Nosy Faly's without red rain?

ataraxia

Avid Member
So are unicorns and rainless Falys that not a single person who's been to that island, 1/10 the size of Nosy Be, has ever reported seeing. Lots of people have reported seeing Bigfoot but no one's seen a spitting image Nosy Be on Nosy Faly. Think about that. Lol
Nosy faly: Approx 120 square miles/76800 acres. Thats a lot of ground, bushes and trees to cover on vacation :rolleyes: Nevermind all that though...You say not one single person...Your good buddy Olaf, the guy you have been friends with since the 90's never told you huh? The man that has probably seen more paradalis than anyone on this forum?
 
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Brad

Administrator
Staff member
The subject of this thread is about the prevalence of red-rain among the chameleon population on Nosy Faly. Given our previous difficulties dealing with this topic I think it's best we keep to the subject. Attempts to belittle other breeders or other people's animals will not help anyone. The best way out of this is education.
 

drcrossfire

Avid Member
The subject of this thread is about the prevalence of red-rain among the chameleon population on Nosy Faly. Given our previous difficulties dealing with this topic I think it's best we keep to the subject. Attempts to belittle other breeders or other people's animals will not help anyone. The best way out of this is education.
Thanks brad. That was the idea of the thread.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
What's the distance of that water channel between Nosy Faly and the mainland? On google maps it looks maybe 500 meters. Regardless of red-rain, I'm curious how different the chameleons are on both sides of that waterway. If everyone wants to send me there I'd be happy to report back ;)
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Your good buddy Olaf, the guy you have been friends with since the 90's never told you huh?
What??? Please show me where I ever said that. I've known of him and his business for close to twenty years. Never met him, talked to him, not even friends with him on Facebook. But I'm not such a conspiracy nut to assume he doesn't know what he's talking about when yes, he does have more experience with everything there than we do.

What's your source for the size of Nosy Faly, by the way? Mine say Nosy Be is approximately 120 sq miles which makes Nosy Faly more like 15. Google Earth also shows that Nosy Faly is just over 2 miles wide at it's widest point. Pretty sure it's not 60 miles long.
 

ataraxia

Avid Member
Man i screwed up twice on that one :) Sorry x 2

I read your post wrong about knowing the exporter and i was looking at nosy be.
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member

Kent67

Retired Moderator
We should ask Chris Anderson. When he was there he stayed on that peninsula (Ambato, which, as I've done before, referred to as Ampasindava earlier) and I think he said they went pretty far north and the panthers all looked like that Ambato/Blue Diamond form.
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Man, that's all real interesting especially that picture. Thinking overnight about that, the report of moving males from other locales to Nosy Faly, and the satellite image has given me a very dim view for the future of the look we want Faly's to have. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but if you look at the satellite image you'll see that the vegetation on that island is probably around 4 square miles total. Most of the east-northeast side of the main part of the island is sand with no plants. The southern projection of the island is approx. 1500 feet wide for quite some distance. There are no natural barriers. It would be easy for a couple people to survey most of it on foot in a day. (I look at maps and conduct pedestrian surveys for a living) So, I just find it hard to imagine at this point that variation as extreme as yellow backgrounds and red streaks rather than the accepted red dots, or that animals looking like "pure" Nosy Be's have been missed or ignored by everyone else in such a small area. Also, if the exporters are willing to send emaciated, dehydrated, one-eyed Nosy Faly's covered in a layer of dirt....why would they not send a yellow one if they were a natural part of the population before? It's the name that commands a higher price, not the quality.

