water causing edema?

[pigglett79]

I should also note that edema can be caused in a few days by feeding crickets dusted with pure calcium (no D3) if those crickets were gutloaded with D3 fortified foods, which supports that hypervitaminosis D3 is often the cause of organ malfunction. Feeding crickets or any insects that have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio, as most feeders usually have with the exception of black soldier fly larvae, will, over time, result in metabolic bone disease if not corrected for by adding additional calcium (dusting with pure calcium or gutloading with high calcium greens, etc.), but too much dietary D3 can, in short order (a matter of days with montane species), definitely cause organ malfunction resulting in edema. I've never experienced an edema in montanes by feeding non-dusted insects (high phosphorus to calcium ratio) that were not gutloaded with vitamin fortified foods.

Perry

Which commonly used foods would you say are vitamin D fortified? I mainly use veggies, none of which are high in vitamin D so I am assuming you are referring to some dry or commercial gut loads?

 

[pamnsam94]

Yet another case where D3 isn't the cause.


This is exactly what I have been doing with supplementation, and sometimes even a little more than a month apart and yet two of my montanes recently broke with edema.


I understand that but fortunately what has worked for me is extremely safe to test out - more hydration, severely limiting phosphorus in food, and sunlight. All things that are good for chameleons anyway and nothing that should cause harm regardless of the cause. For increased hydration hornworms especially help and you can drip some extra water into her mouth while she's chewing on bugs if she'll let you get close to her while eating.

Of course D3 isn't always the cause of edema since there are many causes of organ malfunction and/or damage. It's not surprising in the least that there are other causes of edema. However, as a rule, I first determine whether any supplemental D3 was given to the chameleon, either through dusting or through a commercial gutload because so many of those products do contain D3 and often, a lot of it. Again, before ruling out hypervitaminosis D3, it is very important to know what your feeders were gutloaded with by the supplier before you received them because, in many instances, insects suppliers use gutloads that contain D3 and other fat soluble vitamins that insects can store in their tissues (at least two weeks as suggested by the CiN experiment).

If only a couple of neonates develop edemas, that doesn't rule out hypervitaminosis D3 as a possible cause because metabolisms vary between animals. The safest way to provide adequate D3 is by exposing our chameleons to sunlight. Lamps that produce UVB are usually safe enough if the levels produced are not in excess, but when using them, there is always the concern that a particular neonate (raised in a group setting) might not be getting enough UVB. For instance, some individuals might not be spending as much time in the ideal UVB and/or temperature locations in an enclosure due to dominance issues, etc.. Under that scenario (a group setting), the animals will presumably metabolize vitamins and minerals differently. To make sure all the neonates are getting enough D3, we sometimes dust with it once or twice a month or else we gutload our feeders with a vitamin fortified formula we feel is safe to use (particularly one containing low levels of D3). When we take that approach, however, we must be prepared to immediately back off vitamin supplementation in general on the individuals that develop the edemas. When quick action is taken at the first slightest sign of any edema, it's been my experience those edemas will disappear completely. Presumably, no permanent damage had been done. Of course, when providing supplemental D3, it's also important to provide it in the "proper" ratio to other vitamins, particularly preformed vitamin A.

If hypervitaminosis D3 can definitely be ruled out (no D3 even in the gutload of the keeper or the insect supplier), then I would look into other causes of what might have caused it. That's just my way of doing things and it's been working very well for me, although it took me many years before I consistently used that approach. Although my mind can be changed with more evidence, for the time being, I'm definitely in the camp that believes that most cases of reported edemas can be traced to hypervitaminosis D3, although I have no doubt there are many causes.

Because there are so many products out there (commercial gutloads and powdered supplements) that are highly fortified with vitamins, many of which do not even provide how many I.U. (international units) per kg of each vitamin they contain for us to make valuable comparisons. IMO we shouldn't be surprised when keepers run into problems with their animals when using those products.

Perry

 

[pamnsam94]

Which commonly used foods would you say are vitamin D fortified? I mainly use veggies, none of which are high in vitamin D so I am assuming you are referring to some dry or commercial gut loads?

