and tell them to mist at night.

Boom, that easy. They no longer have to worry about keeping everything sterile, the Bio takes care of that. They dont have to worry about night drop, Glass holds its own temperatures separate from the room, this will be easier to create basking areas with less wattage, and control the temps to be cooler than ambient at night. The soil in the Bio, as well as the plants are a "Humidity Sink", on top of the glass viv staying more humid by design, have them add a night mist to ensure high humidity at night. The chimney effect ensures there is a temperature gradient in the viv as well, with the bio active soil also helping with this. The chimney effect also ensures proper ventilation. With I would argue, maybe more air movement than a screen cage.

Its more in tune with nature, its more foolproof, it requires less (pretty much none) cleaning, it saves money in the long run (less wattage needed to heat, less water needed per mist).

We are holding on to these archaic screen cages because aquariums killed chams 20 years ago, its counter intuitive counterproductive, and not seen with any other rain forest or rain forest outskirt species. We keep trying to create a rainforest, with our houses conditions, its not ever going to happen. We need a box to create a rainforest in, which a screen cage is not.

Screen cages still have there purpose, where I would suggest and back them. For people who keep chams outside, Screen is great. For people in Florida, screen is likely again good. For the people anywhere else, outside of a tropical environment themselves, or with central air rooms, ect, Glass is far and away the superior answer IMO.

Of course, when I say glass, I just mean enclosed BTW, doesnt have to be glass, a wooden viv, or a PVC, or things like Bills Breeders with Clear side doors, or his Vivarium series, would all also work just as well.

Which now you have of course seen my very passionate husbandry subject. I have been singing that tune for a very very very long time. I was singing it when "Glass Will kill your Cham" despite articles by Chris Anderson from 2010, and Posts from Brad from 2008, showed great results. The community has finally started to take to it. I have seen a drastic change in that theoruim, people are starting to view glass as a viable option, the hate is not nearly as bad. I have even been seeing glass pop up in the couple Facebook groups I still remain, and am always waiting for "Your going to kill your cham, get screen" and that does still pop up sometimes, but not nearly as bad as it did when I joined this forum, years ago.

I was hoping you had a magic evaporator pad solution :)

I havent had much luck finding a quality warm-mist humidifier/steam vaporizer. The only one i havent killed its the 1960's/70's harvest gold one that im pretty sure has killed several people from lack of safety :p
I think, like you had mentioned Evap pad. A swamp cooler, would be the safest bet. This will likely lower room temp however, maybe good if Nighttime is your only goal?

Likely is bacteria risk there too, but much less as your not taking bacteria and turning it to small particles. I am not so sure that the bacteria starts in the lines, or that that bacteria is the problem. My concern is bacteria that starts in the reservoir, infects the water, is turned into fog, and then coats the lines. Chicken or Egg, we really dont know which is happening in each case however, there may be studies on that aspect and we should seek them out.

Taylor, not seeing bacteria in the lines, with constant airflow to them is a good sign, that it might be JUST the lines however.

It wont provide the "Visual" fog effect, but will provide the humidity.

Googling the bacteria risk of the Swamp cooler, all I come up with is talk of Legionella bacteria, which causes a disease in humans, I am not sure if that can affect chameleons. There may still be other bacteria concerns, I am not sure.


I can say after I read this I checked my fogger and I had a nasty slime in the port. Turned it off immediately
Ya probably a good time to clean that :p. The Articles in regards to humans, said they can be safe to use. However they must be thoroughly cleaned every few days.

Just like the waterfalls the community is so adamant against. Which is why I mentioned that, it feels like a similar case. Why say dont put a water fall which raises humidity, its a bacteria issue, and in the same breath but do use a fogger.

Both come with the same risk, and the same concern.
 
