Call for Research Participation: Fogging in Chameleonoculture

[jamest0o0]

well, I understand your view
and position, though I do not share it.

I was in Florida several times. Hot and humid? few months in a year, freezing cold and foggy? Also many months…

I have seen in my 40years chameleons in the wild and they really do NOT drink, so why we should force them to do so in the captivity? I keep hundreds of chameleons in an area with daily dense fog and they do fabulously. They drink only at night and only if there is no fog for over a week. I sneak into their private life with cameras and instruments to measure all. I kept them with foggers for decades and had no issues and I do not speak about the common and well captivity tolerating species only, I speak about Brookesia, tiny Rhampholeons, montanes from 7000feet and South Africans and mediterraneans. All doing well in fog. I tried all natural fog outdoors and artificial fog outside and artificial fog indoors and combination…

Simply, I have experience and evidence that drinking is NOT what chameleons do at daytime and tried to do all the research in the wild and all the experiments in captivity to make it a. ia le relkication. Thousands of people have good experience with it. Most problems and hesitation comes from people that did it long time different way and are hesitant to change the winning formula.

it is your discretion to decide what you do,
I respect it, I have you all info I could

Where in Florida does it get freezing? You sound like the Floridians complaining that they do have cold weather twice a year in the 50s . It does get a little on the dry side at times there though, but mostly is wet/humid. I go there during winter and it’s still 70s most days sometimes lower or higher.

Here’s the thing, I don’t have an issue with people fogging. I don’t doubt at all that you’ve had success with it and I still appreciate your input regarding it.

 

[PetNcs]

I agree my friend (about more pathogens in ingestion vs inhalation, I’m only better at anesthesia than most everyone I know. I don’t claim superiority in anything else ). I guess my point is I think the bad bugs are already in the enclosure, but not necessarily in the fogger

I agree with that
the grammnegative pulmonary pathogens are usually airborne and they are everywhere, no fogger brings rhem there

 

[jamest0o0]

efoee mu artixle on fog has been published

since then, thousands of people ise it without any problems

I tried to explain
I quit
it is theorizing based on personal preference, this can not be beaten and leads to nothing.
yes, a horse can also survive when getting all nutrients intravenously.
swallowing chewed grass is ot the only way jow horses can feed, and somehow, some people do not like the smel of chewed hay

Hmm I’m not sure I’m totally following. I get your explanation, I accept it, and I think it does come down to a preference thing. I don’t think it’s exactly the same as giving a horse TPN verse feeding though .

 

[PetNcs]

I think maintained properly a fogger is far less likely to grow pathogenic bacteria or fungi than the plants and surfaces that a Cham would lick water off of in the cage, so the exposure to bad bugs should be significantly lower from fogging than from misting and drinking inside the cage in my opinion

This fungus species have not been implicated in pulmonary or systemic mycoses in any reptile literature that I can find, and I suspect fungal pneumonia is much less common than bacterial pneumonia
On an annual basis fungal infections are still fairly uncommon in humans. That being said the reptile immune system is far less advanced than a humans so that incidence could be significantly higher in reptiles than in humans

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S1473-3099(23)00692-8

pulmonary mycoses are extrmelynrarely reported, Inhave never identified any (which does not mean much)
all we know is regretfully too little and research is slow and will not be better

 

[PetNcs]

Hmm I’m not sure I’m totally following. I get your explanation, I accept it, and I think it does come down to a preference thing. I don’t think it’s exactly the same as giving a horse TPN verse feeding though .

of course itnis wzagereated just metaphorically the personal lreference is objectively orefering the compensation seconsary mexhanism to the most frequent natural one. ot is not an opinion, it is a fact. Forst rhey do not drink even if they can, if they have enough fog. Thye dri k at night and only semipassively with rhe exception of extreme drinking. I have a laoer i. lrep which studies that. I do not want to say all its impoicagions but the vigorous and willing drinking of liquid wayer in cPtivitynos simply jsut anextreme foeced compensation mexhanism fir the ansence of fog drinking

let us not continue, we are at a dead end
I am
not here to force anything Insaid more than I wanted

 

[PetNcs]

This logic that it happens in nature so it must be good is flawed IMO. Animals adapt to survive their environments, if we did the same things nature intended us originally we’d still be dying left and right. Now, that’s not to say there aren’t natural things that are good, there are plenty. I say this as a person that likes naturalized way of doing this as well. My only point here is that just because it’s natural, doesn’t mean it’s optimal. It could and it could not…

well,
evolution is tricky
something that can be survival extrme mechanism often transfers to be a necessity
this is a key lrinciple of
soecialization
and chameleons are megaspecialists in a big number of features

e.g. feeding on some toxic food leads from adaptation to dependence. even if they developed apecial way how to
detoxicate the food and it brings constraints, the sudden change to a
non-toxic diet is causing anything from discomfort to exitus…
try give Koala anything else than eucalyptus or to Pansa raw meat… They will die soon.
What was first an adaptatio al xhallenge be omes unpardonable nexessity, as rhe adaptation lrocess introdiced anti-toxin or food-shift mechanisms that the lacknof rhe once harmul food it causing stress, discomfort and eventually long-term
death

 

[PetNcs]

Where in Florida does it get freezing? You sound like the Floridians complaining that they do have cold weather twice a year in the 50s . It does get a little on the dry side at times there though, but mostly is wet/humid. I go there during winter and it’s still 70s most days sometimes lower or higher.

