Supplementation/MBD 1

[MWheelock]

To tell you the truth, I have not been able to get the WER diet for some time and use chicken laying feed. I believe some of the ingredients included are bone meal in limited amounts.

Bone meal does include the calcium, phospherous and the cholicalciferol (D3). The only concern about using bone meal as the primary source is the phos.

So yes it does have vit D3. Is this enough??? Don't know.... I suspect that you would need to supplement a little more.


As far as your gravid females, yes, their D3 requirements would be higher when the shells of the eggs are being formed. This does not mean in the wild that they are eatting more and absorbing more calcium in their diet.

It may just mean that they are leaching more calcium from their excess in bone during that time and their bodies make up the difference in the off season.
When they are pregnant in the wild, I would imagine they are more of a target, so hiding (away from direct sun) may be a natural advantage. (Getting eaten is more immediate than calcium deficiency.)

So just like juvies, I like to supplement the gravid females (and recovering females) more often to SLOWLY build back reserves. Not too much or we deal with oversupplementation and gout.

Talk to you later,
Matthew

 

[MWheelock]

Netro,

What type of cham do you have?

Most likely you are oversupplementing.

Use a good gutload (dry) and plenty of different veggies.
Calcium carbonate every day is okay by itself, though is probably unnecessary.

I would use calcium with d3 only once every 1-2 weeks depending on the type of cham you are on.

I might only use the mineral or reptivite once every 1-3 weeks depending on the diet of this adult animal. This is all dependent on the feeders/gutload and lighting you use.

Matthew

 

[Netro]

Netro,

What type of cham do you have?

Most likely you are oversupplementing.

Use a good gutload (dry) and plenty of different veggies.
Calcium carbonate every day is okay by itself, though is probably unnecessary.

I would use calcium with d3 only once every 1-2 weeks depending on the type of cham you are on.

I might only use the mineral or reptivite once every 1-3 weeks depending on the diet of this adult animal. This is all dependent on the feeders/gutload and lighting you use.

Matthew

Thanks for your answer, I have a female pardalis and 20 juveniles...(and 20 more eggs in the incubator...)
I'm giving a good combination of veggies and frut, around 25% frut 75% veggies.
About lightning, 2.0 and 5.0 from exoterra and neodimyum spot also from exoterra, direct sun light almost never.

regards,

 

[Chameleon Caretaker]

Loved the article great to know I've been doing all the right things

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Loved the article great to know I've been doing all the right things

Thank you for bumping.
It's always good to have a review/refresher course of this info, and there are a lot of new members who might not have discovered this.

-Brad

 

[clairf]

Confused

WOW ! What a brilliant thread...certainly woke my brain up...I realise it is a couple of years old but what brilliant information....somuchso it has had me question my feeder feeding regime...a must read for any prospective cham owner for understanding the why's and how's
....
I don't know how much, if any, is lost in language ( I'm in the UK ) or if I am just being a nerd or am just confused now...maybe someone can help me please.

These two quotes are on the same thread and now I don't know if I am doing right. Do I or don't I dust with Phos? Also is calcium carbonate just straight calcium powder ie 2.0 or something different ?

As I say may well be just a terminlogy / country thing but just wanted to check.

Calcium to phosphorus ratio- should be 2:1 (Actual reference ranges will/may vary from reptile species to specie sand
subspecies for exact calcium and phosphorus reference ranges - though ratio
between these two chemicals will roughly be 2:1)

''Calcium carbonate is correct- you are looking for phosphorus free, so a reptile brand would probably be the safest bet. Remember, you can safely give calcium by itself 2-3 times a week, but it is the D3 that needs to be regulated.''

Thanks

 

[MWheelock]

No- you do NOT dust with Phos.

Your cham is getting enough phos from its diet already.

I'd have to go check, but I think that a lot if not all of the reptile calcium supplements are phospherus free. The bigger deal is differentiating between the calcium with and without D3.

I don't know what you have in the UK, but I use Rep-Cal brand (for no particular reason- other than it was one I researched early on and feel good about.) No doubt there are a number of very good products out there.

 

[clairf]

Thank you ...

Thanks for the rapid reply......

