Arcadia Supplements // Hopping on the Hype Train?

[Dbash44]

@cyberlocc

Edited the previous for grammar lol

The reason I went where I did with the last post was due to my OP. I essentially trying to get at how Arcadia Supplements contrast with the ones I was previously using.

Still, though, can we say that Arcadia supplements are good based off the success people have had with it despite us not knowing EXACTLY what's in it?

I may try to reach out to them to get this information and see what happens.

 

[cyberlocc]

(Damn, I typed this up before I read your whole reply. Looks like you and I have similar thinking.)

Oh boy now I'm into illegal smuggling of drugs for my chams. I wonder if the regulations for selling it is why they don't sell it in the US, because they are being shady. That could be circumstantial, though.

Anyhow, I have a list of the ingredients for the Earth Pro A. I don't have the calcium pro magnesium handy so I cannot say whether or not it has added ingredients or guaranteed analysis as the Earth Pro does. Let's just assume its calcium and magnesium for now. I was typing this up at the office when I first got it. I was trying to research the ingredients to better understand them.

Earth Pro A :
Calcium Carbonate
Mineral Clay
Vegetable Protein
Carrot Powder
Algal Carotenoid
Vitamin B Premix
Bee Pollen
Added: vitamin b1 10mg/kg, vitamin b2 16mg/kg, vitamin b6 20mg/kg, vitamin b12 50mcg/kg, vitamin k 6mg/kg, nicotinic 80mg/kg, pantothenic 40mg/kg, folic acid 5mg/kg, biotin 1000mcg/kg

Calcium Carbonate: we know what this is

Mineral Clay: Apparently there's iron, magnesium, alkali metals (lithium, sodium, potassium, rubidium, caesium, francium), Alkaline earths (beryllium, magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium, radium) and other cations in this ingredient. Not sure if it's all of that or not.

"Clay minerals are hydrous aluminium phyllosilicates, sometimes with variable amounts of iron, magnesium, alkali metals, alkaline earths, and other cations found on or near some planetary surfaces."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_mineral

Vegetable Protein: I was curious as to what type of vegetable protein they use. I feel like that could determine what vitamins are in this.

Carrot Powder: Typically vitamin A, Biotin, Vitamin K1, Potassium, Vitamin B6 are what carrots provide. Not sure if the powder has the same or if it's dummed down due to the process of drying it and turning it into a powder
Source: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods/carrots#vitamins-and-minerals

Algal Carotenoid: Reading about this I was wondering what type of algae they use. Apparently different types of algae have different carotenoids. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131562/

Vitamin B Premix: What sources are they using for the vitamin b premix? Essentially what b vitamins are in this mix?

Bee Pollen: "Pollen is quite a significant source of vitamin both fat-soluble 0,1%, such as provitamin A and vitamins E and D, and water-soluble 0,6%, such as B1, B2, B6, and C, and acids: pantothenic, nicotinic and folic, biotin, rutin, and inositol. Their total amount is equal to 0,7% in the whole product. "
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4377380/


I don't know if I'm looking to deep into it. I haven't quite taken the time to research each ingredient of the supplements I've used prevsiously or how their ingredients contrast with Arcadia's.

I previously used Repcal Herptivite Multi Vitamin which has the following ingredients:
Glutamic Acid, Aspartic Acide, Leucine, Valine, Serine, Lysine, Alanine, Phenylalanine, Arginine, Isoleucine, Threonine, Tyrosine, Methionine, Proline, Glycine, Cysteine, Histidine, Suncured Alfalfa, Dried Kelp, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxide Hydrochloride, Manganous Oxide, Sulfure, ZInc Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Oxide, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Magnesium Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Biotin, Folic Acid.
Source: https://www.joshsfrogs.com/herptivite-multivitamin.html

Also, Repcal Calcium plus d3:
Calcium, minimum 35%; Calcium, maximum 40%; Vitamin D3, minimum 400,000 IU/Kg
Source: https://www.joshsfrogs.com/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-with-vitamin-d3.html

Lugarti Calcium with no d3:
Pure calcium carbonate
Guaranteed analysis: calcium (min) 38% (max) 43%, Vitamin D (min) 0.0 IU/lb
Source: The bottle label I have

I seen after typing that. LYR, said they have gotten permission to import it. Not sure if that means sell it, if that is a premarket test or what.

Kind of hard to know what's going on.

I think they are using Spliruina as it has the highest carotene count of any afaik.

Not a very good ingredient list. Very vague, and that's concerning to me.

@cyberlocc

Edited the previous for grammar lol

The reason I went where I did with the last post was due to my OP. I essentially trying to get at how Arcadia Supplements contrast with the ones I was previously using.

Still, though, can we say that Arcadia supplements are good based off the success people have had with it despite us not knowing EXACTLY what's in it?

I may try to reach out to them to get this information and see what happens.

Can we though? Their supplements have only been out for what 6 months? How long in Europe?

