Panther M 2 Years Old - Something off

[naterowley]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chamelon, Male, 2 years old, in my care 2 months
• Handling - not often, never grabbing unless it was for medication, only if he walks on hand to check out body and stuff
• Feeding - Crickets, dubia, when i took in was told 10 crickets every other day, im down to 7 “LG” crickets every other day, gut load with carrots and endive / escarole
• Supplements - Arcadia insectivore schedule from website, Arcadia EarthPro A, Calcium Pro MG and Revitalize D3
• Watering - 2-3min mist in AM, 2min mist after basking off and 2-4min mist at night when sleeping, over night fogging
• Fecal Description - Urate is off White with a hint of darkness, not bright but def not yellow at all, feces almost has a “sack“ around it
• History - Was taken to vet right after i took him in due to him closing one eye like it was bothering him, prev owner actually covered the vet visit so not a bad rehoming situation at all, they still have a chameleon. Vet is in Cleveland / Barberton OH. They did an eye rinse and gave 2 meds oral and eye drops. Seemed to fix it for most part but the eye like a week later started to close again, always the same eye, not often at all but rubbing on branches and could just tell it’s bothering him.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen cage converted hybrid with the yard sign things Chameleon academy suggested with window treatment on door, so only part that is flowing is bottom and top
• Lighting - Arcadia 6% UVB, 36” fixture (the new one is 24”), 60w halogen for basking, a daylight LED bar and plant light
• Temperature - Ambient temp at top of enclosure is around 73ish, heat gun on chameleon while basking after 10mins under it on his highest point hits 85-86, ambient in non basking area lower down is 70ish depending on room temp, overnight it gets to around 65 in there, i have viv electronics thermometer in diff areas
• Humidity - i have these little things that i placed around the cage to get readings mornings its around 90-100 humidity by late day it’s 55-60 humidity after everything has dried out
• Plants - Pothos, Chinese evergreen, prayer plant, money tree and monstera
• Placement - In my office, not much traffic, no fans or heater vents nearby on opposite side of room
• Location - Alliance, OH

Current Problem - Can UVB bulb being bad cause the described behavior? When he’s active he’s active! But he slows down sometimes and closes both eyes now sometimes over the past couple days. I have done saline drops in the eye daily per vets advice if it starts again and it has, i describe below what and why I’ve done it, I haven’t posted in forums in YEARS so apologies if i did something wrong. Today he was the most lethargic, which caused me posting. But he was still active and everything earlier but he “slowed” down and it’s freaking me out.

I’m gonna post some pics of his eye(s) and let me know if you need anymore detail about this stuff, i look forward to hearing from someone

I’ve been lurking, and reading about solar meters so i bought a suggested cheaper one in this thread that was posted to check some parameters on UVB due to off behavior

Nextav UV Detector for Measuring Sun Light UV Level - Portable Handheld Sun Light UV Detector (Model 3B) https://a.co/d/0NdhrIW

@nightanole suggested this for basic readings

that was suggested, and I checked my UVB bulbs and im only getting 0.5 on my fixtures, i have 4 enclosures (only 1 chameleon) i checked on them and i can’t seem to get ratings on any of my t5 HO bulbs past 0.5, i can’t get anything to register under the screen from the uvb it’s a 6% Arcadia that’s about 6months old from what i was told if hold it directly under the bulb w/o screen filter i get 0.5, i know this model does 0.5 steps. I went outside in sunlight and was getting 2.5 - 3.0 with it so it’s def reading something and my tegu has a mercury vapor bulb and it grabs a reading. I have a new fixture / bulb ordered and im gonna end up prob buying the solar meter 6.5 especially keeping multiple reptiles.

 

[naterowley]

Pics

 

[Camiezone]

Is it both eyes ? Definitely beeds more uvb if your only getting 0.5 on reading. The mesh blocks about 50% off the uvb rays, I use 12% arcadia, but then hang fixture higher from enclosure. I have had some issues w supplememts before, seem to do best with repashy calcium and arcadia pro earth. I gut load heavy. With all sorts of fruit n veggies as well as rapashy bugburger. I also 2 times a months dilute local bee pollen granules w water and put it with my feeders for 24 hrs before being fed to chams. Seems to do wonders.
Good luck w him.
If possible, take him outside for some full rays.