That's right. I'm referring to commercial gutloads. Like you, I use veggies. I also use other whole foods (non-fortified cereals/grains) when gutloading and avoid commercial gutloads. If I were to use a commercial gutload, I'd especially make sure that I knew how many I.U. per kg of D3 and preformed vitamin A it contained. Also, I'd certainly gravitate to those gutloads that didn't contain either of those fat soluble vitamins, simply because my current method of providing them has been working well for me. I dust once or twice a month (depending on several variables) with a product that is low in both D3 and preformed A and I'm satisfied with the results.

 

[pigglett79]

That's right. I'm referring to commercial gutloads. Like you, I use veggies. I also use other whole foods (non-fortified cereals/grains) when gutloading and avoid commercial gutloads. If I were to use a commercial gutload, I'd especially make sure that I knew how many I.U. per kg of D3 and preformed vitamin A it contained. Also, I'd certainly gravitate to those gutloads that didn't contain either of those fat soluble vitamins, simply because my current method of providing them has been working well for me. I dust once or twice a month (depending on several variables) with a product that is low in both D3 and preformed A and I'm satisfied with the results.

I really think you do have a point. When my panther developed the edema it was right around the time that I started making a blended gut load rather than my usual method of just cutting up veggies and throwing them in with the bugs. Since I was blending it all together I figured the more the merrier. I ended up putting several veggies that were high in vitamin A as well as sunflower seeds and dry gut load.

After I noticed the edema I tried to hydrate him more, get him out in the sun more and stopped dusting with everything except plain calcium. I then was more particular with my gut load ingredients and started alternating with a few ingredients at a time, but what I didn’t realize is I was still using a lot of the dry gut load (which is a commercial brand). I then realized that the dry gut load does have vitamin A and D, both of which I was trying to minimize. And hence his edema has not improved.

My new approach, just beginning this week, is to make my own gut load, including the dry portion, in order to avoid the vitamin D and minimize A so that I can see if this helps to improve his condition.

Edit: Although he is a picky eater and eats more silks, horns and isopods than he does roaches and the roaches are the ones getting the dry gut load. So he eats maybe 7 roaches in a month and a tons of horns and silks. SO I still dont know if the dry gut load adding vitamin D can explain his continued edema.

I am enjoying all of the intelligent discussion happening on this thread and do hope for a positive outcome.

Thank You

 

[Saldarya]

I really think you do have a point. When my panther developed the edema it was right around the time that I started making a blended gut load rather than my usual method of just cutting up veggies and throwing them in with the bugs. Since I was blending it all together I figured the more the merrier. I ended up putting several veggies that were high in vitamin A as well as sunflower seeds and dry gut load.

After I noticed the edema I tried to hydrate him more, get him out in the sun more and stopped dusting with everything except plain calcium. I then was more particular with my gut load ingredients and started alternating with a few ingredients at a time, but what I didn’t realize is I was still using a lot of the dry gut load (which is a commercial brand). I then realized that the dry gut load does have vitamin A and D, both of which I was trying to minimize. And hence his edema has not improved.

My new approach, just beginning this week, is to make my own gut load, including the dry portion, in order to avoid the vitamin D and minimize A so that I can see if this helps to improve his condition.

I am enjoying all of the intelligent discussion happening on this thread and do hope for a positive outcome.

Thank You

Pigglet, to your point, what are you then using for the dry Gutload. I have some concerns that the materials that I am using may collectively have to much of these vitamins in it.

Thanks n advance.

Bobby

 

[Oliviabryant]

Edema is accumulation of fluid in a part of the body, some times due to lack of proper protein absorption-


Hypoproteinemia - affects the Glomerulus which leads to -Nephrotic syndrome-
"Sometimes a glomerular disease also interferes with the clearance of waste products by the kidney, so they begin to build up in the blood. Furthermore, loss of blood proteins like albumin in the urine can result in a fall in their level in the bloodstream. In normal blood, albumin acts like a sponge, drawing extra fluid from the body into the bloodstream, where it remains until the kidneys remove it. But when albumin leaks into the urine, the blood loses its capacity to absorb extra fluid from the body. Fluid can accumulate outside the circulatory system "

Works cited
Eric P. Cohen, MD
Walter F. Piering, MD
Lakshmi Raman, MD
Kevin Regner, MD

 

[pigglett79]

Pigglet, to your point, what are you then using for the dry Gutload. I have some concerns that the materials that I am using may collectively have to much of these vitamins in it.