Here’s the thing, I don’t have an issue with people fogging. I don’t doubt at all that you’ve had success with it and I still appreciate your input regarding it.

all good
I was in FL several times and theee times in the winter
i wanted to play golf and rhe frass was frozen in the morning…
I do not say that itnis a long period, but Inexperienced even frost


and the exteemes are well
onown though ai inderstandnitnis not alway: frozen iguanas dalling down the trees and alligators frozen on the surface of water ))
daytime is usually mild… even if the jights are cold…

have a winderful foggy day

 

[jamest0o0]

all good
I was in FL several times and theee times in the winter
i wanted to play golf and rhe frass was frozen in the morning…
I do not say that itnis a long period, but Inexperienced even frost


and the exteemes are well
onown though ai inderstandnitnis not alway: frozen iguanas dalling down the trees and alligators frozen on the surface of water ))
daytime is usually mild… even if the jights are cold…

have a winderful foggy day

Oh yeah they have their rare occurrences of that, but generally pretty warm. The summers are downright oppressive.

 

[LizardLurkin]

I have tested many during last 30yeats.
frankly, fog they make all comparable
way. the difference ai saw were just the technical sokutio. and ease if sterilisation. Very surprizingly, some really cheap ones did better job
than extremely costly ones.

Is it okay if I pick your brain some more? I just read this article and there's a couple of things I'm curious about.

1: What temperatures are best for night fogging? Here, it's advised to not fog unless your night temps drop to 67 Fahrenheit or below due to the density of the moisture paired with the warmer temperatures.
In Alaska, ironically, the winter months are warmer due to having to keep the heater running. Currently I get night drops to around 68. A little lower if I crack the window a bit.

2: Is the water best cool or at room temperature? And does it matter what type of water?
I can really only reliably grab "purified water", while most people here recommend RO water or distilled water for their misters. Maybe this is not an issue for something you're supposed to clean on a weekly basis?

3: Since it's mentioned that most foggers marketed towards reptiles use a hose, is there anything in particular you affix to the end of the hose to make the fog come out more gentle?

 

[jamest0o0]

Is it okay if I pick your brain some more? I just read this article and there's a couple of things I'm curious about.

1: What temperatures are best for night fogging? Here, it's advised to not fog unless your night temps drop to 67 Fahrenheit or below due to the density of the moisture paired with the warmer temperatures.
In Alaska, ironically, the winter months are warmer due to having to keep the heater running. Currently I get night drops to around 68. A little lower if I crack the window a bit.

2: Is the water best cool or at room temperature? And does it matter what type of water?
I can really only reliably grab "purified water", while most people here recommend RO water or distilled water for their misters. Maybe this is not an issue for something you're supposed to clean on a weekly basis?

3: Since it's mentioned that most foggers marketed towards reptiles use a hose, is there anything in particular you affix to the end of the hose to make the fog come out more gentle?

In whatever circumstance, you should be using distilled or ro/di

 

[jamest0o0]

@PetNcs a little off topic, but I wanted to get your input on something. What are your thoughts on chameleons, like veileds, eating plants like pothos which are technically toxic. Are they equipped to handle toxic plants/high oxalate content or could this be slowly harming them in any way?

Just genuinely curious

 

[PetNcs]

1: What temperatures are best for night fogging? Here, it's advised to not fog unless your night temps drop to 67 Fahrenheit or below due to the density of the moisture paired with the warmer temperatures.
In Alaska, ironically, the winter months are warmer due to having to keep the heater running. Currently I get night drops to around 68. A little lower if I crack the window a bit.

the temps should be best under 65F, the lower the better. so my humble advice is: open the window a bit more and get low 60s or even 50s, the. the fogging will be safe and efficient

 

[PetNcs]

2: Is the water best cool or at room temperature? And does it matter what type of water?
I can really only reliably grab "purified water", while most people here recommend RO water or distilled water for their misters. Maybe this is not an issue for something you're supposed to clean on a weekly basis?

paradogically or logically you get denser fog at slightly heated water temperatures but do not go for it. Room temperature is isually fine, espdcially when the overall humidity is low, then the fogging can even contribute to lowering the temp a bit due to the expansion effect
you can make fog from any thpe of water by infrasonic water, even mineral one or tapwater. The downasides are: itnis not natural (as fognin the wild is a slightly through dust and other air oarticle contaminated condensed water vapor, it means texhnically almost distilled water. Second, the minerals will cause stain on plants and equipment of the cage, glass etc. So,
best is to use demineralized water, RO water or human grade distilled water, as it is the most natural form and does not leave stain (so much)…

 

[PetNcs]

Since it's mentioned that most foggers marketed towards reptiles use a hose, is there anything in particular you affix to the end of the hose to make the fog come out more gentle?

The fog comes out of the fogger or from the hose actually through the light force off a small, integrated ventilator, but I do not feel that is somehow harsh. The fog normally pours out of the opening of the hose and the opening of the hose should be placed on the top of the cage, and it naturally falls slowly down towards the bottom of the cage, because it is by definition heavier than the dry air. If it is intense, and if it does not immediately evaporate or get out of the cage theough intense ventilation openings or mesh, it then starts filling the volume of the cage bottom up. It is may be good to mention that the fogger should actually be always placed outside of the cage and best even not at the same platform, but a little bit further, to minimize the vibrations of the piezzoelectric changer, that might interfere with the cage and the branches and cause theoretically a slight discomfort of the chameleon. It is fair to state, however that nothing like that has ever been reported and I have not observe it either.

 

[nightanole]

The fans in the humidifiers are only 4-6CFM depending on the unit. Its is very light, a computer fan would be 20cfm. and the fan is small, normally only 50mm by 50mm, by comparison a small pc fan is 80 by 80.