 

[naterowley]

Thanks!

It WAS just 1 eye typically that would be closed sometimes while the other was alert, today he was slower moving and kinda lethargic and kept both eyes closed a lot more than ive seen him ever do, I just happened to have ordered that solarmeter for all the reptiles and it came in today and then it started to line up with what I've read in terms of what low UVB can do.

I have been panicking since getting that reading hence not waiting on the order to come in with the Arcadia bulb lol

I have the 12% for my other reptiles, so I went and bought a temporary zoomed reptisun 5.0, and im getting a reading of 2.0 to directly under the bulb which I was getting 0 - 0.5 with on the Arcadia bulb, so this light meter is measuring something and it's more than it was before. I moved the UVB to a branch that's about 7" from the top of the screen, I know safe is 8"(? I think?) maybe the light meter is off, I have an offer in on one from FB marketplace so hopefully they part with it

I took him outside in between my post when the sun was shining, the solar meter was getting 2.0 to 3.0 in that sunlight, I didnt stay out long since ambient outside was 60ish here in OH, but we got 10mins of full rays, any advice on what to do in the mean time? Keep monitoring him of course and hope his activity levels and eyes improve, should I still take him outside for a "boost" when it's sunny out?

I appreciate everyone's time and even reading this thread.

THANK YOU!

 

[Camiezone]

The natural Sun rays are always the preferred light for them. I have build outdoor setups, which are both exit and entrance proof. I leave mine outside as much as possible. I'm also in ca, got the warm luxury.
At his age, you can definitely expose him to higher rays. How tall is your enclosure? Does he normally heat regulate (move around inside enclosure)

 

[Camiezone]

Uhhh I just saw in your pics. Do you have red lights on him? They MUST go ASAP. guaranteed eye harming

 

[naterowley]

Uhhh I just saw in your pics. Do you have red lights on him? They MUST go ASAP. guaranteed eye harming

It’s a full spectrum grow light for plants, is that not okay? The spectrum it gives off is lower on the page, if anything there is a slightly purple tint to it

https://www.menards.com/main/lighti...xp-gsh2m/p-37325794924165-c-1472133557086.htm

The jungle dawn is on my list to buy, maybe it now moves up

 

[naterowley]

The natural Sun rays are always the preferred light for them. I have build outdoor setups, which are both exit and entrance proof. I leave mine outside as much as possible. I'm also in ca, got the warm luxury.
At his age, you can definitely expose him to higher rays. How tall is your enclosure? Does he normally heat regulate (move around inside enclosure)

Yeah, he’s normally over all of it, only place he won’t go to is the back part on the bottom in the back, today he wasn’t all over the place, still moved around just with less energy I guess? The enclosure is 2x2x4 and I have it on a stand that is 22” tall so the top of the cage is about 5’10

 

[naterowley]

It’s a full spectrum grow light for plants, is that not okay? The spectrum it gives off is lower on the page, if anything there is a slightly purple tint to it

https://www.menards.com/main/lighti...xp-gsh2m/p-37325794924165-c-1472133557086.htm

The jungle dawn is on my list to buy, maybe it now moves up

I didn’t mean for that to come off as defensive. If it did, I knew that the colored lights were bad. I just wasn’t sure about plant lights that still had a white cast to them with a little bit of purple. I turned it off just in case that’s it and I’ll buy a Jungle dawn

 

[MzLaurie]

Hello. Well i am a littke worried about the daily saline rinse you are doing. First fda just put out a list of 26 over the counter eye droos that are contaminated. So check on that. Also i only use saline for sensitive eyes and only let it drip onto the eye, not squirt it. If you are still putting in the eye drops, do the saline fir sensitive eyes an hour before putting in the drops. That way if there is any discharge, it can be flushed out then waiting will let it dry so he opens it before putting in the drop. i would also give that vet a followup call to make sure it should be continued or not. also check expiration date on the vit A. Agree with turning off the Colored plant light till u get the jungle dawn. The eyes look flst to me which could mean dehydration. If there is no discharge from the eye, maybe look in the creases for stuck shed. For him to be rubbing it on a branch means vision interruption or irritation. Best if luck to you and btw he is beautiful!