Edit: originally made in Europe in 2015, late in the year first avaible. Back then they said it was bee pollen and Spliruina pretty much. There was no talk of anything else.

They rebranded and possibly altered formula in 2019.


For an experienced keeper, that is gutloading well, varying insects ect, like Becca above. She likely doesn't need any dusting. Proper insect care, we shown earlier in the thread, will provide the right supplementation.

However alot of keepers, that cut some corners, and such. Supplements only thing holding their Cham together. They might not fair so well.

 

[Dbash44]

I seen after typing that. LYR, said they have gotten permission to import it. Not sure if that means sell it, if that is a premarket test or what.

Kind of hard to know what's going on.

I think they are using Spliruina as it has the highest carotene count of any afaik.

Not a very good ingredient list. Very vague, and that's concerning to me.

I saw that LYR site said that when I was ordering. I didn't think much of it at the time. It makes sense now. I would imagine they would have to received a license or documentation to authorize selling it in the states due to the lack of information on the product. I wonder what type of information they had to provide to get such licensing.

What makes you think spliruina?

I think that they're rapport with the reptile community in regards to their UVB lights is what makes people trust them. I remember many many moons ago reading about those bulbs and how people were skeptical. Nowadays that and the Zoomed lights are all we (or maybe just me) read about. I suspect that maybe Arcadia used this reputation to push out other products that people don't question. Like you said in a post somewhere here on CF (I've read a lot of your posts so idk where it's located), that you contest parroted information. Maybe Arcadia knows about said parrots and haven't been caught up yet. I'm also overly paranoid about certain things so maybe it's nothing, but it sure doesn't seem that way. I'm still unsure what to believe at this point.

Can we though? There things have only been out for what 6 months? How long in Europe?

Not sure how long they've been out in Europe. I did email them a moment ago so we'll see what their response is, if they do respond at all lol

 

[Dbash44]

@cyberlocc
Based off their sales of their UVB bulbs in the US, you'd think that they'd want to sell their supplements here. It's all about money in some businesses isn't it? This is all speculation though, we cannot say for sure without proof.

 

[cyberlocc]

I saw that LYR site said that when I was ordering. I didn't think much of it at the time. It makes sense now. I would imagine they would have to received a license or documentation to authorize selling it in the states due to the lack of information on the product. I wonder what type of information they had to provide to get such licensing.

What makes you think spliruina?

I think that they're rapport with the reptile community in regards to their UVB lights is what makes people trust them. I remember many many moons ago reading about those bulbs and how people were skeptical. Nowadays that and the Zoomed lights are all we (or maybe just me) read about. I suspect that maybe Arcadia used this reputation to push out other products that people don't question. Like you said in a post somewhere here on CF (I've read a lot of your posts so idk where it's located), that you contest parroted information. Maybe Arcadia knows about said parrots and haven't been caught up yet. I'm also overly paranoid about certain things so maybe it's nothing, but it sure doesn't seem that way. I'm still unsure what to believe at this point.




Not sure how long they've been out in Europe. I did email them a moment ago so we'll see what their response is, if they do respond at all lol

Yes all very good questions.

Since it's exclusive to LYR, seems to me, it's likely a premarket testing phase or some such, till they can get their ducks in a row, and proper packaging and testing by the FDA.

They are likely letting them test run to see if they should even bother.

I think it's Spliruina as it has the highest carotene content of any algaes. The carotene content in it, was brought up way back in studies from the 90s, with Ferguson studies in such in old Reptile Magazine articles I have read.

The same studies, however are the ones that were inferring chameleons seem to require preformed Vit A. Back then the reccomended was dosing with diluted oils, via syringe. I think this was before we had Vit A supplements like we do now.


And YES! I 100% agree, they make good UVB bulbs, 100%. Or the company that produces it for them, with their composition or theirs whatever they are good.

But that's where the other part (wouldn't fit) of my new signature comes in. That's exactly what Ferrit was talking about. Trusting people blindly because they are "Celebrities" or have shown to be right before. I don't think she was meaning exclusively in the reptile industry, we are seeing it worldwide, in every science field.

Facts and burden of proof seemed to have disappeared in leu of acceptance of fact, due to popularity, and likeability. It's a sad state of the world, research gate has been being refused as reference recently for that exact reason, it's becoming more of a social site, than that of science.

Too many are being allowed to coast on things they have done right, and well, and taken as fact without proper burden.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

@cyberlocc

Edited the previous for grammar lol

The reason I went where I did with the last post was due to my OP. I essentially trying to get at how Arcadia Supplements contrast with the ones I was previously using.

Still, though, can we say that Arcadia supplements are good based off the success people have had with it despite us not knowing EXACTLY what's in it?

I may try to reach out to them to get this information and see what happens.

