water causing edema?

[Chameleopatrick]

Another link...http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/01/health-section-f-gout_28.html

Im sorry guys/gales but it is not going to be hypervitaminosis in a young panther such as this. Maybe in an adult but not a baby, sorry. The only option i can explore with this possibility is organ defect straight from the egg.

Carol: I was worried you would take it wrong. I dont always say things in the right way, as she tells me a lot! Its frustrating isnt it! Id imagine it depends on the level of damage or time subjected to whats causing the issue to the organ to say how long it will function for life.

Great article thanks. How did you determine that these symptoms can't happen to a young chameleon? I suspect if the exposure was high enough problems can occur at any stage in life. Don't you agree?

 

[Oliviabryant]

Great article thanks. How did you determine that these symptoms can't happen to a young chameleon? I suspect if the exposure was high enough problems can occur at any stage in life. Don't you agree?

its funny when i quoted this article on the third page no one read it..

 

[ataraxia]

Great article thanks. How did you determine that these symptoms can't happen to a young chameleon? I suspect if the exposure was high enough problems can occur at any stage in life. Don't you agree?

I have had this with my own neonates before and i can say 100% it is not from too much d3 or vitA.

I have hatched veileds, panthers, raised hoehnelii since the drop, where a few from a clutch will do exactly this. I also recently received a clutch of oustaleti that a member here that goes by the name of coldbloodedal has seen with his own eyes and a few had this exact problem. I did not raise the oustaleti to the point i got them but the gentleman i got them from did nOt use preformed vitamins in excess. I do not raise babies with preformed vitamins in excess. The op has stated they dont use it in excess. FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN YOUNG CHAMELEONS. I CAN SAY FOR 100% IT IS NOT FROM TOO MUCH D3 OR VIT A. This all aside from another point. I know of breeders that do use products with vit d3 more than what is recommended with no ill affects on baby veiled and panther chameleons.

 

[ataraxia]

its funny when i quoted this article on the third page no one read it..

Honestly, i dont think many on here are reading past the thread title.

 

[pamnsam94]

Great article thanks. How did you determine that these symptoms can't happen to a young chameleon? I suspect if the exposure was high enough problems can occur at any stage in life. Don't you agree?

Although I don't have experience with panther chameleons (as I mentioned, I've worked primarily with montane species), I agree that hypervitaminosis can happen at any stage in life. Again, organ malfunction resulting in edema can be caused by a variety of things, but often hypervitaminosis D3 is the culprit. Within a few days I can easily cause an edema in a neonate T. quadricornis, a T. melleri, or a T. johnstoni just by feeding non-supplemented crickets (no supplements) that have been gutloaded with high vitamin D3 fortified foods, though don't ask me to do it to one of my babies.

 

[pamnsam94]

I have hatched veileds, panthers, raised hoehnelii since the drop, where a few from a clutch will do exactly this. I also recently received a clutch of oustaleti that a member here that goes by the name of coldbloodedal has seen with his own eyes and a few had this exact problem. I did not raise the oustaleti to the point i got them but the gentleman i got them from did nOt use preformed vitamins in excess. I do not raise babies with preformed vitamins in excess. The op has stated they dont use it in excess. FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN YOUNG CHAMELEONS. I CAN SAY FOR 100% IT IS NOT FROM TOO MUCH D3 OR VIT A. This all aside from another point. I know of breeders that do use products with vit d3 more than what is recommended with no ill affects on baby veiled and panther chameleons.

Determining whether a particular vitamin is given in excess or not is hard to determine because an animal's metabolism can vary depending not only species but upon its age, the temperature it's kept at, whether it's a male or female, etc. and many other things. Even animals of the same species from the same clutch, kept under identical conditions will have different metabolisms, which is why, in part, we notice different growth rates and why we sometimes notice that some individuals from one clutch might get an edema while most of them do not.

When I've gone to great efforts to avoid all forms of supplemental D3, both in gutloads and powdered supplements, and only let neonates produce their own D3 by exposing them to UVB, I've never had even a single animal develop any hint of edema whatsoever. Because of that "success" of no edemas developing, I once told myself I would never give supplemental D3 under any circumstance. However, since I don't house my chameleons outdoors (all UVB exposure is from exposure to UVB lamps), I had reasons to believe that some of the neonates that I house in groups (like quads and Meller's) were not all getting ideal exposure to the UVB rays so I now use powdered D3 once to twice a month but with great caution.

Perry

 

[ataraxia]

Within a few days I can easily cause an edema in a neonate T. quadricornis, a T. melleri, or a T. johnstoni just by feeding non-supplemented crickets (no supplements) that have been gutloaded with high vitamin D3 fortified foods, though don't ask me to do it to one of my babies.

