Heat + Humidity = RI ??

[cyberlocc]

Heat + Humidity = RI? Or does it.

The Premise:

We have touched on this lightly, in the last few "Naturalistic Humidity" and "Naturalistic Hydration" threads.

We really should make a thread about this (Done), as it is a "FACT" that gets touted an awful lot, that Heat + Humidity = RI. However in the case, of say Panthers. The humidity is 80-100% all day, during the hottest part of the day, and the hottest part of the Year, the Wet season is the hottest time in Madagascar, its hot and its humid.

Here is a weather data example from Ambilobe Madagascar.

Spoiler: Weather Data

** Weather Data for January 15, 2020 in Ambilobe Madagascar. - https://weather.com/weather/hourbyh...667ffff04bacba68a95226e0c04e575daee78b008bd12

The run down of the chart, Hottest part of the day, 29c, 84% humidity. It never dipped below 75% all day. That is Ambilobe btw, which has lower humidity than places like Andasibe, or Moasola, which there is also Panther Locales in.

Florida is the same way from what I understand, very high humidity, and very high temps. Veileds, of which I know little about have taken up residency there regardless of this fact. On top of the massive amount of Keepers in FL, that keeps their chams outdoors year round, in extremely high heat, with extremely high humidity.

The Facts:

Upon my own research, I find very little (none) of this "Heat + Humidity = RI" in any study at all. RI is a Bacterial Infection, heat and humidity alone do not create bacteria. Heat, Humidity, and Stagnant air do. This thought of Heat + Humidity was also very common in the snake world apparently, for a long time. The Snake people have long since busted this as a complete and total myth.

On the contrary, they have found the opposite to be true. Low Humidity and High Heat will cause an RI, Low Temperatures will cause an RI, and Hot and Humid + Poor Ventilation will cause an RI.

As a matter of fact, and I have brought this up before. A common RI treatment for Snakes, is to use Hot Water Humidified with saline, or F10, in a closed container. So if High Heat, Plus Humidity (what they do with the treatment above) and a anti septic medium cures RIs, how does it cause them?

It doesn't, no part of high humidity plus high heat causes an RI. Bacteria causes an RI. Bacteria in the air, is caused by optimal conditions of growth. Which is High Heat, High Humidity and Low Airflow. Then you say, well Cyber a Screen Cage is very ventilated so how can that be the case??? Yep we are getting to that in the next section .

Some Linkeys
https://www.petmd.com/reptile/conditions/skin/c_rp_pneumonia
http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html


The Myth:

A thing to keep in mind is this whole high heat + high humidity thing is fairly new as well. For Years, and going back even longer, the common husbandry technique has been mist in the morning, mist in the afternoon, mist a few hours before lights off. No one was turning basking lights off, when they misted. And everyone was not running around with constant RIs. Want a source, your here. I love reading the old threads, go back into the past, Run that scroll bar all the way back to 2008, and read read read, and when your done with that, read some more .

The issue is the opposite of what is being toted. I know Ares (and I am not picking on you!) asked Salty, his sources for why he believes this is a Myth. However the problem with that logic, is this is a new idea. One that was not stated 3 years ago, or even 4. This is a New Idea, that has been shown with NO BACKING, I have seen ZERO testing on this "FACT". This in my opinion is in poor form. The sources of this idea, or testing data should have been shown by the folks presenting this idea.


A Solution?:

Here I would like to bring up a Few Solutions. This are not proven, only my one and a couple other forum members thoughts from things we have seen. That is why the question mark .

Ventilation Increase: So with what we know, ventilation increase seems to be the most helpful fix. I am not sure how useful this will be with Screen Cages, however I venture that in Screen that is not the Cause of the RI. More so, I feel it may have to do with below.

Bioactive: Me and James talked about this notice in some detail. Since moving to Bioactive vivaria, neither mine or James animals have experienced anything resembling an RI. We wondered, if this could be a natural Plus to Bioactive, that it moves away from Bubble Cham Syndrome.

