Call for Research Participation: Fogging in Chameleonoculture

[jamest0o0]

well, I understand your view
and position, though I do not share it.

I was in Florida several times. Hot and humid? few months in a year, freezing cold and foggy? Also many months…

I have seen in my 40years chameleons in the wild and they really do NOT drink, so why we should force them to do so in the captivity? I keep hundreds of chameleons in an area with daily dense fog and they do fabulously. They drink only at night and only if there is no fog for over a week. I sneak into their private life with cameras and instruments to measure all. I kept them with foggers for decades and had no issues and I do not speak about the common and well captivity tolerating species only, I speak about Brookesia, tiny Rhampholeons, montanes from 7000feet and South Africans and mediterraneans. All doing well in fog. I tried all natural fog outdoors and artificial fog outside and artificial fog indoors and combination…

Simply, I have experience and evidence that drinking is NOT what chameleons do at daytime and tried to do all the research in the wild and all the experiments in captivity to make it a. ia le relkication. Thousands of people have good experience with it. Most problems and hesitation comes from people that did it long time different way and are hesitant to change the winning formula.

it is your discretion to decide what you do,
I respect it, I have you all info I could

Where in Florida does it get freezing? You sound like the Floridians complaining that they do have cold weather twice a year in the 50s . It does get a little on the dry side at times there though, but mostly is wet/humid. I go there during winter and it’s still 70s most days sometimes lower or higher.

Here’s the thing, I don’t have an issue with people fogging. I don’t doubt at all that you’ve had success with it and I still appreciate your input regarding it.

 

[PetNcs]

I agree my friend (about more pathogens in ingestion vs inhalation, I’m only better at anesthesia than most everyone I know. I don’t claim superiority in anything else ). I guess my point is I think the bad bugs are already in the enclosure, but not necessarily in the fogger

I agree with that
the grammnegative pulmonary pathogens are usually airborne and they are everywhere, no fogger brings rhem there

 

[jamest0o0]

efoee mu artixle on fog has been published

since then, thousands of people ise it without any problems

I tried to explain
I quit
it is theorizing based on personal preference, this can not be beaten and leads to nothing.
yes, a horse can also survive when getting all nutrients intravenously.
swallowing chewed grass is ot the only way jow horses can feed, and somehow, some people do not like the smel of chewed hay

Hmm I’m not sure I’m totally following. I get your explanation, I accept it, and I think it does come down to a preference thing. I don’t think it’s exactly the same as giving a horse TPN verse feeding though .

 

[PetNcs]

I think maintained properly a fogger is far less likely to grow pathogenic bacteria or fungi than the plants and surfaces that a Cham would lick water off of in the cage, so the exposure to bad bugs should be significantly lower from fogging than from misting and drinking inside the cage in my opinion

This fungus species have not been implicated in pulmonary or systemic mycoses in any reptile literature that I can find, and I suspect fungal pneumonia is much less common than bacterial pneumonia
On an annual basis fungal infections are still fairly uncommon in humans. That being said the reptile immune system is far less advanced than a humans so that incidence could be significantly higher in reptiles than in humans

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099(23)00692-8

pulmonary mycoses are extrmelynrarely reported, Inhave never identified any (which does not mean much)
all we know is regretfully too little and research is slow and will not be better

 

[PetNcs]

Hmm I’m not sure I’m totally following. I get your explanation, I accept it, and I think it does come down to a preference thing. I don’t think it’s exactly the same as giving a horse TPN verse feeding though .

of course itnis wzagereated just metaphorically the personal lreference is objectively orefering the compensation seconsary mexhanism to the most frequent natural one. ot is not an opinion, it is a fact. Forst rhey do not drink even if they can, if they have enough fog. Thye dri k at night and only semipassively with rhe exception of extreme drinking. I have a laoer i. lrep which studies that. I do not want to say all its impoicagions but the vigorous and willing drinking of liquid wayer in cPtivitynos simply jsut anextreme foeced compensation mexhanism fir the ansence of fog drinking

let us not continue, we are at a dead end
I am
not here to force anything Insaid more than I wanted

 

[PetNcs]

This logic that it happens in nature so it must be good is flawed IMO. Animals adapt to survive their environments, if we did the same things nature intended us originally we’d still be dying left and right. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t natural things that are good, there are plenty. I say this as a person that likes naturalized way of doing this as well. My only point here is that just because it’s natural, doesn’t mean it’s optimal. It could and it could not…

well,
evolution is tricky
something that can be survival extrme mechanism often transfers to be a necessity
this is a key lrinciple of
soecialization
and chameleons are megaspecialists in a big number of features

e.g. feeding on some toxic food leads from adaptation to dependence. even if they developed apecial way how to
detoxicate the food and it brings constraints, the sudden change to a
non-toxic diet is causing anything from discomfort to exitus…
try give Koala anything else than eucalyptus or to Pansa raw meat… They will die soon.
What was first an adaptatio al xhallenge be omes unpardonable nexessity, as rhe adaptation lrocess introdiced anti-toxin or food-shift mechanisms that the lacknof rhe once harmul food it causing stress, discomfort and eventually long-term
death

 

[PetNcs]

Where in Florida does it get freezing? You sound like the Floridians complaining that they do have cold weather twice a year in the 50s . It does get a little on the dry side at times there though, but mostly is wet/humid. I go there during winter and it’s still 70s most days sometimes lower or higher.

Here’s the thing, I don’t have an issue with people fogging. I don’t doubt at all that you’ve had success with it and I still appreciate your input regarding it.

all good
I was in FL several times and theee times in the winter
i wanted to play golf and rhe frass was frozen in the morning…
I do not say that itnis a long period, but Inexperienced even frost


and the exteemes are well
onown though ai inderstandnitnis not alway: frozen iguanas dalling down the trees and alligators frozen on the surface of water ))
daytime is usually mild… even if the jights are cold…

have a winderful foggy day