I have just collected my bottles and looked online for specific cham feeding and the main one that now concerns me is...Komodo premium insect dusting powder, specifically for chams and it contains 0.35% phos....?

Also have looked at my calcium 2.0 pot and it contains 40IU D3. I was told by supplier, on getting my first cham, that this is only form of real basic, natural calcium....and knowing D3 was necessary as my chams rarely can get out in the sun and rely on UV tube...I fear I have been dusting with this maybe too regularly

I had researched all feeding aspects, both the chams and their feeders, and thought I was catering correctly. The feeders ( locusts - crickets - waxxies ) are gutloaded with cabbage, spring greens, pea shoots, dandelion, watercress, rocket, endive, apple, orange, carrot etc and I leave a tray of bran in there also. They are then dusted before feeding.

Having read your brilliant post Dr Wheelock I am now questioning my regime...

I would be very grateful if you advise me exactly what I should be buying / using to dust and how often please so I know if and how far right or wrong I am.

I have 2 veiled boys, one 5 months, one 6. The 5 month old is an absolute glutton and the other a bit more reserved, eating only a half of the amount ( if that ) but takes more foliage ( fiscus, nastersiuns, passion flower, umberella.
Being in the UK it's quite rare I can get them in natural sunlight so they both live under UV tubes 5.0...both inside the viv so rays are not lost. Both changed every 6 months ( the tubes not the chams )

Many many thanks

 

[Zen Reptiles]

In the dart frog hobby it has been discussed at length that when you mix
a multi-vitamin with the calcium+D3+A you create a competition for absorption
in the gut of the animal.

I'm not sure if it is true with chameleons as well, but separating your different supplements
by at least one day after feeding is a good idea, and never mix your calciums
and multi vitamins together.

This competition in the gut can cause deficiencies.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/16263-human-vitamins.html#post145490

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3269-calcium.html#post26730



For more info you can do some searches on Ed's posts, he's the one with the
greatest wealth of information.

 

[jhadden]

Hi Doc!
I have a few health questions I was hoping you could answer:

What if your veiled refuses to eat fruits and veggies?
Is it okay to just feed my cham crickets and nothing else?
What form do the multi vitamins and vitamin A come in (liquid?)
How cold is too cold for a chameleon at night when his light is off?
Is there one light that has everything my cham needs or do I need two separate types?
Is there one powder that contains all the nutrients for my cham to dust with or does he need a multivitamin and a separate vitamin A?
My cham has what seems to be MBD. What can I do to help him get well?
The end of my cham's tail is black. It looks like a burn. What can I do to help heal it and could it spread infection? So far, I have put bacitracin on it, with no luck or signs of it getting better.

Thanks so much for your help,
Janet

 

[MWheelock]

What if your veiled refuses to eat fruits and veggies?
- There are many veiled that don't eat veggies at all. Some will gradually work into it, so having a skewer of fresh mustard or turnip greens or pesticide free hibiscus will sometimes entice. Not essential for the diet.
Is it okay to just feed my cham crickets and nothing else?

- I'm sure there are some keepers out there that do this out of necessity, though this is highly recommended against. Imagine in the wild the number and variety of bugs that the cham eats. Eat have different minerals and vitamins as well as diets themselves that allow for a balanced diet. I would not recommend less than 3 feeders. Ones fairly easy to keep on your own would be crickets, silk worms, superworm, roaches. You can now also get some deals over the internet where they regularly send a pack of small amounts of multiple species.

Is there one powder that contains all the nutrients for my cham to dust with or does he need a multivitamin and a separate vitamin A?What form do the multi vitamins and vitamin A come in (liquid?)
-In the past, it has been powder, but now I'm seeing liquid forms as well. I don't keep up with all of them. I use rep-cal, though for no other reason than I'm too lazy to keep up with many of them. I don't supplement with Vit A myself. I have found that with my own cham that I feed the crickets carrots. Though many lizards cannot convert betacartine to vit A, it is believed that crickets and some other insects can.

How cold is too cold for a chameleon at night when his light is off?
- Duration is really the key. For a veiled, I would probably not let it get below 65F on a consistent basis at night. As long as they can warm up really good during the day.