So now, could that be the reason so few actual Faly females have come through in shipments to date? Collector's realization that the females keep the small population alive so they avoid them? I hadn't thought of that until realizing just how little vegetation is on that island.
 

clarkrw3

New Member
Man, that's all real interesting especially that picture. Thinking overnight about that, the report of moving males from other locales to Nosy Faly, and the satellite image has given me a very dim view for the future of the look we want Faly's to have. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong but if you look at the satellite image you'll see that the vegetation on that island is probably around 4 square miles total. Most of the east-northeast side of the main part of the island is sand with no plants. The southern projection of the island is approx. 1500 feet wide for quite some distance. There are no natural barriers. It would be easy for a couple people to survey most of it on foot in a day. (I look at maps and conduct pedestrian surveys for a living) So, I just find it hard to imagine at this point that variation as extreme as yellow backgrounds and red streaks rather than the accepted red dots, or that animals looking like "pure" Nosy Be's have been missed or ignored by everyone else in such a small area. Also, if the exporters are willing to send emaciated, dehydrated, one-eyed Nosy Faly's covered in a layer of dirt....why would they not send a yellow one if they were a natural part of the population before? It's the name that commands a higher price, not the quality.

So now, could that be the reason so few actual Faly females have come through in shipments to date? Collector's realization that the females keep the small population alive so they avoid them? I hadn't thought of that until realizing just how little vegetation is on that island.
I have had the same thought Kent. In looking over satellite pictures of the island I believe the population had to be very small. Which goes with conversations I have had with Olaf, where he has been very concerned that even a few animals could drastically effect the genetics on the island. The island is so small and the population so small vast diversity just isn't possible.
 

mcleodschams

Established Member
The yeloow "faly" looks to me what a mitsio faly cross could look like lol. I agree with the fact that such a small island can not have such vast diversity. If it had we would see more then just the typical red white and blue in shipments i just dont see how they can be that diverse without having been muddied. As far as im concerned in captivity we have should stck to the red white and blue desired faly other then that its just drama from those who were sold muddied faly lines i know its hard to admit you have been had whether on purpose or not. But the desired faly look should sell for higher pricing and less desired for less money just like any other locale. Cb specamins should be held back for 4-6 months before they are sold as pure. I know many are trying to make a buck its just too bad when people see a price tag instead of the chance to better a locale.
 

Olimpia

Biologist & Ecologist
Olimpia: Your saying if you put 100 animals on a secluded island. Genetics will have little variation for years and years and years? No morphs in coloration or pattern can or will happen?
Yes, it's called the founder effect. If you put a 100 animals on a small island, especially if the individuals are all very similar (let's say that they were mostly one locale or another that drifted over on a log, for the sake of argument) certain traits, like a certain color, will move more quickly towards fixation than in a scenario where you have a lot of movement between individuals of different areas, like on the mainland. It's not uncommon to find populations on small islands where all individuals are distant cousins of each other, which makes them more susceptible to extinction. So if breeders are observing that Falys tend to be slower, weaker growers and breeders, this makes sense.

However, like others have mentioned, the island doesn't seem to be very far off the coast. It's possible that the island gets a certain amount of migration (whether intentional or accidental) from somewhere else and that's what accounts of the very different random individuals.

But that's tough to say, I don't know how much any of us knows is natural migration (say some Ambanjas floated on a log to the island) vs. the natives intentionally adding attractive chameleons to the island for the sake of tourists. I certainly don't know, so it's hard to say.
 

Chameleon Nation

New Member
I have been saying it for awhile, and got a few earfulls in the process for doing so. There is color variation. Both exporters I deal with have been saying it since 2007. Also been discussing it with you through PM over the past couple years. It all started for me way back with Chameleon Alleys Bud. Thanks for posting that man. Merry Christmas.





A
Ok I am posting guys and girls but I don't want no drama or hateful pms like I got last time I posted . There is enough drama in real life . But I will shear with you all what little Intel I have from 2 sources that live there and one that went to the island last year. The exporter I know and have been talking to for years long befor my chams when I was just wanting to talk with anyone and everyone about reptiles and longer then most of you have keap chams. He has told me several times that there is color variation of falys just most don't see or want them in there imports. Everyone wants the red white and blue. But he has seen rain less falys, yellow falys,red falys and all white falys with just red rain. I also have a buddy that went to the island of nosy faly just a few years ago and was telling me about all the colors of falys he saw on the island that were the same as my export buddy well me being thick headed . I called bs for the longest time until last year he went back and sent me this pic of a wc faly on the island he went and got it right out side of his room and brought it in and took the pic. It blew my mind. He also saw more around the island with this same color pattern. I asked my export friend and he said yes and no yes that can be on the island but he dose not except them from the locale people for his imports as well as most other exporters. This is just info I have on variation on the island with on the ground sources one a exporter the other just a reptile nut. Take it as you want I don't want no drama or bs or hateful pms just for posting on a faly thread like last time.... Thanks for reading .
 