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Rst_Cham

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi, this topic is of interest to me. Can’t claim I’ve read every word in this thread or pretend that I understand it all (NOT a scientist, I just have one 13 month old Panther Cham) so I hope you guys don’t mind me commenting. After listening to the hydration podcast last summer I made some husbandry changes to test out natural hydration and started running a fogger at night (12-5am) along with a tiny little fan to increase ventilation (as mentioned in the podcast). I live in Colorado where it is insanely dry and humidity is a real struggle here (god I wish I didn't have a screen cage!) My Cham did develop an RI unfortunately. Vet reviewed my husbandry and had me turn off fan, turn night fogger to low (or off), and increase basking temp, in addition to month-long course of medicine injections. Followed her advice and he recovered. But ever since I’ve been really nervous about fogging. Cant say that’s why my Cham got sick, I just don’t know, I might be doing something else wrong. I’ve kept running the fogger on low at night because if I don’t humidity gets down to 15% and I’m just not sure what else to do? I do clean the whole thing including the tube every two weeks with StarSans. I will admit that I’ve gone longer a few times in between cleanings even but there is no build-up or slime or algae or anything VISIBLE. Is this because of my location, it being so freaking dry here? Or my water (RO), or? I’m wondering why some peoples tubing gets a slime build up and some don’t.

I’m planning a build this spring for a larger enclosure (he’s currently in a 2x2x4 reptibreeze with plexiglass over the sides and screen front and top that seems too small) and I’m planning to go bioactive. His current enclosure has plants but I’m thinking if I can find one of those palms that was mentioned, would it help with humidity in his new enclosure? Or do they grow too large? Would I still need to use the fogger if I'm doing sealed wood/glass front with screen top and small screened vents on sides?
 

Taylor81

Member
Hi, this topic is of interest to me. Can’t claim I’ve read every word in this thread or pretend that I understand it all (NOT a scientist, I just have one 13 month old Panther Cham) so I hope you guys don’t mind me commenting. After listening to the hydration podcast last summer I made some husbandry changes to test out natural hydration and started running a fogger at night (12-5am) along with a tiny little fan to increase ventilation (as mentioned in the podcast). I live in Colorado where it is insanely dry and humidity is a real struggle here (god I wish I didn't have a screen cage!) My Cham did develop an RI unfortunately. Vet reviewed my husbandry and had me turn off fan, turn night fogger to low (or off), and increase basking temp, in addition to month-long course of medicine injections. Followed her advice and he recovered. But ever since I’ve been really nervous about fogging. Cant say that’s why my Cham got sick, I just don’t know, I might be doing something else wrong. I’ve kept running the fogger on low at night because if I don’t humidity gets down to 15% and I’m just not sure what else to do? I do clean the whole thing including the tube every two weeks with StarSans. I will admit that I’ve gone longer a few times in between cleanings even but there is no build-up or slime or algae or anything VISIBLE. Is this because of my location, it being so freaking dry here? Or my water (RO), or? I’m wondering why some peoples tubing gets a slime build up and some don’t.

I’m planning a build this spring for a larger enclosure (he’s currently in a 2x2x4 reptibreeze with plexiglass over the sides and screen front and top that seems too small) and I’m planning to go bioactive. His current enclosure has plants but I’m thinking if I can find one of those palms that was mentioned, would it help with humidity in his new enclosure? Or do they grow too large? Would I still need to use the fogger if I'm doing sealed wood/glass front with screen top and small screened vents on sides?
What is the current enclosure type is it screen or glass and what is your night time temperatures. Do you have any other means of increased airflow in the Room
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@cyberlocc said..."We are holding on to these archaic screen cages because aquariums killed chams 20 years ago"...aquariums didn't kill chameleons then.....improper set up of aquariums killed chameleons.

When I started keeping chameleons and other reptiles over 30 years ago, I kept all my chameleons and other reptiles in aquariums and they didn't die. Aquariums were all that were available. You just had to set up the lighting to create that infamous "chimney effect". I've said this many times over the years.

I continued to use aquariums off and on and tried cages that were made of wood with screen areas, wooden cages with sliding glass doors and some screen vented areas, and then screen cages and then partial glass and screen cages, then total glass cages with only screen lids and no other vents (custom made)...and then exo terra came out with the glass/vented ones with screen lids...I kept them....and the custom made ones I had.

When Chris wrote the article about the glass cages, I'd already been using them for years....the custom made ones I mentioned above with only screen lids and no other vents....and was glad to see that someone else had figured it out and wrote about it. Under the right circumstances...with the right attention to detail...glass cages work. (BTW...sometimes...under the right circumstances... screen cages are still a good thing! We need to be flexible.)
 