I have been using the Arcadia EarthPro-A supplements for my third year now. I switched over because I wanted to have a 100% UVB husbandry and no dietary pre-formed vitamin A. I am trying to work with as natural of a situation as possible. It has worked well for me. “Well” is completely anecdotal as there are so many aspects that go into the heath of the chameleon. Using a strong UVB system and Arcadia EarthPro-A at every feeding I have had no MBD or a problem with vitamin A deficiency.



I chose EarthPro-A because of its focus on a wide range of carotenoids and that is the best chance we have of hitting the specific types or combinations that chameleons need to convert to retinol. It is all a guess at this point. So, yes, the Arcadia supplements work great. I have not used the Ca/Mg enough to say I have tested that. And I do not add in the vitamin A dose. Pete Hawkins was using EarthPro-A when he tested a no D3 regimen with UVI 3 on a female veiled chameleon and got fully calcified eggs. Jonathan Hill of iPardalis is on his third generation of panther chameleons under UVI 3 with Earthpro-A. So there is a history of success behind it.



Of course, there is a history of success with other supplements as well so it is hard to put a finger on what is “best” – whatever that means. If you would like to switch to EarthPro-A (or any 0% D3 system) then I strongly suggest you get a UVB meter to make sure you stay dialed in.

 

[cyberlocc]

I have been using the Arcadia EarthPro-A supplements for my third year now. I switched over because I wanted to have a 100% UVB husbandry and no dietary pre-formed vitamin A. I am trying to work with as natural of a situation as possible. It has worked well for me. “Well” is completely anecdotal as there are so many aspects that go into the heath of the chameleon. Using a strong UVB system and Arcadia EarthPro-A at every feeding I have had no MBD or a problem with vitamin A deficiency.



I chose EarthPro-A because of its focus on a wide range of carotenoids and that is the best chance we have of hitting the specific types or combinations that chameleons need to convert to retinol. It is all a guess at this point. So, yes, the Arcadia supplements work great. I have not used the Ca/Mg enough to say I have tested that. And I do not add in the vitamin A dose. Pete Hawkins was using EarthPro-A when he tested a no D3 regimen with UVI 3 on a female veiled chameleon and got fully calcified eggs. Jonathan Hill of iPardalis is on his third generation of panther chameleons under UVI 3 with Earthpro-A. So there is a history of success behind it.



Of course, there is a history of success with other supplements as well so it is hard to put a finger on what is “best” – whatever that means. If you would like to switch to EarthPro-A (or any 0% D3 system) then I strongly suggest you get a UVB meter to make sure you stay dialed in.

So you were using it pre rebrand? Any changes you noticed post rebrand? Was there any chemical alterations during the rebrand that you are aware of?

The Vitamin A thing is very intriguing. I'm not sure what to make of any of it.

We have study's from 91-92, saying carotenes were fine. Then we have studies from Ferguson and Coke, in 98 forward saying that is not true, and in time they seen serious deficiencies. Not sure if they were using the wrong carotenes?

I haven't seen any going back to the first study, or saying carotenes were fine. They must be out there, if all these folks are seeing positive results or attempting it. I just need to look deeper. Or do you know of any?

 

[DeremensisBlue]

So you were using it pre rebrand? Any changes you noticed post rebrand? Was there any chemical alterations during the rebrand that you are aware of?

The Vitamin A thing is very intriguing. I'm not sure what to make of any of it.

We have study's from 91-92, saying carotenes were fine. Then we have studies from Ferguson and Coke, in 98 forward saying that is not true, and in time they seen serious deficiencies. Not sure if they were using the wrong carotenes?

I haven't seen any going back to the first study, or saying carotenes were fine. They must be out there, if all these folks are seeing positive results or attempting it. I just need to look deeper. Or do you know of any?

The only "rebrand" I know about in EarthPro-A was just a packaging change. Nothing inside changed that I am aware of.

I am afraid there really isn't much definitive regarding vitamin A and its conversion. When Ferguson did his studies he used beta carotene as an isolate. Unfortunately, this was simplified by most people as "chameleons do not convert carotenoids". The true finding in the Ferguson studies would more accurately be "Panther chameleons were not found to convert beta carotene when offered as an isolated carotenoid". We don't know if they convert another carotenoid or require a combination of carotenoids in some sort of balance. Or maybe there is something we are missing all together.

And it is not straight forward to even pinpoint the problem of vitamin A deficiency. Yes, chameleons get it and, yes, giving them pre-formed vitamin A "cures" the issue. But how do we explain Mario Jungmann's use of only calcium and bee pollen as a supplement for the last ten years without a single case of vitamin A deficiency? With the massive amount of babies that he produces across many species you would think there would be an epidemic of hypovitaminosis A...but here isn't. How come I can go a couple of years without supplementing vitamin A and the only two chameleons that have shown what appeared to be vitamin A deficiency were two babies that came from a wild caught female? Yet, on social media we have a regular stream of cases of what appear to be vitamin A deficiency. This is a completely frustrating situation because there just isn't a pattern that we can put our finger on.