Supports the Ca/p imbalance. Crickets naturally have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio. You have to fix this with supplements. http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I have hatched veileds, panthers, raised hoehnelii since the drop, where a few from a clutch will do exactly this. I also recently received a clutch of oustaleti that a member here that goes by the name of coldbloodedal has seen with his own eyes and a few had this exact problem. I did not raise the oustaleti to the point i got them but the gentleman i got them from did nOt use preformed vitamins in excess. I do not raise babies with preformed vitamins in excess. The op has stated they dont use it in excess. FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN YOUNG CHAMELEONS. I CAN SAY FOR 100% IT IS NOT FROM TOO MUCH D3 OR VIT A. This all aside from another point. I know of breeders that do use products with vit d3 more than what is recommended with no ill affects on baby veiled and panther chameleons.

You didn't answer my last question so how about this one. What do you consider excess? How is that measured? Too much at one time? Too frequently? All of the above?

My point is, some people (chameleons) may think ONE time is excess. To the novice, they never ever know, Until its too late. I always enjoy our sharing of ideas. Thank you.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Determining whether a particular vitamin is given in excess or not is hard to determine because an animal's metabolism can vary depending not only species but upon its age, the temperature it's kept at, whether it's a male or female, etc. and many other things. Even animals of the same species from the same clutch, kept under identical conditions will have different metabolisms, which is why, in part, we notice different growth rates and why we sometimes notice that some individuals from one clutch might get an edema while most of them do not.

When I've gone to great efforts to avoid all forms of supplemental D3, both in gutloads and powdered supplements, and only let neonates produce their own D3 by exposing them to UVB, I've never had even a single animal develop any hint of edema whatsoever. Because of that "success" of no edemas developing, I once told myself I would never give supplemental D3 under any circumstance. However, since I don't house my chameleons outdoors (all UVB exposure is from exposure to UVB lamps), I had reasons to believe that some of the neonates that I house in groups (like quads and Meller's) were not all getting ideal exposure to the UVB rays so I now use powdered D3 once to twice a month but with great caution.

Perry

I used to do the same thing Perry. One Cricket every two weeks. (That's cautious) . These days it's just better lighting, the way it should be. No D3 for me.

 

[pamnsam94]

I used to do the same thing Perry. One Cricket every two weeks. (That's cautious) . These days it's just better lighting, the way it should be. No D3 for me.

I'm not that cautious. For me, it's one feeding a month now with Repashy's Calcium Plus, which contains D3 but in very low amounts. I'm thinking about buying the newer formula of Repashy's Calcium Plus which has even less D3. I'd rather give D3 twice a month at a lower concentration, but I'll still have to use caution.

 

[Oliviabryant]

Supports the Ca/p imbalance. Crickets naturally have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio. You have to fix this with supplements. http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm

some ones getting what Ive been saying this for a few pages now, not that the ratio is the only factor but surely it has a lot to do with sensitivity. Just like allergies, not everyone has them but the ones that do suffer.

 

[ataraxia]

Please read through the post's before being sarcastic.

You didn't answer my last question so how about this one. What do you consider excess? How is that measured? Too much at one time? Too frequently? All of the above?

My point is, some people (chameleons) may think ONE time is excess. To the novice, they never ever know, Until its too late. I always enjoy our sharing of ideas. Thank you.

Supplements - no supplement at this time just calcium w/o D3 and some natural unfiltered sunlight (well the window screen but window is up)

they are eating fruit flies there should not be an over abundance of vitamin A or D3 so what would cause the gular edema if your not using a vitamin supplement?

Excessive is going beyond what is known (has been tested many times over) as a safe limit. You can google excessive if you dont understand the meaning. If you are going out on a limb stating that this chameleon in its eight weeks of life on plain calcium somehow got an excessive amount of d3 or vit A. Your on crack...I cant help it man.

I can be hypothetical if you would like...
"One time" being excessive would support possible organ defect. 20 other clutch mates doing well under the same excessive regimen and 2 show edema would support possible organ defect. I posted this a few post's back in a round about way. I guess if you want to say in these cases are from hypervitaminosis, so be it.

I would definitely be considered novice then. Each time this happened it was a quick onset. I didnt get a letter or a hand wave to tell me "hey, im about to get edema over here".

We dont share thoughts, btw.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Please read through the post's before being sarcastic.







Excessive is going beyond what is known (has been tested many times over) as a safe limit. You can google excessive if you dont understand the meaning. If you are going out on a limb stating that this chameleon in its eight weeks of life on plain calcium somehow got an excessive amount of d3 or vit A. Your on crack...I cant help it man.

I can be hypothetical if you would like...
"One time" being excessive would support possible organ defect. 20 other clutch mates doing well under the same excessive regimen and 2 show edema would support possible organ defect. I posted this a few post's back in a round about way. I guess if you want to say in these cases are from hypervitaminosis, so be it.

I would definitely be considered novice then. Each time this happened it was a quick onset. I didnt get a letter or a hand wave to tell me "hey, im about to get edema over here".

We dont share thoughts, btw.

Ok so we've ruled that out....

 

[juice28]

To the op: I would have to know more details and to be honestly, be there seeing what has happened with my own eyes. I dont use soap on the baby cages. I simply wash the leafs/vines off with water and place paper towel on the floor to catch the feces and urates. Im not saying it can only happen in filthy conditions. If this is indeed the cause, this can happen with a decently clean cage with unseen feces on a leaf or even from freshly dropped feces on the ground.