Is there one light that has everything my cham needs or do I need two separate types?
- I like the seperate types. Basking then UVB- I'm sure some others on this forum can break down why. Also, the article tied to this explains for the most part.


My cham has what seems to be MBD. What can I do to help him get well?
-I'd post some pictures on the heath forum. Though many chams have it, there are other items that look the same. Husbandry, good food, and good lighting will reverse a lot of the changes.

The end of my cham's tail is black. It looks like a burn. What can I do to help heal it and could it spread infection? So far, I have put bacitracin on it, with no luck or signs of it getting better.
- Probably needs to go to an exotic vet to make sure that infection is not causing ascending necrosis. Can it still move this part of its tail? May need systemic antibiotics, but maybe zylofen would be enough. Hard to tell without seeing and touching.

Good luck,
Matthew

 

[smiquami]

I accept with information:Food items- Variety is more readily available these days, but still does not simulate the variety in the wild. Additionally, some of the staple feeders used are not adequate in the calciumhosphorus ratios. Crickets, mealworms and superworms are actually the opposite ratio. Pheonix worms and butter worms are good in the ratio, but too high in fat.
This ratio in staple insects may be overcome by appropriate gut loading with appropriate legumes and greens and various formulated feeds.
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[jojothefirst]

great thread. Alot really helped but there still seems like alot in which we basicly have to guess with, although the guess is very much educated.
I would be interested to know why people change there bulbs every 6 months? What evidence is there that they become less efficent after this time? Is it a case of people thinking better change it just incase?
I ask because you read alot of opinions which sometimes differ greatly from each other because they are based on there own experience. The opinions might well be right but you dont know which to belive.

 

[troyboy1900]

I noticed in your post that you said that there needs to be Phosphorus in their diet with a 2:1 ratio with the Calcium. But I just bought the same thing that you use to dust your crickets which is the RepCal without D3 and it contains no phosphorus...Flucker's makes a Calcium duster without D3 that contains a 2:1 formula, should I use that? or is the RepCal without D3 ok? along with the RepCal with D3 twice a week? I have a sub-adult Veiled chameleon which I have no idea how old he is, bought him at Petsmart and from what I understand, they gave him regular vet visits, so he should check out alright from when I bought him.

 

[sandrachameleon]

most commonly used insects are higher in phosphorous than calcium. you use the phos free calcium powder to correct for this. RepCal is a commonly used product. You dont likey need the d3 as much as twice a week with that brand.

 

[troyboy1900]

oh, ok, that definitely makes sense, was just tryin to make the connection between what he said and how much he supplements, thanks

 

[chamlover]

I'm very happy that someone bumped this thread. Great great reading. I'm even copying it and bringing it to my vet. 1 question. Has anyone ever had a cham, or other reptile, with very bad mbd when it was young, and had it improve significantly after corrections were made? I just rescued a juvie beardie with Mbd so bad he has lost the use of his back legs. Everyone is telling me there is no hope for gaining the reuse of his legs. But i've had him only a month and 2 days ago i saw him using one of his back legs. Dr. Wheelock i could really use your advice here. My vet says there is no hope and i should probably put him down. He is only 3-4 mos old and very small for his age. Although his previous owner thought she was doing everything right, the one big no no i saw was way too many dragons in the same enclosure, mind you it was a good sized one, but there were too many in there and too many different sizes. My guess is he never got to bask in the really good spot which left him the way he is. Any magical cure i don't know about? Can he regain some of the use of his legs? Or will he continue to suffer? I have to admit though he drags himself around his enclosure like there is no tomorrow to catch his dinner. He's got enthusiasm, determination, and stamina. But is it enough?

Great thread.

 

[trd1215]

Great information MWheelock....very helpful information and very much needed for these very unique animals...

Defenitely learned something great from this thread.

 

[JoJoIamyourFather]

Thank you for bumping.
It's always good to have a review/refresher course of this info, and there are a lot of new members who might not have discovered this.

-Brad

I am a new member and I have found this information extremely informative.. I appreciate everyone taking time to post their dusting schedules and not only participating in this thread but also throughout the entire Forum.. This is the best site dedicated to Chams I have come across and everyone I have had the pleasure of talking with has been very nice, outgoing and informative.. so thank you!

 

[Chameron]

This is amazing...