Thanks n advance.

Bobby

For the dry portion I am going to use rice bran, nuts, spirulina, dried basil, dried apples, millet seed, dried coconut and Mineral outdoor. I will use this in addition to my fresh veggies.

 

[deadhd5]

Great discussion.

My main thoughts after reading this thread and other linked articles on the topic is as follows:

1.) Edema results from organs that remove toxins from the body not functioning properly (kidneys, liver).

2.) Edema can be triggered by a variety of things that put pressure on organs that are tasked to remove excess toxins from the body (kidney, liver). Poor calc-phos ratio, excess D3 or vitamin A, excess protein could all potentially be triggers.

3.) Some individual chameleons are more sensitive than others to the triggers of edema. This sensitivity could be related to many things including genetic predisposition (like diabetes in humans), damage to kidneys or liver from prior care, or maybe even the nutrition in-utero.

Whatever the answer is, just like every aspect of chameleon keeping, it is not a simple answer

 

[ataraxia]

thanks for noticing the key point in the fact that no supplements are used...unless mom was and it was passed on via development lol, but you say you have had this happen to a few...how did they fair? Did they all die...or most of them die or did they.....outgrow it or what? I know its not difinarive but from someone who's experienced it, what was the ratio that you observed?

Im sorry that i did mislead you earlier when stating the ratio will be 50/50 on making it. I dont like to say 100% because in life nothing is. In my cases it was 100% mortality within 4 months. I dont want that to discourage you as you may find the answer by trying what you can. Please keep us updated with this little one.

I should also note that edema can be caused in a few days by feeding crickets dusted with pure calcium (no D3) if those crickets were gutloaded with D3 fortified foods, which supports that hypervitaminosis D3 is often the cause of organ malfunction.
Perry

Whats being stated in red. Im sorry, If you are stating this is true for neonate panthers, veileds under three months...I dont believe what you are saying. If i didnt know any better i would but i know better.

I do believe you can possibly do this with animals older than 3 months but done within a few feedings again i dont believe it at all... I dont believe you can do this with animals younger than three months without grossly going beyond what you know should be the animals limits. Im not going to go there with animals that might be sensitive because of malfunctioning organs. Im talking about 99.999% of newly hatched to 3 months. Again we are talking about a 8 week panther here.

I do agree that there are many different causes to edema (some are age, species specific) and we are all still at the mercy of vet findings, researchers etc. to help narrow it down.

 

[pamnsam94]

Im sorry that i did mislead you earlier when stating the ratio will be 50/50 on making it. I dont like to say 100% because in life nothing is. In my cases it was 100% mortality within 4 months. I dont want that to discourage you as you may find the answer by trying what you can. Please keep us updated with this little one.



Whats being stated in red. Im sorry, If you are stating this is true for neonate panthers, veileds under three months...I dont believe what you are saying. If i didnt know any better i would but i know better.

I do believe you can possibly do this with animals older than 3 months but done within a few feedings again i dont believe it at all... I dont believe you can do this with animals younger than three months without grossly going beyond what you know should be the animals limits. Im not going to go there with animals that might be sensitive because of malfunctioning organs. Im talking about 99.999% of newly hatched to 3 months. Again we are talking about a 8 week panther here.

I do agree that there are many different causes to edema (some are age specific) and we are all still at the mercy of vet findings, researchers etc. to help narrow it down.

Again, my experience is with mostly with montane species, not panthers. With Trioceros johnstoni, T. montium and T. melleri, you can cause organ malfunction, resulting in edema, in neonates within days (under a week) if you feed them calcium (no D3) dusted feeders that were fed with a high D3 fortified commercial gutload. I can give you a first hand detailed account of how the edemas occurred within days in neonate melleri and johnstoni if you are interested. Panthers may be different as I have no experience with them.

Perry

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

you can cause organ malfunction, resulting in edema, in neonates within days (under a week) if you feed them calcium (no D3) dusted feeders that were fed with a high D3 fortified commercial gutload.