Im open to anything and everything it if may help. Like stated earlier what seems to work with one doesn't work for another....i dont want to treat my lil girl like a science project but she's going to have to be a test subject for a resolution.

 

[juice28]

its funny when i quoted this article on the third page no one read it..

I read it bi also said that it didn't apply to my situation in an idirect way though lol but I give you props for posting it

 

[juice28]

I have hatched veileds, panthers, raised hoehnelii since the drop, where a few from a clutch will do exactly this. I also recently received a clutch of oustaleti that a member here that goes by the name of coldbloodedal has seen with his own eyes and a few had this exact problem. I did not raise the oustaleti to the point i got them but the gentleman i got them from did nOt use preformed vitamins in excess. I do not raise babies with preformed vitamins in excess. The op has stated they dont use it in excess. FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN YOUNG CHAMELEONS. I CAN SAY FOR 100% IT IS NOT FROM TOO MUCH D3 OR VIT A. This all aside from another point. I know of breeders that do use products with vit d3 more than what is recommended with no ill affects on baby veiled and panther chameleons.

thanks for noticing the key point in the fact that no supplements are used...unless mom was and it was passed on via development lol, but you say you have had this happen to a few...how did they fair? Did they all die...or most of them die or did they.....outgrow it or what? I know its not difinarive but from someone who's experienced it, what was the ratio that you observed?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Ok so we've ruled that out....

Yet another case where D3 isn't the cause.

For me, it's one feeding a month now with Repashy's Calcium Plus, which contains D3 but in very low amounts.

This is exactly what I have been doing with supplementation, and sometimes even a little more than a month apart and yet two of my montanes recently broke with edema.

i dont want to treat my lil girl like a science project but she's going to have to be a test subject for a resolution.

I understand that but fortunately what has worked for me is extremely safe to test out - more hydration, severely limiting phosphorus in food, and sunlight. All things that are good for chameleons anyway and nothing that should cause harm regardless of the cause. For increased hydration hornworms especially help and you can drip some extra water into her mouth while she's chewing on bugs if she'll let you get close to her while eating.

 

[pamnsam94]

Supports the Ca/p imbalance. Crickets naturally have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio. You have to fix this with supplements. http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm

I should also note that edema can be caused in a few days by feeding crickets dusted with pure calcium (no D3) if those crickets were gutloaded with D3 fortified foods, which supports that hypervitaminosis D3 is often the cause of organ malfunction. Feeding crickets or any insects that have a high phosphorus to calcium ratio, as most feeders usually have with the exception of black soldier fly larvae, will, over time, result in metabolic bone disease if not corrected for by adding additional calcium (dusting with pure calcium or gutloading with high calcium greens, etc.), but too much dietary D3 can, in short order (a matter of days with montane species), definitely cause organ malfunction resulting in edema. I've never experienced an edema in montanes by feeding non-dusted insects (high phosphorus to calcium ratio) that were not gutloaded with vitamin fortified foods.

Perry

 

[sandrachameleon]

but I use collards and mustards as my primary staples most of the time.

tangent - have you ever had any concern with using a lot of collards due to their being High in Oxalates?

 

[pigglett79]

Determining whether a particular vitamin is given in excess or not is hard to determine because an animal's metabolism can vary depending not only species but upon its age, the temperature it's kept at, whether it's a male or female, etc. and many other things. Even animals of the same species from the same clutch, kept under identical conditions will have different metabolisms, which is why, in part, we notice different growth rates and why we sometimes notice that some individuals from one clutch might get an edema while most of them do not.

When I've gone to great efforts to avoid all forms of supplemental D3, both in gutloads and powdered supplements, and only let neonates produce their own D3 by exposing them to UVB, I've never had even a single animal develop any hint of edema whatsoever. Because of that "success" of no edemas developing, I once told myself I would never give supplemental D3 under any circumstance. However, since I don't house my chameleons outdoors (all UVB exposure is from exposure to UVB lamps), I had reasons to believe that some of the neonates that I house in groups (like quads and Meller's) were not all getting ideal exposure to the UVB rays so I now use powdered D3 once to twice a month but with great caution.

Perry

I have been reading as many articles on nutrition and metabolism in reptiles that I can find. One you may be interested in, it is with bearded dragons, but still interesting.

"Effects of vitamin D3 supplementation and UVb exposure on the growth and plasma concentration of vitamin D3 metabolites in juvenile bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps). Oonincx DG, Stevens Y, van den Borne JJ, van Leeuwen JP, Hendriks WH"

google it and you will get the PDF. This study showed that groups under UVb alone (reptisun 5.0) had levels of D3 metabolites within the normal range. There are many more details in the article but it suggests that the UVB and proper diet are sufficient to maintain normal levels of D3 without the additional supplements.

An interesting note is that the bearded dragons not exposed to UVb light selected feed items richer in vitamin D.

I too have a chameleon with gular edema and have been researching as much as I can to determine a possible cuase. I mainly use plain calcium for dusting insects, and vary my gut load every couple of weeks. When gut loading I look up the nutritional content of every item to be sure I am not using multiple items high in the same non-water soluble vitamins.