Think of the husbandry techniques used in screen. Everything that is questioned, "Should I put a carpet" - No Bacteria, "should I add moss" - NO BACTERIA, "How often should I clean my Viv" - Daily, Umm Bacteria???

This leads in my opinion what I would call the "Bubble Cham Syndrome". This is a play on the very real human condition, where babies are born with low or no immune systems. They are kept in a Quarantine Chamber, with Zero pathogens allowed to enter. The negative of this, is that this person is now destined to this life. There is plenty of movies revolving around this, but it is a real thing.

Your immune system is strengthened by using it, ever wondered what is in a Flu shot? The Flu. They give you a small dose of the flu, so that your immune system can be alerted to its existence and learn how to fight it off. That way when you actually contract the flu, your immune system says, Ohh this crap again, yep I can kill this.

By keeping chameleons as has been so common throughout the years, as "Bubble Chams" we are setting them up to have a very weak immune system. Their body has not the immune system to fight, anything. This is also likely why we in captivity see such high problems with Parasites, where in the wild they are loaded and are just fine. We are weakening their immune system, by treating them like a single germ will kill them, to the point where that actually becomes a reality.

https://www.naava.io/editorial/a-too-sterile-environment-is-harmful-for-your-immune-system/

Now again thats just a personal theory, I have no reptile specific scientific evidence to support it, however it falls in line with how a basic immune system operates. If anyone has any studies pertaining to reptiles, that contrasts this, I would love to see it.


Thoughts? Articles? Testing? is Welcomed and Encouraged.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Makes me crazy when sick snakes come in and they are “drying them out” by decreasing humidity. Funny that doesn’t seem to work but increasing humidity does. Reptiles don’t have diaphragms so they can’t cough. The best way to expel mucus and thus irritants and bacteria that may have accumulated in that mucus is appropriate or even higher humidity to keep those secretions liquid so they can move out of the respiratory tract more easily.

 

[kinyonga]

ferritinmyshoes....I understand the humidity helping...but while the humidity is high to help keep the mucus "fluid" should the temperatures be kept high or low in the cage?

 

[snitz427]

Cant speak for chams, but I personally get respiratory infections often with low humidity, not high humidity.

 

[kinyonga]

Reworded my post above to hopefully make it clearer.

 

[Goose502]

I work with human pt’s in respiratory distress, whether that be a viral or bacterial infection. Both are treated the same, using high humidity to help break up secretions. Increasing the humidity to body temp or heating it is a benefit as long as tolerated. I literally helped a trauma patient with this exact technique last night. Now temporary treatment cannot be compared to permanent husbandry, but being the majority of my pt population is immunocompromised, I have never found delivering warm or cool humidity (really nebulization) to be disadvantageous. I would agree with the theory that a continuous supply of fresh air would help immensely to prevent URI. Speaking about bioactivity, I believe the temp gradients create pockets of air movement and natural filtration by both plant and clean up crew respiration. Our CuC helps to consume any mildew and mold that could result, this must make it more difficult for viral and bacterial infestations. Then again, my science could be way off on this. I have no published studies to support my theories, just personal experience and theory.

 

[cyberlocc]

ferritin my shoes....I understand the humidity helping...but while the humidity is high to help keep the mucus "fluid" should the temperatures be kept high or low in the cage?

Thats a great question, as I have seen it go both ways. Some raise humidity in the entire viv, with normal Cool and Hot spots, some use a Container, like a sterilitie bin and a Regular heat based humidifier, some use a Cool Mist Humidifier.

I think the key, is raising the humidity. I know some say to do a mix of above, they raise the enclosures humidity totally, and also use the bin method, for 30 mins a few times a day.

I work with human pt’s in respiratory distress, whether that be a viral or bacterial infection. Both are treated the same, using high humidity to help break up secretions. Increasing the humidity to body temp or heating it is a benefit as long as tolerated. I literally helped a trauma patient with this exact technique last night. Now temporary treatment cannot be compared to permanent husbandry, but being the majority of my pt population is immunocompromised, I have never found delivering warm or cool humidity (really nebulization) to be disadvantageous. I would agree with the theory that a continuous supply of fresh air would help immensely to prevent URI.

