Arcadia Supplements // Hopping on the Hype Train?

cyberlocc said:
I will take apart my sunblaster, and give pictures for reference so you can do so with your Arcadia when you get it. The EU ballasts for both, are different as they are 120v, so what we will see on US side, I am not sure. (I have some stuff to do atm, was rushing to post this, I will be back on later and can take photos)
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This really isn't necessary for my sake. I actually don't care how this is put together or if parts are borrowed or even if everyone in the world uses the same electronics. As far as my purposes, I am really only interested in a fixture I can rely on for quality and availability. It has to be one that I can characterize with all the bulbs commonly on the market with the reasonable expectation that someone without a UVB meter will be able to replicate the general levels. My excitement with the Arcadia fixture is that I have a direct line to the person responsible for the design and he will share everything about it. I like having someone personally responsible being a member of the community. There is a direct feedback loop and responsibility. It takes me days to test all the bulbs and sizes. I feel like I have lost days of my life working with the Odyssea fixtures and want something better to take its place.

While we are talking here, do you have experience with the Vivosun fixtures? I am new to them. I like them, but I have just started putting hours behind using them.
 
Beman said:
This is what I was told to do for Vitamin A from a few leaders in the field. Either a powdered supplement with higher levels of Preformed A or a pinky mouse on feed 8 or 16 depending on species. Now since there is no way I will ever manage to do a pinky mouse I go the powdered supplement route.

As far as this being my preference. I do believe there are differences in quality with the different brands. The first month I had Beman and I was doing repcal products he was getting white build up around his nostrils. I was already guttloading correctly and offering the correct feeders and I was not using tap water so this led me to it being the supplements. So I switched to Arcadia supplements. Within a few days his nose no longer had the white build up and since then never has had it. I switched to Repashy calcium plus loD thinking it was going to be fantastic and easy. Then started seeing different health threads with chams having issues where everything seemed to be correct and they were using LoD. This concerned me but I brushed it off. Then Beman stopped having clean sheds. I am a crazy person when it comes to his environment from his humidity levels, to proper gutloading with diversity. And well you know there is nothing I have not bought to make sure his enclosure and his needs were met. So the only thing I could narrow down was the repashy was missing something. So I switched back to Arcadia. I love their bulbs as well. I also use their insect fuel in my own mixture for gutload.

I happen to be one who prefers to use preformed A from powder rather then a drop from a gel cap. I tried the gel cap method and freaked out the 2 times I used it afraid I would overdose him.

Like you said it is one of those not enough is known areas. I can say Beman hits targets without issue and has never had eye issues. Right now I feel what I am doing is working but what works for one cham may not work for another. Like with repashy LoD. Some chams do great on it and some females have major issues.

Anywho... I just dropped in because I was checking messages and saw I got tagged here. I am going to go crawl back under my rock now. Take care.
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Don’t be a stranger @Beman!
 
Kaizen said:
SUPER INSIGHTFUL QUESTION!!!!
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It is a good question but anyone overdosing D3 is unlikely to realize they are doing so. I see folks here and on FB all the time giving too much and believing they are on a good schedule. Some don't even know it's not given daily in strong amounts. Add in the variable of lightly vs heavily dusting, good vs poor lighting. It would be hard to extract the info for anything but an apples to oranges comparison.
 
DeremensisBlue said:
This really isn't necessary for my sake. I actually don't care how this is put together or if parts are borrowed or even if everyone in the world uses the same electronics. As far as my purposes, I am really only interested in a fixture I can rely on for quality and availability. It has to be one that I can characterize with all the bulbs commonly on the market with the reasonable expectation that someone without a UVB meter will be able to replicate the general levels. My excitement with the Arcadia fixture is that I have a direct line to the person responsible for the design and he will share everything about it. I like having someone personally responsible being a member of the community. There is a direct feedback loop and responsibility. It takes me days to test all the bulbs and sizes. I feel like I have lost days of my life working with the Odyssea fixtures and want something better to take its place.

While we are talking here, do you have experience with the Vivosun fixtures? I am new to them. I like them, but I have just started putting hours behind using them.
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FYI, I’m raising a 1.2 pardalis, a 1.1 tjj, and a 1.1 tjx on earth pro a with no additional A, or D3 ( besides the very small amounts in repashy superload I use occasionally. )
 
JacksJill said:
It is a good question but anyone overdosing D3 is unlikely to realize they are doing so. I see folks here and on FB all the time giving too much and believing they are on a good schedule. Some don't even know it's not given daily in strong amounts. Add in the variable of lightly vs heavily dusting, good vs poor lighting. It would be hard to extract the info for anything but an apples to oranges comparison.
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Also a good point.
 
