Supplementation/MBD 1

[getwitit]

Food items- Variety is more readily available these days, but still does not simulate the variety in the wild. Additionally, some of the staple feeders used are not adequate in the calciumhosphorus ratios. (Remember should be 2:1). Crickets, mealworms and superworms are actually the opposite ratio. Pheonix worms and butter worms are good in the ratio, but too high in fat.
This ratio in staple insects may be overcome by appropriate gut loading with appropriate legumes and greens and various formulated feeds. (Certain diets high in calcium has caused gut impaction in crickets.)

I wanted to ask since sandrachameleon just said the opposite, i quote:

most commonly used insects are higher in phosphorous than calcium. you use the phos free calcium powder to correct for this.

I understand that your gut load techniques increase phosphorus but what is the truth about the normal content in a cricket? I would like to be dusting my insects more often by I've been afraid of providing such supplements when phosphorus and others could be lacking..I do not use anything like the multi-vit rep-cal..something i have been meaning to research and make a choice on getting..also what the heck is phos from the chicken feed or something?

 

[kinyonga]

chamlover...once the bones have been brought back to good health (once they are solid and strong again) I would think he should be able to have the strength to walk again. Any bones that are deformed or broken will likely remain that way though.

The quickest way to correct the calcium problem is for a vet to give it shots of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough that it can be given a shot of calcitonin which draws the calcium rapidly back into the bones.

Can you post a picture of him please?

 

[chamlover]

Hi Kinyonga,

I'm going to get a pic of him now. I'll get it asap. If there is anyhope of him using his back legs at all i would really like to give it the old college try. I'm just afraid as he gets bigger he'll end up worse. My husband is making him a wheelboard so he doesn't have to drag himself around and possibly hurt himself even more. I've been giving him daily oral calcium for the last 2 weeks. I've been working with another breeder of beardies who has more exp with mbd than i do. At this point, i'm torn between what to do. I know this isn't the beardie site, but i do realize that we all love reptiles here, no matter what kind they are. Also, what are the possiblities that his problems are more genetic? Something that was brought to my attention because of the fast onset of the disease and the extent considering his age. He was purchased from a big, well known breeder, that most breeders already know not to buy from. I actually think he is the product of a trans mated with another trans. 2 of the dragons we rescued from her were trans adn both had problems. Although the females problems were resolved with 3 office visits to the vets.

 

[benthirty2]

WER carrots

Sources- I highly encourage everyone to do their own research. This is merely a summary of facts that can be found through many sources. I paraphrased many of these sections from:
Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Mader
North American Veterinary Conference Procedings 2007
Speakers- Dr. Mader
Dr. Mark Mitchell- LSU
Dr. Fleming- Disney’s Animal Programs
Dr Pare- Toronto Zoo
My personal notes from veterinary school
Endocronology and Reproduction- Feldman and Nelson 3rd edition

I know that someone will ask what I am doing for my chams. So here it is. I have no real reason for this protocol other than it is similar to that used by some successful cham breeders.

I change my UVB lighting every 6 months. (probably unnecessary)
Gut-load with WER carrots, romaine, and orange
Juviniles Calcium w/o D3 twice a week
Multivitamin twice a week
Adults- Calcium w/o D3 once a week
Multivitamin once a month
Females (gravid) –Calcium w/o D3 twice a week
Multivitamin once to twice a week

I WOULD LOVE ANY AND ALL FEEDBACK.

Can you tell me what WER carrots are because i dont have a clue. Thank you!

 

[MWheelock]

Sorry for the confusion... There should have been a comma between the two words-- WER, and carrots.

WER was a formulated dry cricket food back then. (Don't know if they are still selling.) Presently, I use Flucker's dry cricket food, or Chicken laying dry feed (for chickens that lay eggs.) I like these over bran or oatmeal due to the Vitamin A in both foods.

Sorry about the confusion

Matthew Wheelock

 

[sandrachameleon]

Chicken laying dry feed (for chickens that lay eggs.) I like these over bran or oatmeal due to the Vitamin A in both foods.

I actually avoid the chicken feed due to the Vitamin A and animal source fats and proteins, but that aside...
Have you any thoughts or concerns about the anitbiotics and growth hormones in the chicken feed? They all seem to contain some of these nasty things. Maybe I just havent looked hard enough

 

[hallenhe]

I'd like to hear from anybody else using chicken feed to gutload, as my veterinarian has been very enthusiastic about it lately, but I have also heard concerns like sandrachameleon's expressed. My vet recommends it in particular for growing juvies.