Kristen Wilkins

Chameleon Enthusiast
I clean my reserve once a week with apple cider vinegar . I do the same with our misters when in use . Sometimes I add an essential lemon oil . I have not had any issues In Over 4 years . I have one fan and it’s just a simple fan I add a sec in summer . I have low temps I have not ever had respiratory issues. (Exempting Francis) .

@cyberlocc I do agree this is a huge issue with most new keepers . Most are not going to put time into research . There should be schooling to even keep . Pass a course have a certificate or something to purchase one . I don’t know it should be like a permit like gun permits . Ok rant over !!.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
My two cents: there is no ONE way to do things correctly when it comes to keeping an animal alive. Even if there are lots of wrong ways there can be multiple successful methods and some will not be exactly what happens in nature. Keep the discussion going though because these are good questions to ask. :) (credits to Alexl for bringing the awesome pic to my attention)
 

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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi, this topic is of interest to me. Can’t claim I’ve read every word in this thread or pretend that I understand it all (NOT a scientist, I just have one 13 month old Panther Cham) so I hope you guys don’t mind me commenting. After listening to the hydration podcast last summer I made some husbandry changes to test out natural hydration and started running a fogger at night (12-5am) along with a tiny little fan to increase ventilation (as mentioned in the podcast). I live in Colorado where it is insanely dry and humidity is a real struggle here (god I wish I didn't have a screen cage!) My Cham did develop an RI unfortunately. Vet reviewed my husbandry and had me turn off fan, turn night fogger to low (or off), and increase basking temp, in addition to month-long course of medicine injections. Followed her advice and he recovered. But ever since I’ve been really nervous about fogging. Cant say that’s why my Cham got sick, I just don’t know, I might be doing something else wrong. I’ve kept running the fogger on low at night because if I don’t humidity gets down to 15% and I’m just not sure what else to do? I do clean the whole thing including the tube every two weeks with StarSans. I will admit that I’ve gone longer a few times in between cleanings even but there is no build-up or slime or algae or anything VISIBLE. Is this because of my location, it being so freaking dry here? Or my water (RO), or? I’m wondering why some peoples tubing gets a slime build up and some don’t.

I’m planning a build this spring for a larger enclosure (he’s currently in a 2x2x4 reptibreeze with plexiglass over the sides and screen front and top that seems too small) and I’m planning to go bioactive. His current enclosure has plants but I’m thinking if I can find one of those palms that was mentioned, would it help with humidity in his new enclosure? Or do they grow too large? Would I still need to use the fogger if I'm doing sealed wood/glass front with screen top and small screened vents on sides?
Well the "slime" isnt always visible, and there is likely many factors to it, as you said. The slime I experienced, was not colored, or apparent, it was like a slimy substance on the surface. You have to stick your fingers in the pipe, and feel inside of their.

The protein slime that Nightanole saw, seems to be something that is visual, at least like he said on black rubbery surfaces, may be the same stuff, however I didn't "see" the slime on my white PVC piping.

I too only use RO water, and am very very picky about my water. As I said, I removed the misting reservoir completely due to concerns of bacteria in there as well :p. Plus not having to fill it anymore is a plus. My MK, pulls directly from a 5 Stage ROs holding tank. I live in northern AZ, near your borders, at about the same Altitude, I am 7000ft (If your in Denver, I am actually 1600ft higher). So our Water is very clean without ROing it as well, I still RO it.


@cyberlocc said..."We are holding on to these archaic screen cages because aquariums killed chams 20 years ago"...aquariums didn't kill chameleons then.....improper set up of aquariums killed chameleons.
IK, I have seen you say this before, I just meant that is the statement that gets touted. I am with you though, the chimney effect can be a powerful tool when utilized correctly.


BTW...sometimes...under the right circumstances... screen cages are still a good thing! We need to be flexible.
Oh I fully agree, however in my sole opinion, the majority of keepers do not fit that circumstance.

Screen Cages are great, if you have a "Reptile Room" with lots of Air circulation, high humidity, custom heating and cooling that differs from normal to support the correct conditions, ect. Like Nightanole and me were discussing.