There is no science that pinpoints how insectivores would get pre-formed vitamin A. Sure, we can count on larger chameleons grabbing a gecko or rodent or hummingbird here and there. But that is not as satisfying of an answer the smaller we get. So, what does a carpet chameleon eat that has retinol - a baby gecko that can convert carotenoids? The further we extend the story the more it screams that there needs to be a better answer.

I think we are stuck trying to figure it out on our own until someone decides to fund chameleon nutrition. Dr. Ferguson was a lucky break for us. My going to EarthPro-A was to get long term experience under my belt of husbandry without preformed vitamin A to try and see if I can see a difference. I have a clutch of Veiled Chameleon eggs incubating right now who will provide a test group of one group with EarthPro-A, one group with Repashy Calcium plus, and one group with Reptivite without D3. So I have one no D3/no A, one D3/no A and one D3/A. All UVI 3. I do not know what to expect so I will just have to wait and see what results I get. And if I get anything conclusive I hope others in the community would try and replicate the results to make up for the lack of numbers I am able to work with. And maybe over the years we can figure something out by crowdsourcing science?

 

[cyberlocc]

The only "rebrand" I know about in EarthPro-A was just a packaging change. Nothing inside changed that I am aware of.

I am afraid there really isn't much definitive regarding vitamin A and its conversion. When Ferguson did his studies he used beta carotene as an isolate. Unfortunately, this was simplified by most people as "chameleons do not convert carotenoids". The true finding in the Ferguson studies would more accurately be "Panther chameleons were not found to convert beta carotene when offered as an isolated carotenoid". We don't know if they convert another carotenoid or require a combination of carotenoids in some sort of balance. Or maybe there is something we are missing all together.

And it is not straight forward to even pinpoint the problem of vitamin A deficiency. Yes, chameleons get it and, yes, giving them pre-formed vitamin A "cures" the issue. But how do we explain Mario Jungmann's use of only calcium and bee pollen as a supplement for the last ten years without a single case of vitamin A deficiency? With the massive amount of babies that he produces across many species you would think there would be an epidemic of hypovitaminosis A...but here isn't. How come I can go a couple of years without supplementing vitamin A and the only two chameleons that have shown what appeared to be vitamin A deficiency were two babies that came from a wild caught female? Yet, on social media we have a regular stream of cases of what appear to be vitamin A deficiency. This is a completely frustrating situation because there just isn't a pattern that we can put our finger on.

There is no science that pinpoints how insectivores would get pre-formed vitamin A. Sure, we can count on larger chameleons grabbing a gecko or rodent or hummingbird here and there. But that is not as satisfying of an answer the smaller we get. So, what does a carpet chameleon eat that has retinol - a baby gecko that can convert carotenoids? The further we extend the story the more it screams that there needs to be a better answer.

I think we are stuck trying to figure it out on our own until someone decides to fund chameleon nutrition. Dr. Ferguson was a lucky break for us. My going to EarthPro-A was to get long term experience under my belt of husbandry without preformed vitamin A to try and see if I can see a difference. I have a clutch of Veiled Chameleon eggs incubating right now who will provide a test group of one group with EarthPro-A, one group with Repashy Calcium plus, and one group with Reptivite without D3. So I have one no D3/no A, one D3/no A and one D3/A. All UVI 3. I do not know what to expect so I will just have to wait and see what results I get. And if I get anything conclusive I hope others in the community would try and replicate the results to make up for the lack of numbers I am able to work with. And maybe over the years we can figure something out by crowdsourcing science?

Great points.

To the Retinol, I have an idea. I brought it up, maybe here. However definitely in the gutloading thread.

We know that Chameleons love flys, they eat ton of flies in the wild diets we have seen. Flies eat carrion. There is Retinol sourced in large amounts, lots of the insects that are shown in chameleon wild diets eat carrion.

We refuse carrion to our insects in fear of gout, and likely for good reason. However maybe in moderation, the correct carrion, with the correct insect wouldn't be that bad.

Insects chameleons eat in the wild, do not eat seaweed or carrots afaik.

Pollen they do, and there could be something to that.


There is in that gutload thread some more that kind of comes back to this. Studies (I believe also Ferguson) have shown that insects can be altered via gutload. There is reason to believe that may receive preformed Vit A, and D3 via gutload. We can even manipulate CA : P ratios via gutloading.

So a large part of the question, and that's what I was touching on with the new keepers cutting corners. What is Mario feeding, and what are those insects fed, if he is using gutload with Retinol, intentionally or otherwise, that could very well be a source.

Lots of animals, usually means lots of feeders. Which could mean cutting corners on gutload, or rather feeder foods, pre being fed. Dog food is common, that's retinol right there.

Most of the large roach sites, will flat out tell you that raising roaches for instance, without animal proteins for any sustainable duration in large colonies, is a fleating task. I haven't had much issue with this myself, but I am not rearing millions of roaches, and I have never fed animal proteins to see the diffrence if it exists.