pssh

Avid Member
Yes, it's called the founder effect. If you put a 100 animals on a small island, especially if the individuals are all very similar (let's say that they were mostly one locale or another that drifted over on a log, for the sake of argument) certain traits, like a certain color, will move more quickly towards fixation than in a scenario where you have a lot of movement between individuals of different areas, like on the mainland. It's not uncommon to find populations on small islands where all individuals are distant cousins of each other, which makes them more susceptible to extinction. So if breeders are observing that Falys tend to be slower, weaker growers and breeders, this makes sense.

This is true, but wouldn't it still be possible for random pure individuals to exhibit markings/colors that are out of the ordinary? Especially since they are more likely to be related? I know mammals and reptiles are vastly different, but it brings to my mind cheetahs. Cheetahs are very genetically similar to each other (suggesting that they are inbred) yet there are coat patters that show up (spots kind of blend together to get a marbled/tabby look, very little or no spots, silver spots, etc.) Though I suppose those could be recessive traits from before any genetic "bottleneck" occurred rather than after. I don't know enough about all this stuff, so I could be way off. What do you think?
 

Texas Ranger

Avid Member
This is true, but wouldn't it still be possible for random pure individuals to exhibit markings/colors that are out of the ordinary? Especially since they are more likely to be related? I know mammals and reptiles are vastly different, but it brings to my mind cheetahs. Cheetahs are very genetically similar to each other (suggesting that they are inbred) yet there are coat patters that show up (spots kind of blend together to get a marbled/tabby look, very little or no spots, silver spots, etc.) Though I suppose those could be recessive traits from before any genetic "bottleneck" occurred rather than after. I don't know enough about all this stuff, so I could be way off. What do you think?
That is right.... Every creature on earth has hidden genes that will not show unless expressed under the right conditions. I am sure everyone has seen albino in almost everything reptiles and mammals . That is a simple recessive trait that shows up in the wild and captive . Also a whole list of other mutations recessive,simple recessive,domanint and co dominant all in mammals and reptiles and other creatures on earth. These traits are all seen more often were the population ar isolated or separated from others (islands or were natural or man made borders have been made. So saying a island like nosy faly has to have just one commen look and color Patten is just ridiculous seeing how they pritty much have every natural and man made things comming in to play to allow for mutations of any kind.
 

Chameleon Nation

New Member
Exactly....


That is right.... Every creature on earth has hidden genes that will not show unless expressed under the right conditions. I am sure everyone has seen albino in almost everything reptiles and mammals . That is a simple recessive trait that shows up in the wild and captive . Also a whole list of other mutations recessive,simple recessive,domanint and co dominant all in mammals and reptiles and other creatures on earth. These traits are all seen more often were the population ar isolated or separated from others (islands or were natural or man made borders have been made. So saying a island like nosy faly has to have just one commen look and color Patten is just ridiculous seeing how they pritty much have every natural and man made things comming in to play to allow for mutations of any kind.
 

pssh

Avid Member
Supposing some of the odd colored individuals aren't from a crossing between introduced locales, I wonder if the colors would be from mutation or from some kind of recessive trait? It's too darn bad females dont show the same colors as males or even muted male colors. i guess that's part of the fun if baby oanthers though. You never really know for sure what the boys might look like.

Now, I have another question. Have any breeders who have bred "proven" falys for multiple generations (like no wild blood for 2-3 generations) ever gotten a baby that was abnormally colored? It seems many of the "rain-less" or otherwise "oddly colored" animals are CH or have a wild caught mother thrown in the mix somewhere.

Edit: texas ranger, I have never seen an albino chameleon that was proven to be albino. I know about the jacksons that was supposedly albino, but the owner had a reputation of being a scam artist. And i havent heard of anyone confirming that it was indeed albino and not just a stressed or over heated red-phase female.
 
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