 

[naterowley]

Hello. Well i am a littke worried about the daily saline rinse you are doing. First fda just put out a list of 26 over the counter eye droos that are contaminated. So check on that. Also i only use saline for sensitive eyes and only let it drip onto the eye, not squirt it. If you are still putting in the eye drops, do the saline fir sensitive eyes an hour before putting in the drops. That way if there is any discharge, it can be flushed out then waiting will let it dry so he opens it before putting in the drop. i would also give that vet a followup call to make sure it should be continued or not. also check expiration date on the vit A. Agree with turning off the Colored plant light till u get the jungle dawn. The eyes look flst to me which could mean dehydration. If there is no discharge from the eye, maybe look in the creases for stuck shed. For him to be rubbing it on a branch means vision interruption or irritation. Best if luck to you and btw he is beautiful!

They are medical saline eye drops, the previous owner provided to me (she’s a nurse), I don’t shoot it in to try my own rinse, I do a drop. I started about 4-5 days ago after I saw him rubbing his right eye on things and then when he would move it around he would do the cleaning eye squish thing after looking around with it a bit. I’ve looked in his eyes and see no discharge and they look clear from what I’ve seen. He has not shed in my car yet so I have no clue on shed frequency for chameleons. My Iguanas are always shedding, my Uromastyx sheds rarely and the tegu is in between. I just don’t have any previous behavior or sheds which make it hard for me to gauge normal versus not normal

 

[naterowley]

I just took a video after basking, he was slow this morning. He seemed more lively after basking. Any additional things to note after seeing the video? The right eye has always been the problem eye since I had him causing the first vet visit when I first took over care, he is still closing both and cleaning both as seen in the video but the left eye is way more alert

 

[naterowley]

it got to around 63 outside with some sunshine, so I took him outside for about 15mins, he was active, had a very strong grip and opening both eyes but still closing both them like they hurt to open almost because he will clean them. I put him back in the enclosure and checked on him and he had both eyes closed and could tell he was like looking around with them closed still. Then he would like peek at me, look around, look up and clean them and keep them closed. He's not moving a ton but is moving around some. I gave a 2min mist to try and promote the eye cleaning thing and maybe drinking from what I've seen in other threads, he moved and hid in the pothos. Looking around and closing the eye again. He is now moving but slowly, like he's being careful, he's doing this with his eyes closed to move around. I took some close up pics when were outside of his eyes and looks okay to me? ill let someone else decide, the plant light has been off since yesterday evening and he's been under the new UVB bulb today. Should I do anything diff with feeding and supplementing? Like smaller meals more often? The two meds the vet originally gave him are Meloxidyl 1.5ml once per day for 7 days and then Ofloxacin Ophthalmic 0.3% one drop each eye every 12 hours for 2 weeks (might've been a week, can't find the box with initial instructions) When I went in there to grab the names of the meds he had moved from the pothos to the basking spot. I talked to him and made some noises to see if he would investigate what the sounds are and he wouldn't open his eyes. like if I made a sound but you could tell he was reacting to them. I know im typing and sharing a lot, I just feel like I was trying to do everything right and it sounds like ive been hurting him so I'm really feeling defeated but not given up for sure, I thought I researched and just feel blah.

If anyone has anymore advice on what to do? I'd be down to FaceTime or anything? Phone call with fellow member that's cool too? Different vet? sit and wait it out like everything is normal?