Very helpful and good points, thank you for adding them . I think as ferrit said, being that reptiles lack a Diaphragm this is even more important to Reptiles than humans. I Would assume as understand it this is bacteria based, that like ferrit said getting out the bacteria, with the help of the fluids is the most important factor. I dont see how heat could make things worse by any means.

As a matter of fact, and I brought this up in a recent thread about foggers, the Cool Mist Humidifiers (which as you stated are more Akin to Nebulization) are actually dangerous for people.

That article (I will have to find it and link it again) had spoke of a Patient who had Serious Chronic Lung Issues, that the doctor had finally found was being caused by his Cool Mist Humidifier.

I find this to be a very interesting and important bit to the thread, as the people pushing the use of Cool Mist foggers, are also pushing the use a Fogger idea. Which is fine, I am with it, the reasons for the fogger are very agreeable. However attributing heat and humidity, to an RI, that VERY VERY LIKELY could actually be being caused by the fogger that is normally suggested in the same breath as dont use it during the day because of Heat + Humidity. This being used in tandem as they are, I feel is a disservice to the hobby. It is of very very high chance the Cool Mist Humidifier is in fact causing the problem, you blame heat, keep lowering basking temps to stop it, worsening the RI, (remember Cool temps) hurt digestion, now you have a cold sick animal, with an RI that is spreading due to the change in husbandry being exactly what the RI wants to thrive. This a collision course for disaster.

I will add that other article, in a bit for now here is another one.
http://www.lumacomfort.com/article/cold-warm-mist-humidifer-pros-cons.htm

^ is why I am trying to experiment with plants, to help find a better way for the nighttime humidity rise. Cool Mist Humidifers, are more dangerous than they are beneficial IMO. I own a 1 disc, and a 3 disc by house of hydro, I no longer use them. I seen the slimey build up, the PH change in my RO water in the tank, and I got spooked. I have not used them since, and have been trying to find a better way.

Speaking about bioactivity, I believe the temp gradients create pockets of air movement and natural filtration by both plant and clean up crew respiration. Our CuC helps to consume any mildew and mold that could result, this must make it more difficult for viral and bacterial infestations. Then again, my science could be way off on this. I have no published studies to support my theories, just personal experience and theory.

That is my understanding of how Bio-active operates, as well. Its partly what sold me on the idea. Nature has a way of dealing with that bacteria, and even leaving the good bacteria. Not all bacteria is bad, I see so often to avoid any ferts in plant soils. It was Extension of Green, who first sold me on putting that statement out of my head. He said "Plants you will find quickly are not going to make it with out nourishment, this whole anti beneficial bacteria, and anti fertilizers of any kind is not viable in longterm."

I know we see this at work with a lot of Inverts too. The Malagasy Emerald Green Pill Millipede, beautiful Pede, doesn't work in Captivity. Its said the reasoning is the beneficial bacteria in the gut is killed off, during exportation. All attempts of hobbyist keeping in captivity have resulted in starving to death. They do eat the food they are given, people have tracked the wild population found the food sources, and recreated it even. They cannot digest the foods they take, and after a couple of months die of starvation. This same thing happens with Tree Snails, and all land snails, are said to have issues dealing with new vivaria that does not include their bacteria's, moving snails frequently to "Clean" vivaria, quickly begins to result in Die offs.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

ferritin my shoes....I understand the humidity helping...but while the humidity is high to help keep the mucus "fluid" should the temperatures be kept high or low in the cage?

I have seen better results when kept at POTZ (preferred optimal temperature zone) or even a bit higher. I usually recommend increasing the basking zone by about 5 degrees. With a proper gradient then the reptile has the choice of where it would like to bask and I have seen sick reptiles utilize the warmer zones while recovering then go back to a slightly cooler zone for regular basking once they’re healthy again. Decreasing the temperature can potentially inhibit a good immune response as ectotherms’ metabolism is dependent on heat in the environment. You don’t want to slow metabolism and potentially inhibit ability to fight infection.