DeremensisBlue said:
While we are talking here, do you have experience with the Vivosun fixtures? I am new to them. I like them, but I have just started putting hours behind using them.
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That is a good point and good reasoning.

However avaiblity would be my major fear in that regard. However in that example, you could use the VE or Biodude model, should be same effect.

I have not, I am not a fan of using T5s tbh, so double and quads have never caught my attention. For plants I use a single T5 if I use them at all, and for UVB the same. They consume too much power for the lumens for me to want to use more than 1 personally.

I have heard good things about them though.
 
@DeremensisBlue ...keep in mind this isn't for chameleons specifically...and RAR is vitamin A receptor...
"RXR scarcity can derive from:
  1. absolute lack of RXR (diet poor in proteins??)
  2. relative lack due to sequestration of RXR by an increased number of a specific liganded receptor (TR, VDR; RAR etc)"
http://flipper.diff.org/app/pathways/info/7906

Another...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8524311

More..."In support of this hypothesis, retinoic acid (RA), although itself a weak agonist, completely dampens the more potent transactivational effect of D3, the active form of vitamin D3. Thus, we have identified a novel steroid hormone response element in which one steroid hormone modulates the transactivating function of another by competing for a half-site, which is common to two separate response elements"....
https://www.jbc.org/content/271/34/20650.full.pdf
 
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kinyonga said:
@DeremensisBlue ...keep in mind this isn't for chameleons specifically...and RAR is vitamin A receptor...
"RXR scarcity can derive from:
  1. absolute lack of RXR (diet poor in proteins??)
  2. relative lack due to sequestration of RXR by an increased number of a specific liganded receptor (TR, VDR; RAR etc)"
http://flipper.diff.org/app/pathways/info/7906

Another...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8524311

More..."In support of this hypothesis, retinoic acid (RA), although itself a weak agonist, completely dampens the more potent transactivational effect of D3, the active form of vitamin D3. Thus, we have identified a novel steroid hormone response element in which one steroid hormone modulates the transactivating function of another by competing for a half-site, which is common to two separate response elements"....
https://www.jbc.org/content/271/34/20650.full.pdf
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Thank you for the tips. But I am happy to have a couple more clues to consider!
 
@JacksJill @DeremensisBlue @kinyonga @Kaizen

Thank you everybody for your input on the supplements, VitA&D3, lights, links to studies on these and everything else provided here. I've switched over to the supplements and am using Repashy Calcium Plus LoD. I'll update this thread when I start to see results, or lack thereof.

Going back to having an ingredients list for the Earth Pro-A, this was a response I received from John. Not trying to portray him in any negative or positive light here. Just thought this might be beneficial to someone.


"No problem. You can find the ingredients list in order of inclusion as is a legal requirement here https://www.arcadiareptile.com/earthpro/supplements/earthpro-a/



EarthPro-A is a full-spectrum mineral powder that is all-natural in its make up. We add in no synthetics, no preservatives, smells or colours.



The mineral complex is fully and naturally balanced in nature as it is included from a natural mineral clay. This is opposite to all other brands that use a lab approximation of how much per mineral an animal may use per day, and then that is mixed per mineral. Ours is taken from nature, is fully balanced and therefore highly bioavailable.



We add CaCo3 to this along with a plant based Amino complex that is fully inclusive of all essential and non-essential aminos



We also add our very potent and totally full-spectrum natural carotenoid complex to this. Carotenoids as you will know allow the body to manufacture and regulate preformed vitamin A in a safe and natural way, but only if the whole carotenoid spectrum is provided. There is no point at all in just using Beta-Carotene as example. To be fully effective they whole spectrum must be provided in balance.



We also add in Bee Pollen and our water soluble B vitamin complex as you can see from the webpage.



The mineral clay base has a guaranteed analysis thus; Mineral Clay; SiO2 57.74%, Al2O3 18.23%, Fe2O3 3.09%, CaO 1.93%, MgO 4.19%, K2O 3.03%,Na2O 1.72%, P2O3 0.13%, TiO2 0.39%, Mn3O4 0.08%, V2O5 <0.05%, Cr2O3 <0.05%



Amino Acid complex; (vegetable base) g/kg finished product; Lysine 6.36, Methionine 1.99, Cysteine 1.27, Threonine 4.93, Trytophan 1.19, Valine 5.57, Leucine 8.59, Isoleucine 4.69, Phenylalanine 5.25

Tryosine 4.77, Histidine 1.75, Arginine 4.37, Glycine 4.05, Alanine 4.05, Aspartic Acid 10.26, Glutamic Acid 9.06, Proline 4.05, Serine 4.37



If you have any further questions please do let me know.