I will have to edit from my phone to attach pics

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi there. I wish I had the answer that would help your beautiful guy’s eyes. Eye problems can be from a few different things and are hard to figure out…everything from trapped particles to sinus issues to vitamin imbalances. I can tell you to try a couple of different things, but no idea if they’d be of any significant help. If he’s completed the course of prescribed eye medications, then don’t put anything else into his eyes. Even saline can add to the irritation. Look at the expiration dates of your supplements. That could play a part. I might also try changing his supplements to a phosphorus free calcium without D3 lightly dusted on every feeding except one every other week, in which you’d use Repashy Calcium Plus LoD. Even though Arcadia are good supplements, maybe a change will help. It’s mostly the source of vitamin A in it that I’m thinking about even though I think they’re the same type. Are there any chemicals or other potential irritants in your home? Even scented candles? Maybe trying a different vet and one that is known to have solid experience with chameleons? @elizaann2 can you provide your list please?
Although I doubt it’s related to his eyes, he is quite overweight and that is just bad all over for him. See how his casque is puffed up? That’s how to tell body type. It should look much more like my little guy’s below. At 2 years old, he shouldn’t still be eating so much. I feed my adults 3-4 feeders, 3 days a week. To help him to lose some weight, try getting him down to 2-3 feeders 3 days a week.

 

[naterowley]

Hi there. I wish I had the answer that would help your beautiful guy’s eyes. Eye problems can be from a few different things and are hard to figure out…everything from trapped particles to sinus issues to vitamin imbalances. I can tell you to try a couple of different things, but no idea if they’d be of any significant help. If he’s completed the course of prescribed eye medications, then don’t put anything else into his eyes. Even saline can add to the irritation. Look at the expiration dates of your supplements. That could play a part. I might also try changing his supplements to a phosphorus free calcium without D3 lightly dusted on every feeding except one every other week, in which you’d use Repashy Calcium Plus LoD. Even though Arcadia are good supplements, maybe a change will help. It’s mostly the source of vitamin A in it that I’m thinking about even though I think they’re the same type. Are there any chemicals or other potential irritants in your home? Even scented candles? Maybe trying a different vet and one that is known to have solid experience with chameleons? @elizaann2 can you provide your list please?
Although I doubt it’s related to his eyes, he is quite overweight and that is just bad all over for him. See how his casque is puffed up? That’s how to tell body type. It should look much more like my little guy’s below. At 2 years old, he shouldn’t still be eating so much. I feed my adults 3-4 feeders, 3 days a week. To help him to lose some weight, try getting him down to 2-3 feeders 3 days a week.
View attachment 346190

Thank You so much for the reply, should I encourage any certain behavior as in making sure he gets UVB, or should I try the sounds to encourage the eye movement and opening of them? Yeah, I gathered I was provided the wrong feeding schedule, I’ve been lowering the cricket count slowly by 1 a week after learning the amounts. With him eating so much could it have been too many vitamins and minerals and calcium possibly with him over eating and eating every other day I’m just guessing I’m not sure? Do you think taking him outside in the sun is still OK with the eye issues? I’m hoping to just maybe try business as usual and ensure he’s drinking and eating and maybe try to be a little less hands-on this is my first reptile sickness in almost 4 years of keeping and I know they happen I just wish I could’ve gotten more acquainted with my chameleon before he got sick to know normal behavior.

 

[CalamityCrow]

I'd say taking him outside for real life UVB is never a bad thing, given the temperatures are okay. You don't want to shock him by taking him from a like 70 degree home into 40 degree weather if that makes sense.

MissSkittles is correct hta the's overweight. I was looking at the pictures you posted - Is there any swelling around his nose? Could this be caused maybe by a sinus issue? Shot in the dark here... It's SO hard to tell what's wrong with them sometimes. :C

 

[Beman]

Hi there. First off welcome to the forum...
So this boy is very very overweight. You can tell by how extremely full his casque is. There is no defining shape and his cheek pads are full. So this is one issue. Look at @MissSkittles boy she posted in your thread. He is young but the casque shows he is healthy and not overweight.
Would need to put him on a reduced feeding plan 3 days a week of 3 feeders each feed.

Supplements - Arcadia insectivore schedule from website, Arcadia EarthPro A, Calcium Pro MG and Revitalize D3

Can you tell me the rotation your using these and how long he has been on them? If new what was he on prior.