 

[Elizadolots]

I found this site: http://www.modestomilling.com/poultry.html

Certified Organic Poultry Feed

Modesto Milling provides different types of poultry feeds to meet different lifecycle requirements. Certified organic herbs are used in all our poultry formulas. Many of our products take advantage of the powerful properties of garlic, anise oil, horseradish, and juniper berry.

I got there off this site: http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/livestock_feed/

Which lets you find a producer of organic livestock feed near you.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I understand that your gut load techniques increase phosphorus

Do you mean me? My gutload techniques are aimed at high calcium, NOT increasing phosphorous. Many Commonly used feeders (such as crickets) are naturally higher in Phos than calcium, which is not what you want. You gutload and dust to correct this imbalance and to provide nutrients to the chameleon.

 

[MWheelock]

If I were to chose one, I'd probably get the flukers dry feed. Formulated specifically for crickets meant to give as feeders to lizards. My guess is that they are playing it safe to the point of not having excess of any particular nutrients, and not having any growth hormones. I'd supplement with various veggies, so there is a nutritional mix. If I was a breeder I would be more likely to worry about issues affecting clutches for future generations (that may or may not happen) due to these hormones.... but I don't breed chams. Those that have done this don't seem to have any ill effects that I know of.

How much do the hormones hurt? There is no research that I have found either way. And research done on chickens assumes that lizards and chickens respond the same way.... and in some ways they do and some they don't.

As a veterinarian, I see more chams and reptiles with hypovitiminosis, so feeding the crickets a laying feed that has more vitamin A is more appealing to me and had worked as an adjunct to get these levels to where I'd like them to be. Unless this is the case though, I don't push chicken laying feed over the others unless there is a convenience issue. I also make sure the crickets are eating other veggies on top of the dry feed. I also believe in giving crickets carrots so they can convert beta cartene (sp?) to Vitamin A.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think I'll stick with making my gutloads for now, though there may be times when the expedience of buying something might seem worthwhile.
I use a fair bit of carrot and dandelion leaves as good sources of beta carotene. I presume one of the many bugs I use is able to convert it, if not the chameleons themselves. Luckily, despite never providing preformed vitamin A, I've never encountered hypovitiminosis.

 

[BocaJan]

This is an excellent posting by Dr. Wheelock. Hopefully we can bump it every once in awhile since so many people ask about MBD. Of course one can always do a search, but unfortunately our newbies don't because of the unfamiliarity with forums.

 

[aduncan45]

This is such an informative posting. It really should stay in circulation. If anyone has any new information please post it, as a new cham mommy I would love to read it.

 

[JenniferAlicia]

Can someone recommend a multi-vitamin like brand name? I plan on ordering the best for my two month old little girl veiled.

Please the more advice the better!

 

[sandrachameleon]

Can someone recommend a multi-vitamin like brand name? I plan on ordering the best for my two month old little girl veiled. Please the more advice the better!

Gutloading is more important that the vitamin supplement. I use Rep-Cal Herptivite. But there are several popular brands. Check out this blog entry for a list of some of them:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

 

[JenniferAlicia]

Gutloading is more important that the vitamin supplement. I use Rep-Cal Herptivite. But there are several popular brands. Check out this blog entry for a list of some of them:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

The crickets are gutloaded, they have a special food and veggies.

 

[benthirty2]

whats a good name multivitamin for veiled chameleons

well first of all I know from experience that females are alot harder to care for because of them laying eggs with being sexed or not, so during these times they use up a bunch more calcium and other minerals. If this is your first Veiled chameleon then you more than likely should get a boy so you can grasp what it takes to own one of these wonderful creatures. Since we keep them in captivity their conditions are usually optimal and a females could easily get bound up with as many 30 eggs or better and can die it you dont notice that they`re loaded up with eggs and nowhere to bury them. Anyway that was my mistake when starting out with my first chameleon. The best multivitamin is called Herptivite by Rep-Cal. Its in a blue can. Dont even bother looking for it at your commercial pet store, but try your local "mom and pop" stores or the "net". Try petmountain, but sometimes when you are searching, you can`t find it for some reason. So I suggest calling them if you dont have any luck. Herpnutrition is another one so good luck and most of all enjoy!!

 

[reptileman1]

New Member

As both a long time lizard breeder and wildlife biologist I found that discussion extremely informative. Have you ever corresponded with Jon Coote on this subject?

 

[MWheelock]

I can't say that I am familiar with him, though I am not a nutritionist. This article was a culmination of discussions and confusions of how things work and many issues that I see with chameleons coming to my practice.

Glad you still found it informative.

Matthew

 

[Dawniegirl]

Thanks!!! I've added your post to my computer bookmarks so I can refer back to it easily. Very informative