Outdoors caging, is another place IMO, that screen shines.

However out side of those conditions, outside of having optimal climate for a chameleon to live in your living room, I do not see the value. Your making thing harder, your trying to fight the climate of an entire room, in a small area of said room, while it is vastly different. Its counter productive.

I also still see the age old glass myths sometimes today, and I wonder if that is part of the cause. Folks were talking about blocking off the sides of a Screen cage the other day. A few of them said "Dont block the door, you need that for ventilation" Like how is this even still a thing? Tons of forum users have moved to glass, with ZERO issues, we show pictures, we tell people the ventilation is fine, and yet people still think that an entire side of the Viv has to be screen or it isn't enough.

If you have a solid side of the Viv being screen, you have just completely did away with the chimney effect, I would argue if the room doesn't have very good air flow, or something to excite movement, the chimney effect has better air movement. I really want to do a test on this, and have the equipment to do so around here somewhere, I may have to.



My two cents: there is no ONE way to do things correctly when it comes to keeping an animal alive. Even if there are lots of wrong ways there can be multiple successful methods and some will not be exactly what happens in nature. Keep the discussion going though because these are good questions to ask. :) (credits to Alexl for bringing the awesome pic to my attention)

100% Agree, where did Alexl post that? or was from private convo?

I just want to try, especially for the new keepers find a safest way, that involves the least possible ability to mess it up lol.
 
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kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
You can create a chimney effect even in an aquarium by placing the lights correctly. In a screen cage with the sides closed off I'm pretty sure it can still be done. (I'm only saying "pretty sure" because that I have not tried.)
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
I honestly dont know what all you foggers are upset about. Ultra sonic misting is a known safe way to raise humidity. All you have to do is keep your system clean. Just look how little buildup i got in 30 days using RO water. Just look how pearly white that sonic disc is, you could literally eat off of it.

IMG_20200217_170713.jpg
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
You can create a chimney effect even in an aquarium by placing the lights correctly. In a screen cage with the sides closed off I'm pretty sure it can still be done. (I'm only saying "pretty sure" because that I have not tried.)
Kind of, not really.

The key to the chimney effect, revolves around tunneling. You have to remember that Air, flows like water, it wants to take the path of least resistance.

So here is an example, from a Enclosed Door, bottom Vent, and a Full front screen. Terrible example, drawing, but it gets the point across. the lighter colors, are less air.

chimney effect.jpg



I honestly dont know what all you foggers are upset about. Ultra sonic misting is a known safe way to raise humidity. All you have to do is keep your system clean. Just look how little buildup i got in 30 days using RO water. Just look how pearly white that sonic disc is, you could literally eat off of it.

View attachment 258899
Ultrasonic misting is what we are talking about? Was this supposed to be sarcasm? That build up is DISGUSTING! I feel like Sarcasm but its hard to tell?
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I love this one,


"How is an evaporative humidifier different from an ultrasonic one? To understand, first we need to explain the difference between water vapor in the air, and water droplets in the air. When water evaporates, it changes from its liquid form to its gas form. As a gas, water molecules are dispersed in the air along with the molecules of the other gases that make up air. Water droplets, on the other hand, are tiny blobs of liquid water that are light enough to be suspended in the air, at least temporarily. The difference is important for humidifiers because water droplets can carry substances that were present in the water with them, while water vapor can not.

As mentioned before, ultrasonic humidifiers use vibrations to send water droplets into the air. Evaporative humidifiers, however, evaporate water inside the humidifier and send water vapor into the air. Some accomplish this by heating the water into steam. These are known as steam humidifiers, or as “warm mist” humidifiers if the vapor is cooled before being emitted. Other evaporative humidifiers wick the water through a filter of some kind, then blow cool air across the filter with a fan. This evaporates the water and sends water vapor into the room.

Whichever method an evaporative humidifier uses, the important thing is that the water is turned to water vapor inside the humidifier, leaving any substances that were in the water behind. We will discuss why this can be both good and bad in more detail."
https://molekule.science/should-you-choose-an-ultrasonic-humidifier-for-your-home/


The only "good" they mention is that they are very good at humidifying a room, and are energy effienct. This site is litteraly selling the things, and thats the only pros they can list for their own product...