I would remove the red led lights but I do not think that is what is causing this.

I would honestly recommend doing a really long day time misting session of 2-4 minutes. See if he can clear and clean the eye. This is the one issue I find with having all misting sessions when the cham is sleeping. I am not sure if your AM session is when he is awake. If it is then extend the period of time.

I would recommend getting the solarmeter 6.5... Yes they are expensive but they are proven in our hobby. Really want a 3 UVI at basking with that 6% UVB bulb.

 

[Camiezone]

I didn’t mean for that to come off as defensive. If it did, I knew that the colored lights were bad. I just wasn’t sure about plant lights that still had a white cast to them with a little bit of purple. I turned it off just in case that’s it and I’ll buy a Jungle dawn

Sorry, no you weren't coming of defensive, I just got super busy. How's it going today? I see some of the most knowledgeable keepers are assisting you now, so im sure with their help, he will be back to good health in no time.

 

[naterowley]

Today, he has been moving around to diff spots all through his enclosure, he's in a diff spot while I check on him every hour or so from a distance (im working from home to monitor him) eyes are alert and opening some, way more than yesterday. He has had his eyes closed while basking but when I walked in the room he opens the eyes. The right one is still looking painful to move around. Overall a lot more lively from yesterday. But still closing his eyes but less.

The previous owner gave me small sample supplements to start out in baggies, the only one with a name is a white "repti calcium" for the primary supplement. I've been doing the earth pro a every feeding but the feedings I do the other two supplements on, with the feeding schedule it's been alternating every other weekend the Calcium Pro MG and then Revitalize D3 the opposite. I hope I explained it okay, the feeding schedules and supplements aren't easy to type.

Do you think that I can just SWITCH to the 3 feeders, 3 days a week in his current state?

Also a random question I never really could find an answer to, when under the basking do chameleons close their eyes like other reptiles? My others do, but I've been hyper sensitive to the eye closing so I never know if im reading too literally in to the if the eyes are closed it's bad.

Everyone's help has been greatly appreciated and I look forward to trying all these suggestions! Any other suggestions for enclosure? I feel like I need another plant for more coverage but he doesn't go down to bottom half of his enclosure not much at all.

Thanks again and I appreciate you welcoming to this community.

 

[MissSkittles]

Today, he has been moving around to diff spots all through his enclosure, he's in a diff spot while I check on him every hour or so from a distance (im working from home to monitor him) eyes are alert and opening some, way more than yesterday. He has had his eyes closed while basking but when I walked in the room he opens the eyes. The right one is still looking painful to move around. Overall a lot more lively from yesterday. But still closing his eyes but less.

The previous owner gave me small sample supplements to start out in baggies, the only one with a name is a white "repti calcium" for the primary supplement. I've been doing the earth pro a every feeding but the feedings I do the other two supplements on, with the feeding schedule it's been alternating every other weekend the Calcium Pro MG and then Revitalize D3 the opposite. I hope I explained it okay, the feeding schedules and supplements aren't easy to type.

Do you think that I can just SWITCH to the 3 feeders, 3 days a week in his current state?

Also a random question I never really could find an answer to, when under the basking do chameleons close their eyes like other reptiles? My others do, but I've been hyper sensitive to the eye closing so I never know if im reading too literally in to the if the eyes are closed it's bad.

Everyone's help has been greatly appreciated and I look forward to trying all these suggestions! Any other suggestions for enclosure? I feel like I need another plant for more coverage but he doesn't go down to bottom half of his enclosure not much at all.

Thanks again and I appreciate you welcoming to this community.

Chameleons don’t close their eyes ever during the day unless they are sick or so very stressed beyond their limits that they just shut down and wait to be eaten. Maybe I anthropomorphize, but I like to ease slowly into reducing diets. I think of it like us having a 7 course meal every day and then all of a sudden just being given a pb&j. I still think just switching the supplements now is a good idea. With the Arcadia ones being in baggies, you don’t know expiration dates or even confirmation of what they are.