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks Dayna (ferritinmyshoes)... that's what I thought....POTZ or a bit better! I thought that was important for people to know!

 

[cyberlocc]

I have seen better results when kept at POTZ (preferred optimal temperature zone) or even a bit higher. I usually recommend increasing the basking zone by about 5 degrees. With a proper gradient then the reptile has the choice of where it would like to bask and I have seen sick reptiles utilize the warmer zones while recovering then go back to a slightly cooler zone for regular basking once they’re healthy again. Decreasing the temperature can potentially inhibit a good immune response as ectotherms’ metabolism is dependent on heat in the environment. You don’t want to slow metabolism and potentially inhibit ability to fight infection.

Thanks very much for this. It is extremely good to know, and helpful to the thread! I wish I could React +1000 .

Thanks Dayna (ferritinmyshoes)... that's what I thought....POTZ or a bit better! I thought that was important for people to know!

Thanks to you as well, for bringing it up! SUPER good information. It is especially helpful to have it from such a reliable Source.

I had not till today, seen a concrete answer on that aspect.

 

[Goose502]

Thank you all for a very positive, healthy discussion. Haven’t seen this in a few days, and this has been very refreshing. What are your thoughts on heating your misting reservoir? I don’t see the need, though others use this technique.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Thank you all for a very positive, healthy discussion. Haven’t seen this in a few days, and this has been very refreshing. What are your thoughts on heating your misting reservoir? I don’t see the need, though others use this technique.

I personally don't think it's necessary and can contribute to bacterial growth in the reservoir. By the time it comes out of the mister it doesn't seem to be very warm - tried it.

 

[cyberlocc]

Thank you all for a very positive, healthy discussion. Haven’t seen this in a few days, and this has been very refreshing. What are your thoughts on heating your misting reservoir? I don’t see the need, though others use this technique.

I'm a step further in crazy about my misting reservoir, cleaning it, bacteria in it. To the point where I dont have one anymore. .

My Mistking is connected directly to my RO Tank. I use Solenoids to stop it from flooding the cages and house. Also can turn 1 MK pump into using multiple different timers, for different main lines for different cages.

That also brings up a good point though, as well on the High Heat + Humidity. Cold mister water, or even room temp, will reduce the temp, when sprayed. So its really kind of hard to have High Humidity and High Temps in a Chameleon Cage. Even a fogger will reduce the temps, the basking light will work to lower the humidity again by introducing heat, which dries the air and reduces the humidity.

On top of the fact, that Hotter Air, holds more water than Colder air. Or well rather,

"—the warmed air can “hold” a good deal more moisture than the cool air. Is there some special property of warm air that lets it soak up more water vapor? Not really. It’s just that, at higher temperatures, water molecules are more likely to go into the vapor phase, so there will be more water vapor in the air. "
http://lsop.wolpe2.natsci.colostate...es/20/2014/10/WhyDoesWarmAirHoldMoreWater.pdf

So the hotter it is, the much harder it is to raise said humidity. I know this was brought up on one of the other humidity threads.

 

[nightanole]

For just a data point. I only got RI the few winters when i ran the ultra sonic mister all winter long. Anything rubber or porous in the room got coated in something that could be described as a protein scum. I gave up and the crew can just deal with 30-40% humidity for a few months. And there are plenty of thaws during that time where the humidity will shoot back to 60-75% for a few days.

My only exception right now, its lola the tegu. He will not shed if "air" humdity is below about 60%. Even living in a 16cuft peat moss tegu hole/lair, were below ground you know is well above 50% else the dirt would dry out, he cant shed with the 30-40% room humidity. The giant grow tent works, keeps the humidity at 70%, and he does shed properly. Time will tell if the lack of air flow will cause a RI.