John Courteney-Smith MRSB
Arcadia Reptile; Head of Science and Innovation.
New book ‘Fire-The Sun, its Use and Replication in Reptile Keeping’ now available
www.arcadiareptile.com
Join us on Facebook under Arcadiareptile"
 
?Boy was that a read and a lot to take in! WAIT So you don't use earthpro ca or calcium pro? I do earth pro a every feeding and then every 2 weeks earthpro ca and calcium pro... is this incorrect? I still feel just as confused ? haha
 
Kamikaze Chameleon said:
?Boy was that a read and a lot to take in! WAIT So you don't use earthpro ca or calcium pro? I do earth pro a every feeding and then every 2 weeks earthpro ca and calcium pro... is this incorrect? I still feel just as confused ? haha
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There is a ton of information and research presented in this thread. I don’t think anyone can definitely say “you have to do this or you’re putting your animal at risk.”

my thoughts about Arcadia Earthpro-A and why I use them are this.
1) it supplies a phosphorus free calcium source
2) unlike many Ca sources it offers daily inclusion of other essential vitamins
—- B complex vitamins; water soluble, little to no evidence of overdose but essential to multiple functions within the body
—- essential amino acids; again unlikely to overdose. Not going into specifics, but not called “essential” for unsubstantiated reasons
—- broad spectrum carotenoids; I’ll have to rely on theory over concrete science here, but so is being certain carotenoids are useless in vitamin A production in chameleons.
—- mineral clay; anyone that breathes is taking in local “mineral clay” constantly It’s highly unlikely that minerals are not supplemented from the Dust in the Wind so to speak. If you eat off the ground, which includes EVERYTHING a chameleon eats or drinks in the wild, you are accessing a significant amount of mineral supplementation. What’s here over Calcium? Variety (that’s what all diets should have right?)
3) each vitamin and mineral does not function in isolation. As noted earlier D and A can be antagonistic. Many of the vitamins and minerals require their alphabet buddies to be properly absorbed, assimilated, allocated, and/or used
4) bee pollen; everyone needs a magic bullet, maybe this is mine. And it has a $#!+load of these essential vitamins (if they’re accessible to the Cham)

Feeding a large variety of feeders (more than what most of us do: dozens of different feeders, not 5 or 10 or 15) might ensure that all of the B vitamins, amino acids, and carotenoids are available to our chameleons, but EarthaPro-A supplements non-toxic (as far as current science understands) vitamins and minerals daily and ensures availability for those that need a certain Cofactor for absorption or function

I also use CalciumPro-Mg and RevitaliseD3.
With CalciumPro-Mg, I’m a believer. Mg is a key factor in making calcium biologically accessible to the chameleon. Don’t forget calcium’s most important function occurs outside of the bone in a multitude essential biologic functions. This is why MBD happens. The body needs calcium immediately available or multiorgan failure will occur. It takes calcium STORED in the bone for survival even if this leads to degradation of the integrity of the bone.
I use RevitaliseD3 to hedge my bets. I’m fairly certain D3 is unnecessary with proper UVB. I lean towards dietary PREformed A also being non-essential. I buy into the theory of broad spectrum carotenoids providing the necessary substrates for Vitamin A production within the animal (along with many other vitamin cofactors)

I’m not an expert. I don’t have years of experience. I fortunately have access to many of you who are experts, are experienced, and might even be “celebrities”. I listen to the debates, try to research the evidence, listen to experts (some with celebrity status), and then decide how I’ll approach the issue

@kinyonga is a national treasure, but I think I’ll head to Canada instead of trying to claim her for the US
@DeremensisBlue has influenced my husbandry more than anyone in the community through his website and podcast (thank you!)
I’ve listened to several interviews with John Courteney Smith and read a couple of his books. I’m completely convinced that he is striving for optimal care for captive reptiles (if he sells snake oil, those m-fing snakes need it), and his understanding of nutrition is as good as anyone in the hobby

enough rambling. I’m going to have a shot of earthpro Kool aid and go to bed
 
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