water causing edema?

[djfishygillz]

I think Ataraxia's point, and why he keeps having to repeat it, is that your experience is not the case here because no high D3 fortified supplements or gutload has been used by the OP, as she has stated several times. So with that excluded, edema in a neonate is very unusual because there isn't a history of long term underlying exposure that could have accumulated.

A congenital defect is most likely imo to see it this young.

I used flukers cricket diet with d3 as a last resort because I didn't have time to make a good gutload, in one week saw swelling with some babies. I stopped that crap diet of course and went back to the normal gutload and it went right away. So I second what ferret is saying. Very good point. Commercial diets have way to much d3 for any chameleons to be eating feeders gutloaded with it.

 

[ataraxia]

For fruit flies.
1. Get a separate empty 32oz deli cup.
2. Place just a very small pinch of dust but enough to coat the flies good enough in the empty deli cup. (You will learn how much is needed.) It is better to do this before just in case you dump in too much.
3. On the FF deli cup, tap down on the top of the container pretty good before opening. you want to tap just hard enough to knock the flies from the top and sides down.
4. Tilt the container over the empty container and either tap or gently shake out as many as you need.
5. Once you have as many as you want in the container shake it. Coating the flies will help disorient them and you wont have as many escaping as they cant see.

 

[Oliviabryant]

lol its hard enough to keep a million of um from escaping the jar when i open it... they swarm to the top lol last time i tried the bag thing they disnt make it lol guess i shook too had

Sorry If someone's already asked but have you looked into buying small feeders online ?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

...what did the supplier of your feeders use to gutload their insects with before they were shipped to you?"

This is something I hadn't really considered. For those interested, this is what Fluker Farms uses for their crickets at their facility: ground corn and wheat middling, with fish meal protein (protein 19%, fat 5%, fiber 9%).

Fish meal would have considerable levels of both vitamin A and D as well as protein...

 

[Saldarya]

This is something I hadn't really considered. For those interested, this is what Fluker Farms uses for their crickets at their facility: ground corn and wheat middling, with fish meal protein (protein 19%, fat 5%, fiber 9%).

Fish meal would have considerable levels of both vitamin A and D as well as protein...

Can we assume that most large cricket breeders use similar feed?

Also, how long might those nutrients and vitamins remain in the cricket itself?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Can we assume that most large cricket breeders use similar feed?

I'd like to know too! I've contacted other major cricket farms to ask the same question. I'll update as they reply.

Also, how long might those nutrients and vitamins remain in the cricket itself?

Another thing I'd like to know too! I'll see what I can find in a literature search that might have that answer.

 

[juice28]

Sorry If someone's already asked but have you looked into buying small feeders online ?

I ordered some but they got delivered late and sat in the sun and died...i have an odd work schedule 11-8...mon-fri. And FedEx and ups doesn't do sat deliveries

 

[pamnsam94]

I'd like to know too! I've contacted other major cricket farms to ask the same question. I'll update as they reply.



Another thing I'd like to know too! I'll see what I can find in a literature search that might have that answer.

Okay. I lied about saying I would bow out from this thread. Finding the answers to those two questions would be fantastic!! The answers would go a long way in alleviating my fears of using commercially bred crickets. Having that info will allow us to a make more informed decision about what suppliers to use for our feeders.

I really hope most of the suppliers will be forthcoming in disclosing what they feed their crickets, but I've read before that many either won't be, or else they don't really know the actual concentrations of various vitamins in the feeds they use.

Regarding the second question, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts on this thread, John Annis, first editor of the Chameleon Information Network, had baby T. montium get edemas even after keeping the crickets on a diet free of the vitamin fortified gutload the supplier used for a period of two weeks, suggesting that crickets are capable of storing D3 in their tissues for at least that long. However, I'm unaware of any follow-up studies to determine just how long fat soluble vitamins can be stored by various insects after being gutloaded with vitamin fortified foods.

Perry

 

[juice28]

I used flukers cricket diet with d3 as a last resort because I didn't have time to make a good gutload, in one week saw swelling with some babies. I stopped that crap diet of course and went back to the normal gutload and it went right away. So I second what ferret is saying. Very good point. Commercial diets have way to much d3 for any chameleons to be eating feeders gutloaded with it.

i read a post on here..forget what it was called...but he mentioned using flukers cricket diet and having that affect as well

 

[juice28]

For fruit flies.
1. Get a separate empty 32oz deli cup.
2. Place just a very small pinch of dust but enough to coat the flies good enough in the empty deli cup. (You will learn how much is needed.) It is better to do this before just in case you dump in too much.
3. On the FF deli cup, tap down on the top of the container pretty good before opening. you want to tap just hard enough to knock the flies from the top and sides down.
4. Tilt the container over the empty container and either tap or gently shake out as many as you need.
5. Once you have as many as you want in the container shake it. Coating the flies will help disorient them and you wont have as many escaping as they cant see.