I have seen the studies, that do show hey do seem to breed faster when provided with carrion, or dog food. So there is seemingly some truth to it. To me it was never worth the risk. It does make sense. It it's natural for them.

 

[kinyonga]

Curious question...how many people who have chameleons develop a vitamin A deficiency use too much D3 supplement?

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Okay, some of this conversation has gone way off the road. There is no conspiracy or dark motives at work here.

John Courteney-Smith is the head of science and innovation at Arcadia and drives the products. Over the years I have conversed with him extensively on and off microphone. He is tirelessly dedicated to increasing the well being of reptiles in captivity. Everything that comes out of Arcadia is a result of his research. He is straight forward with how he comes to his conclusions and what the limitations are to his findings. Yes, Arcadia is a business and a business needs to make money to survive. But there is a difference to just slapping a label on a bottle that someone else has filled with who knows what and formulating a supplement after years of personal research.

@cyberlocc You all can debate the researchable you want, but to paint people that are actually trying to make the community better as "shady" is self-sabotaging to the community. There has been way too much judgement based on incorrect speculation.

Re: ProT5 - get the light before you publicly make all your judgements. Wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do? What do you think of people who publicly tear down others based on guesses? The 10" ProT5 has been available for a while. You can get a hold of it and actually be educated on what you are talking about. Better yet, just waiting a week or two and you could have the real deal in your hands and actually know what you are talking about. Why rush it and say things publicly that are incorrect? The end caps are different, the reflector is different. In speaking with John the internal electronics are different and this is made to Arcadia specifications and will not be white labeled for anyone else. Sure, you can decide you don't believe him, but then we are getting into the territory of personal vendetta and not really wanting the truth. All of this is information that would be relatively simple to obtain. With all the time you spend researching how to tear down what people are doing, couldn't some of that time be spent making sure your judgements are sound? John has books written and has been on my podcast extensively. His thinking is not hidden at all. You can agree or disagree with his conclusions, but there is no other company that has been so forthcoming and open with their thought process. If you want to root out shadiness you are more likely to find it in people/companies that don't have so much direct interaction with the public.

Re: EarthPro-A. Not sure what you want here. It was a supplement based on John's best research into nutrition just like Repashy was the result of Allen's best research into the subject just like ZooMed did their research to supplement zoo animals. The question comes down to what each creator was thinking and what their purpose was. I have spoke to both Allen and John about their supplements and both have an enormous amount of personal research into their formulations. Allen was focused on having an all-in-one and it has proven to be effective as an all-in-one. John wanted to find a supplement that would be the most effective at a 100% UVB system and provide the carotenoids for vitamin A conversion - and it has proved to produce healthy chameleons. John has been completely transparent at where the science of carotenoids is. And I know that both of them are working hard on pushing forward. And, really, those are our two people that are heavily researching and pushing our community forward. Do we have any indication that any other company that produces supplementation is doing any further research? Do we have any indication that all these new companies offering supplements have done anything besides slap a sticker on? There are so many examples of companies selling old formulations and white label products that there are no shortage of companies that actually are trying to take advantage of a non-sophisticated public. Wouldn't these conspiracy theory rooting efforts be more suitably directed towards the companies preying on the community instead of the ones trying to push it forward?

btw, the reason for Arcadia having a separate supplement for Ca/Mg was a manufacturing issue in being able to keep the Mg active so he had to split it up into two supplements. Once again, completely voluntarily and publicly shared by John.

Nothing will be perfect and every step forward will have compromises. How about we be much more careful before making accusations about people's character?

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Curious question...how many people who have chameleons develop a vitamin A deficiency use too much D3 supplement?

I think an antagonistic relationship between D3 and A would be a perfect answer to why we see vitamin A deficiency. My thoughts on that possibility have been on the back burner because I am having trouble finding a description of D3 degrading vitamin A. If you happen to have a paper that describes this then that would be very helpful! I can find many references to vitamin A degrading vitamin D. But not the other way around - other than a couple of references to them being “mutually antagonistic”. So I cannot tell if that was just someone fudging the terminology because they couldn’t remember which interfered with which or if there was some science behind it.

And if we could link the people seeing the symptoms of hypovitaminosis A to people that dust with Fluker’s Calcium with D3 or Rep-Cal with D3 every feeding then we have something. These are the two major supplements on the market that have huge amounts of D3 (100k IU/lb and 181k IU/lb respectively).