When the people selling it, say its dangerous. Thats a problem....
 

Taylor81

Member
Yes, but there is Safer, and I would argue easier, more forgiving husbandry methods, that can achieve this goal. That are easier to reccomend harder to mess up, and will take care of all mentioned issues.
wanted to go back to this statement for a second. because no, simply the increase of humidity does not achieve the same goal.

increasing the humidity will aid in water retention, but it will do pretty much nothing as far as hydrating.
which is the goal of fogging. these are other effective husbandry methods yes, but i would not put them as achieving the same goal. cause they aren't.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
wanted to go back to this statement for a second. because no, simply the increase of humidity does not achieve the same goal.

increasing the humidity will aid in water retention, but it will do pretty much nothing as far as hydrating.
which is the goal of fogging. these are other effective husbandry methods yes, but i would not put them as achieving the same goal. cause they aren't.
I mean is the raise of humidity not the point of the fogging?

Maybe I don't understand the premise? Bill still recommends using a Dripper or mister doesn't he? Are you suggesting removing that from the equation?

Are you saying fogging and no other source of water? I'm confused.

Breathing in humid air will have the exact same effect as fogging as from a hydration standpoint.

Unless you are more referring to the way the water gathers and is seemingly drank at night, as you said earlier?

If that's the case, that's not even natural so what is the point? Chameleons do not drink fog like that in the wild, because it's real fog, that's not being blasted at them directly, it does not condense in the same way on the animal.


The best way to create a more natural fog, would be to fog from the bottom, and allow it to rise. Blasting them with a fogger tube, is extremely far from natural.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Ultrasonic misting is what we are talking about? Was this supposed to be sarcasm? That build up is DISGUSTING! I feel like Sarcasm but its hard to tell?
I was just showing the buildup on my personal ultrasonic humidifier with only a few weeks of "neglect". And this is with RO that leaves almost zero white powder, its borderline distilled. I could only imagine what 5ft of tubing looks like, since you cant really brush it out.
 

Goose502

Chameleon Enthusiast
Something to add, humidity is invisible. Any “Fogger” or humidifier that produces visible humidity is not a humidifier, it is a nebulizer. These are larger particles, that carry larger irritants. These are great for delivering meds as they are going directly to small capillary beds with very thin membranes. How humidity hydrates at night? I can’t explain that, but my expertise is in human biology, not reptilian. My concern as stated a few times, would be the cleanliness of the system. Why not just provide showers at night? Increase overall humidity, this would maintain also due to lack of evaporation since the temps are lower.
 

Taylor81

Member
I mean is the raise of humidity not the point of the fogging?

Maybe I don't understand the premise? Bill still recommends using a Dripper or mister doesn't he? Are you suggesting removing that from the equation?

Are you saying fogging and no other source of water? I'm confused.

Breathing in humid air will have the exact same effect as fogging as from a hydration standpoint.

Unless you are more referring to the way the water gathers and is seemingly drank at night, as you said earlier?

If that's the case, that's not even natural so what is the point? Chameleons do not drink fog like that in the wild, because it's real fog, that's not being blasted at them directly, it does not condense in the same way on the animal.


The best way to create a more natural fog, would be to fog from the bottom, and allow it to rise. Blasting them with a fogger tube, is extremely far from natural.
if you say so, this is where i'll just allow your belief and i'll have mine.

but fog absolutely collects... Dewdrops...

and no I did not state no other source of water. don't make assumptions cause I said they hydrate from it.

so you've observed them long enough in the wild to completely disprove the beliefs in night hydration and what happens. that the fog particles are breathed in and absorbed, ive heard theories it builds up and is swallowed. witnessed what im pretty sure is this very action taking place on cameras of mine. but ok.
who said it had to be blasted at them. where is this written. so millions of water particles around but somehow they magically stay away from the nostrils that could breathe them in. ill give you the win and bow out rather than continue.

cause i frankly dont care enough, like i said in Bill's post im not trying to convince anyone, anyone who thinks i am can pound sand. heh

dueces,
ill bow out at this point.
 
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