must be great minds lol i tried that and it worked pretty good..just used my hand and covered the cup and gave it a good swirl.. it wasnt a 32oz cup.. i just did in the feeder cup.. had to do it a few times though...puttoo much in and had to wash it out..flies inculded but i figured ,...i have 2 cultures of FF...for one cham.....i have the flies to loses lol

 

[juice28]

On a different note... I want to thank everyone for sharing all of their knowledge experience and ideas to help solve this issue for my lil female panther...which is much bigger than just for my cham..but for everyone who has experienced edemas...this is probably one of the best threads of knowledge with many different ideas and treatments and causes...combined in one single thread that ive read.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Commercially raised crickets feedstuffs

Fluker Farms: ground corn and wheat middling, with fish meal protein (protein 19%, fat 5%, fiber 9%)

Armstrong Crickets: a formulated cricket and worm feed with the following - Crude protein min 20%, crude fat min 5%, crude fiber max 9%, Cal min 0.8% max 1.2%, Phos min 0.6%, primary ingredients grain products, plant protein products, forage products, cane molasses, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, DL-methionine, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, and the list goes on for a while...

Timberline Crickets and LLL Reptile: 19% crude protein, 5% min crude fat, 9% max crude fiber. Primary ingredients contain corn, wheat middlings, soybean meal, meat meal, fish meal, preserved animal fat, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, ... vitamin A acetate, cholecalciferol, and the list goes on for a while...

Mulberry Farms hasn't had crickets in months.

 

[pigglett79]

These are interesting findings. I am really hoping we can figure out the cause of the edema. Today I switched all of my feeders to gut loads that do not contain any D3. I made my own dry as well as wet and made sure all ingredients do not have any D3 in them.

After reading various journal articles all studies show that the appropriate UVb light seems to provide adequate D3 metabolites in the plasma, meaning that the additional supplement may not be necessary. George (my panther with edema) does not eat crickets. So it is going to be pretty easy for me to eliminate all D3 from his diet and evaluate whether this helps to improve his condition.

Edit: Just thought of another thing, I bet the commercial hornworm chow also contains D3. I will try to find out, but my guys eat a lot of horn worms so I guess I need to look in to this as well. I just had a bunch of moths emerge tonight so I better work fast.

Edit again: Yes hornworm chow has multivitamins in it therefore, it does contain D3. I will be making sure to feed the worms only veggies for some time prior to feeding off. Looks like I need to make hornworm chow that is D3 free as well.

 

[Oliviabryant]

Can we start a thread on just feeders- nutrional value and which company's use what? That would be a good one to have at the top of the list always

 

[Saldarya]

Commercially raised crickets feedstuffs

Fluker Farms: ground corn and wheat middling, with fish meal protein (protein 19%, fat 5%, fiber 9%)

Armstrong Crickets: a formulated cricket and worm feed with the following - Crude protein min 20%, crude fat min 5%, crude fiber max 9%, Cal min 0.8% max 1.2%, Phos min 0.6%, primary ingredients grain products, plant protein products, forage products, cane molasses, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, salt, DL-methionine, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, and the list goes on for a while...

Timberline Crickets and LLL Reptile: 19% crude protein, 5% min crude fat, 9% max crude fiber. Primary ingredients contain corn, wheat middlings, soybean meal, meat meal, fish meal, preserved animal fat, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, ... vitamin A acetate, cholecalciferol, and the list goes on for a while...

Mulberry Farms hasn't had crickets in months.

Thank you Ferret.

Like Pigglet, I just went and found and ordered the product needed to make my dry gutload with no added vitamins and supplements other than what the natural ingredients provide. It wasn't that much more expensive and it will allow me to control the input.

I do breed my own crickets, but do occasionally grab a few 1000 babys to help fill in the gaps. Clearly getting 1 week old crickets commercially and then switching them over to a more Cham friendly gutload will be easier than buying adult crickets that have been raised on it for weeks.

I agree with Olivia, perhaps start a new thread where we can discuss the attempt to gutload free of unintended supplements focused towards impacting edema.

Bobby

 

[juice28]

I wonder why protein is so high in commercial gutloads for reptile feeders when protein in high amounts really isn't good..

 

[ataraxia]

Hows the young one?

 

[juice28]

So far she's ok. Still eating and drinking, no luck with getting the edema gone it went down a bit but still there but she seems to be a trooper. Only time will tell though. Thanks for checking

 

[juice28]

just updating...took my lil girl outside for some sun and noticed the edema is still there but isnt quite as big as before. it doesnt seem to be bothering her, shes more active now than when i got her, eating pretty much all day and drinking regularly. I did switch her water to bottled water, just trying it for a test run to see if it will....flush anything not supposed to or in mass amounts out of her little system.

BEFORE:

TODAY:

 

[ataraxia]

Wonderful news. It does appear better than before. I hope the little one pullls through this.
Thanks for the update.