 

[cyberlocc]

For just a data point. I only got RI the few winters when i ran the ultra sonic mister all winter long. Anything rubber or porous in the room got coated in something that could be described as a protein scum. I gave up and the crew can just deal with 30-40% humidity for a few months. And there are plenty of thaws during that time where the humidity will shoot back to 60-75% for a few days.

My only exception right now, its lola the tegu. He will not shed if "air" humdity is below about 60%. Even living in a 16cuft peat moss tegu hole/lair, were below ground you know is well above 50% else the dirt would dry out, he cant shed with the 30-40% room humidity. The giant grow tent works, keeps the humidity at 70%, and he does shed properly. Time will tell if the lack of air flow will cause a RI.

You my friend would do very well with "enclosed" caging, with Cocofiber Walls .

Were you running the fogger 24/7? Or only at night? Something that I never even thought of, until just watching Gingeros latest video is the Humidity at night.
I know, and can easily see by weather data, that humidity is 100% at night. Also been told by folks using foggers, that chameleons will sleep under the fog.

However my panthers large viv, has very high humidity low down, at night its 100%. The top of the cage, is more 70%ish. My cham has taken lately to sleeping on the highest branch (his basking branch) where it curves up, to the top. A few inches from the screen.

Edit: see I say this, and then went to check on before going to sleep myself, and tonight he is asleep in his birds nest fern... He crawled into the nest, and fell asleep lol, first time I have seen that.

Where humidity is its lowest. He use to go back and forth, but the last few weeks, he has been pretty consistent about sleeping there.

While humidity is at its lowest, the temperature there is also the highest, usually about 63-65, some nights a little cooler. Its been very cold the last few weeks, so its been dipping down into the high 50s, up there, so that may also play a part. It may just be too cold lower. My lower viv thermometer/hygrometer died, so only have the top one atm need to replace the lower one, so not sure how cold it is down there.

AZ is dry, so we use a Swamp Cooler in the summer, so the humidity will be much higher come summer. Of course I dont know the accuracy of said humidity gauge anyway, they are pretty all over the place lol. I want to find a better digital version.

 

[kinyonga]

I found this very interesting...
https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I wish I Recorded the years I had Frances . Now this was only one chameleon . This chameleon had compromised lungs which resulted in Constant respiratory infections . She was fallowed by 2 exotic vets along with many In This forum . She lived just shy of 4 years

With this experience i do believe it’s all about air flow . I do not believe the combination of to high or to low heat/humidity Is the complete culprit bad or no air flow that’s the issue ( my opinion) . now with good air flow , adding bio active . Correct clean up crew that eats molds , seconded with ones that eat fecal/dead matter you would have almost a perfect ecosystem .

I truly believe it comes down to air flow . Now I will remind everyone this is my personal opinion do you my experience . I am not a vet , biologist, scientist . I’m a simple hobbyist that had a sick girl whom I cared for for nearly 4 years .

 

[kinyonga]

@Kristen Wilkins I'm sure airflow is a big part of it as well.

 

[cyberlocc]

I found this very interesting...
https://www.madcham.de/en/nebel-und-nebler/

That has to be a new article?

I love Madcham, and try to read anything they add, I wish they would date.

That Article, displays my issue with Foggers, entirely. That is the same thoughts I came to, for the same reasons. Its great to see, that others with MUCH more experience and knowledge, have had the same thoughts and conclusions.

I have been singing that song for a long time, Fog in the form our "foggers put out" are too large of particles to be hydrating. Humidity and that Fog is not the same thing. Bacteria is a major concern of mine (and it seems theirs, they even mention the slime and that me and Night have seen).

This is what set me down the path of finding other options, of which lead me to thinking about Swamp Coolers, and then with the still having a bacteria risk, pushed my idea to plants, and the Arcea Palm, most importantly.

Like you have NO IDEA how good this article makes me feel. I was starting to think I was a nut job and was freaking out for no reason, until this thread today, and now this article. You have made my YEAR kinyonga.

 

[kinyonga]

I don't remember ever seeing it before.
It is dated...2014 @cyberlocc