I think Ataraxia's point, and why he keeps having to repeat it, is that your experience is not the case here because no high D3 fortified supplements or gutload has been used by the OP, as she has stated several times. So with that excluded, edema in a neonate is very unusual because there isn't a history of long term underlying exposure that could have accumulated.

A congenital defect is most likely imo to see it this young.

 

[pamnsam94]

I think Ataraxia's point, and why he keeps having to repeat it, is that your experience is not the case here because no high D3 fortified supplements or gutload has been used by the OP, as she has stated several times. So with that excluded, edema in a neonate is very unusual because there isn't a history of long term underlying exposure that could have accumulated.

I hope that those reading this thread understand that the OP was referring to a neonate panther. I didn't mean to get off topic by bringing up edemas in other species. Of course, it's generally agreed that montanes are more sensitive to supplements. However, I still wouldn't be quick to rule out D3 as a possibility since individual metabolisms can vary due to various reasons but especially because, unless I missed it (I apologize if I did), we don't know what gutloads the feeders were fed with by the feeder supplier and what the concentrations of vitamins were in those gutloads (e.g. X I.U. of Y per kg of gutload).

I've received dubia roaches before that I foolishly fed (after lightly dusting them with pure calcium) to baby quads within a couple of days of receiving them. Within a week, some of the babies developed slight edemas despite never having had any previously. Upon calling the supplier, I was told that he fed his roaches with a specific dog food, which was fortified with many vitamins including D3. Again though, I'm talking about a montane species, something I made clear in my first post when I only wanted to add my 2 cents worth, thinking it might be of some value, even though the topic is specifically about panthers. Now that I've put my 2 cents worth in, I'll humbly bow out and leave the discussion to pardalis keepers.

Perry

 

[juice28]

I think Ataraxia's point, and why he keeps having to repeat it, is that your experience is not the case here because no high D3 fortified supplements or gutload has been used by the OP, as she has stated several times. So with that excluded, edema in a neonate is very unusual because there isn't a history of long term underlying exposure that could have accumulated.

A congenital defect is most likely imo to see it this young.

im thinking its something like that....oh on the OP poster ...me.. is not a SHE lol the cham is a she but im not LOL

 

[juice28]

I should also note that edema can be caused in a few days by feeding crickets dusted with pure calcium (no D3) if those crickets were gutloaded with D3 fortified foods, which supports that hypervitaminosis D3 is often the cause of organ malfunction. Feeding crickets or any insects that have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio, as most feeders usually have with the exception of black soldier fly larvae, will, over time, result in metabolic bone disease if not corrected for by adding additional calcium (dusting with pure calcium or gutloading with high calcium greens, etc.), but too much dietary D3 can, in short order (a matter of days with montane species), definitely cause organ malfunction resulting in edema. I've never experienced an edema in montanes by feeding non-dusted insects (high phosphorus to calcium ratio) that were not gutloaded with vitamin fortified foods.

Perry

she hasent had crickets as of yet, and i did use some plain calcium on her first feeding.. i put a super tiny minute little bit in the feeder cup.. basically i got a small pinch and i let a little of the... "fall off dust" land in the cup and then used my finger to spread it around the bottom.. it wasnt even enough to be visually seen and i dropped the fruit flies in the cup so they just kinda walked around in it if they picked up any at all...havent dusted since

 

[ataraxia]

Plain calcium on all feeders and as much outside time as you can.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

im thinking its something like that....oh on the OP poster ...me.. is not a SHE lol the cham is a she but im not LOL

Sorry about that!

 

[juice28]

Sorry about that!

lol it all good no sweat

 

[juice28]

Plain calcium on all feeders and as much outside time as you can.

is ther a trick to dusting FF without...killing them from being covered n powder..

On a different note.. her edema is going down a lil bit every day. ive noticed that its smaller early and late when the temps cooler..but mid day its pretty big when the temp is at its hottest, shes also much more active during those times as well so im dropping her cage to about 80 to see how she does and if it makes a difference

 

[Chameleopatrick]

is ther a trick to dusting FF without...killing them from being covered n powder..

Less calcium in the Baggie for dusting?

 

[juice28]

lol its hard enough to keep a million of um from escaping the jar when i open it... they swarm to the top lol last time i tried the bag thing they disnt make it lol guess i shook too had