My use of the relative term “huge” comes from my calculation that a 20k IU/lb supplement when fed with every feeding gives a panther chameleon the D3 it needs through diet. This is drawn off an experiment of taking the report Dr. Ferguson made of his colleague Larry Talent who found panther chameleons needed 25-30 IU of D3 a week. Unfortunately, I have not found a published paper by Larry Talent, but Dr. Ferguson mentions it a number of times. This is also, in part, supported from the husbandry methods of Kammerflage Kreations that show us that using a 20k IU/lb supplement is, at least, not oversupplementing. Repashy Calcium Plus has 20k IU/lb of vitamin D3. A very rough exercise of how many crickets the amount of Calcium Plus powder that contained 25-30 IU of D3 would dust led to what was roughly a weekly feeding. Of course, this is a GROSS generalization that is dependent on size of feeder, how much sticks to the feeder, how much falls off before it is eaten and how much vanishes into air when the cricket is snagged by the chameleon tongue. So I don’t even pretend that this is scientific! But, it does gives us a rough idea of what D3 levels we can shoot for. And 20k IU/lb is in the ballpark. This would suggest that >100k IU/lb is out of the ball park. Of course, Calcium Plus has large amounts of vitamin A (200k IU/lb) so there may be some degradation of vitamin D3. I do not know at what point degradation happens. Sorting out vitamin interaction is a cause of massive brain pain to the sorter.

So, I would love any information that you have on this topic. It would be a beautiful answer to the question.

 

[cyberlocc]

I had stated I am curious to see a change in the US Version.

I don't need the light to compare with other folks, that I know in the UK who have both lights, provided their findings, and those are in line with mine (my sunblaster, and hydrofarm jumpstart)

I said little of John's character. I stated the marketing Dept they lead is shady.

Such as the case with the Deep Heat. And other with their products.

They provide half truths in their marketing. And nothing they say should be taken at face value.

I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree. Just because someone is liked in the community, or is "Trying to Help" does not mean everything they say is true, nor correct.

Arcadias products have some steep marketing claims, turns out quite a few of those claims, with other products, were false. So yes, to me that is shady. That is the very defition of shady.

As far as the end caps being different. Hard to tell from photos, never asked that, seen no reason.

The drivers are the same. The reflector, may have an alteration, but if it does it's pointless, it gets the same readings.

As far as me having a personal vendetta, ya maybe a little bit. As I have already said in the opening.

The Deep Heat "Deep Tissue Heating, IRA provided, Natural like the Sun" ECT ECT.

That was great, it sold me, I bought 4 of them. I was in love with the idea. Until the day, that they were exposed as fallacys, or rather half truths.

Same thing with the JD spots. The new Jungle Bars, are made by the same company that makes the "ProT5" and Sunblaster, ect.

Shenzhen sunlight lighting company. Makes all of that. We could instead of guessing end cap changes and reflector changes (that don't show, on meters or physically) just ask them. They have been very transparent in the past, when I have asked them questions about such.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Great points.

To the Retinol, I have an idea. I brought it up, maybe here. However definitely in the gutloading thread.

We know that Chameleons love flys, they eat ton of flies in the wild diets we have seen. Flies eat carrion. There is Retinol sourced in large amounts, lots of the insects that are shown in chameleon wild diets eat carrion.
....
So a large part of the question, and that's what I was touching on with the new keepers cutting corners. What is Mario feeding, and what are those insects fed, if he is using gutload with Retinol, intentionally or otherwise, that could very well be a source.

Carrion in the gut is certainly a good hypothesis. Presumably, flies eating the liver would carry that to the chameleon.

Mario doesn't have anything that he knows of that would gut load insects with pre-formed vitamin A. And, in my gut loading, I can't pinpoint anything either. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some hidden vitamin A somewhere. I just haven't uncovered it. Tons of carotenoids, but no discovery of pre-formed vitamin A.

 

[cyberlocc]

Edit time up on last post. But wanted to add to this though.

"All of this is information that would be relatively simple to obtain. With all the time you spend researching how to tear down what people are doing, couldn't some of that time be spent making sure your judgements are sound?"

What research am I doing to tear down what people are doing? I do research on things to help myself and the community. I do research on things that interest me, ideas I can implore, things I want to try. If that conflicts with others ideas, well sorry? Most of my research has nothing to do with any others ideas. It so happens it collides, and when it does I do mention the collision, nothing more.

I researched the Deep Heat, after buying 4 of them (that was a mistake) by mistake actually, found the info. I researched the Jungle Dawn as a similar Product was brought to my attention. I researched (or rather collabed with a UK friend) over the Pro T5, due to Sunblaster being bashed and Arcadias being put on a pedestal. The new "Jungle Bars" I came across by mistake in the process.

I blindly trusted Arcadia two times, and in both that was a mistake. I am not going to make that mistake again. That was my fault, not Arcadias, I should have known better. I am usually very very cautious on claims, and due thorough research before buying anything, I let my guard down, got played, its my fault.

Ya there are bigger companies, that may or may not also false advertise their products. They also do not have a cult following. Blindly following fast talkers, is becoming a very large problem around here. So what, Arcadia seems to have good intentions so lets throw all science and logic out the window and take everything they say as Gospel?

Ferrit said it best, thats why I fit what I could into my signature, but here is the whole thing.

"Do not be offended when people ask for credentials or proof of claims. I for one think it is WONDERFUL! I've been training this community to do exactly that for years and much of the population of the world would benefit from this thought process when new information is presented. With the exponentially expanding scientific illiteracy of the world it is important to seek validated sources of information before buying them at face value. A well respected name should not automatically buy trust, but unfortunately this is case with many celebrities promoting pseudoscience or outright anti-science agendas. So even though I'm sure you don't appreciate being questioned on your authority in the field I encourage you to see the positives in that practice."
- Ferritinmyshoes


As to the other supplements, they have time on their side. They have been around for decades, and used by 1000s. I still would not suggest one or the other, or say one is better than the other. As there is no factual basis to that, that can be proven. Nor have I seen that stated, people suggest what they like, many provide options, I can tell you what I use, and when I do I always say "this may cause issues, do not take this as an end all, there are other great options as well"

That is a Stark Contrast, from the cult mentality we are seeing in this thread. There is no one right way to do things, and these are completely unrealistic unprovable claims "Its better quality" "Its more natural"

How can better quality be proven? Especially with no ingredient listing of any level of completeness? How is feeding seaweed more natural? To an animal that is never around Seaweed? These are baseless conjecture, pushed as Fact, in a cult like format. Like Snake Oil.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Edit time up. But wanted to add to this though.

"All of this is information that would be relatively simple to obtain. With all the time you spend researching how to tear down what people are doing, couldn't some of that time be spent making sure your judgements are sound?"

What research am I doing to tear down what people are doing? I do research on things to help myself and the community. I do research on things that interest me, ideas I can implore, things I want to try. If that conflicts with others ideas, well sorry? Most of my research has nothing to do with any others ideas. It so happens it collides, and when it does I do mention the collision, nothing more.

I researched the Deep Heat, after buying 4 of them (that was a mistake) by mistake actually, found the info. I researched the Jungle Dawn as a similar Product was brought to my attention. I researched (or rather collabed with a UK friend) over the Pro T5, due to Sunblaster being bashed and Arcadias being put on a pedestal. The new "Jungle Bars" I came across by mistake in the process.

I blindly trusted Arcadia two times, and in both that was a mistake. I am not going to make that mistake again. That was my fault, not Arcadias, I should have known better. I am usually very very cautious on claims, and due thorough research before buying anything, I let my guard down, got played, its my fault.

I am talking about ProT5. I don’t know anything about your deep heat experience (and don’t want to know). And, no, don’t blindly trust anyone. But you are saying things that just aren’t true as if you know. I have no idea if these are a great product until I try them out. But they aren’t white label. They use a common extrusion, but that is it. I am referring to your weaving stories about what they are or aren’t doing based on your imagination and then attaching motives to that story. Just wait until you actually see the product. It is fine to go off of what other people see if you verify. But it sounds like you have a lot of bad information. I have some fixtures coming to me and I’d be happy to run any test you would like to determine its quality. But comparing them side by side with sun blaster I can tell you they are not the same - at least visually the end caps and reflector.

The only dog in the fight I personally have is that I want a single bulb T5 reflector that is quality enough that it is worth standardizing my build guides and UVB charts with. I am encouraged to have one that comes from a company that takes pride in their bulbs and speaks openly about protective circuitry. The other T5 fixtures meant for the reptile market are by companies whose entire existence is to make cheap things. Absent specs which list what is inside I can only go off of company reputation.

So I know you spend an enormous amount of time sorting through all this. What have you found as far as a T5 single bulb reflector that you favor and what do you know about it’s internal quality?

 

[cyberlocc]

I am talking about ProT5. I don’t know anything about your deep heat experience (and don’t want to know). And, no, don’t blindly trust anyone. But you are saying things that just aren’t true as if you know. I have no idea if these are a great product until I try them out. But they aren’t white label. They use a common extrusion, but that is it. I am referring to your weaving stories about what they are or aren’t doing based on your imagination and then attaching motives to that story. Just wait until you actually see the product. It is fine to go off of what other people see if you verify. But it sounds like you have a lot of bad information. I have some fixtures coming to me and I’d be happy to run any test you would like to determine its quality. But comparing them side by side with sun blaster I can tell you they are not the same - at least visually the end caps and reflector.

The only dog in the fight I personally have is that I want a single bulb T5 reflector that is quality enough that it is worth standardizing my build guides and UVB charts with. I am encouraged to have one that comes from a company that takes pride in their bulbs and speaks openly about protective circuitry. The other T5 fixtures meant for the reptile market are by companies whose entire existence is to make cheap things. Absent specs which list what is inside I can only go off of company reputation.

So I know you spend an enormous amount of time sorting through all this. What have you found as far as a T5 single bulb reflector that you favor and what do you know about it’s internal quality?

The sunblaster reflector is different, from the heard. That is why there is a visual difference.

Sunblaster, wants to add their product to the Seed Trays, so they need light to spread further right and left. Here is the seed trays here.

For this reason, they have had their reflectors modified. to spread light more, to the left and right. This is why their reflectors are not liked in the community, As they cannot be set down on the screen (Which I wouldn't do anyway).

When I say sunblaster, I really shouldn't. They are the largest company that sells said fixture, so their name is used in reference to it alot in the growing realm. However other folks use the other version of the reflector, that is 180 degrees. Like the Arcadia.

Those being the Hydrofarm Jumpstart. and The Vivarium electronics model, and Biodudes version. All of these fixtures, are Whitebox from Shenzen Sunlight Lighting Company, who also sells new Jungle Dawn Bars, on their Alibaba page.

Chicken or the egg on all of them, I cant be certain. Some predate me, looking into it. Its possible on some, Arcadia did come up with the Idea and SSLC made it for them and then whiteboxed it, or vice versa.

I will take apart my sunblaster, and give pictures for reference so you can do so with your Arcadia when you get it. The EU ballasts for both, are different as they are 120v, so what we will see on US side, I am not sure. (I have some stuff to do atm, was rushing to post this, I will be back on later and can take photos)

Here is SSLC for record, you can find all the different versions of their whiteboxes here. https://topsunlight.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.details.cordpanyb.4.68f731bfqrN74e


I will admit to be clear, at first when last we spoke about the ProT5, I had said I thought it overpriced. I was not taking into account the fact it possesses a UVB bulb by Arcadia. So in that factor present, it is priced competitively with the other versions that it is the same too. Maybe even cheaper in some cases.

So its a valid option, its not however from the data and comparisons I have seen, superior to the alternatives. If it was sold out, a Jumpstart or VE version would be comparable from what I have seen, and priced very similarly, after bulb and fixture were purchased.

All of those, made by Shenzhen, were already very good products. They are all very reliable fixtures, with very good reflectors. They are also very affordable for the quality they possess. Any changes that Arcadia has claimed to make, (which again were not different from EU samples, of Original ProT5s, that may have changed, with the US version). Couldn't add that much to an already great product.

 

[JacksJill]

As far as A & D3 go this study in rats indicates that both vitamins use the same receptors. I pulled a quote.
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/129/12/2246/4722077
"Hence, at least one basic link between the vitamin A and vitamin D responsive systems is the common use of RXR for heterodimer formation in transcriptive activity. Early work provided evidence that vitamin A may antagonize the actions of vitamin D (Grant and O'Hara 1957, Weits 1952 and 1959). We now report that vitamin A clearly antagonizes the actions of vitamin D."
My personal hypothesis is that chameleons get traces of dietary vitamin A from the rare or occasional feeder that has eaten decomposing flesh, or from eating the rare bird or rodent and since vitamin A is stored for up to 6 months only the rare trace is necessary. The study concludes that there is an antagonistic relationship but does not conclude where it happens at a molecular level. I'm thinking if it is at the same receptor then too much D3 is as likely to prevent this trace of A getting where it needs to go for eye health and reproductive function as A blocking D3. They may even make tiny amounts of their own A from these various carotenoids but again too much D3 interferes. These are just thoughts from my readings so don't take this as canon.

Sorry for the tangent. Back on topic, a reason not to mix supplements is that they may react chemically to each other in the can/container rendering them useless to the chameleon or at the very least less effective.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

As far as A & D3 go this study in rats indicates that both vitamins use the same receptors. I pulled a quote.
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/129/12/2246/4722077
"Hence, at least one basic link between the vitamin A and vitamin D responsive systems is the common use of RXR for heterodimer formation in transcriptive activity. Early work provided evidence that vitamin A may antagonize the actions of vitamin D (Grant and O'Hara 1957, Weits 1952 and 1959). We now report that vitamin A clearly antagonizes the actions of vitamin D."
My personal hypothesis is that chameleons get traces of dietary vitamin A from the rare or occasional feeder that has eaten decomposing flesh, or from eating the rare bird or rodent and since vitamin A is stored for up to 6 months only the rare trace is necessary. The study concludes that there is an antagonistic relationship but does not conclude where it happens at a molecular level. I'm thinking if it is at the same receptor then too much D3 is as likely to prevent this trace of A getting where it needs to go for eye health and reproductive function as A blocking D3. They may even make tiny amounts of their own A from these various carotenoids but again too much D3 interferes. These are just thoughts from my readings so don't take this as canon.

Sorry for the tangent. Back on topic, a reason not to mix supplements is that they may react chemically to each other in the can/container rendering them useless to the chameleon or at the very least less effective.

You have made my day!! Thank you! Time for some deep reading...better get a refill on this cold brew....

 

[JacksJill]

There are some similar studies in poultry as well. Turkeys for your reading pleasure. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4009300
These links were provided to me by @kinyonga