Supplementation/MBD 1

#62
your welcome and as for the vit all yeah i just got some in the mail and have been using it for a week now along with miner all, eye drops, and appitite stimulant which is just liquid vit. B12
 
#63
correct supplements

Hi,

Thank you firstly for all that info but I need to ask a few questions:

My veiled is 8 months old (so the pet shop said) I would just like to know approx. what amounts of calcium D3 and without D3 should I give? Am I correct to say that he is still a juvenile and should be giving him calcium everyday and Calcium D3 twice a week. The multivitamin to be given twice a month. My boy is indoors and he sits quite a lot under the UVB light when not under his heated light. Reading all the info regarding MBD and other concerns I would hate to be the one responsible for any of those diseases. I have had him for 3 days now and so far he is eating crix, meal and super worms (that to I am still figuring out how much to give him.) The spinach, carrot and apples he has stayed away from but I don't think he has ever been given them. I kind of took pity and rescued him cause the cage he was in was terrible and it had been like that for 2 months. I have plenty of flap necked chams in my garden but this guy is "special" and I am working on getting him in the garden when I am able to get a safe secure set up, so any help regarding making his life a lot healthier and happier now would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
#64
See this thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/calcium-vitamins-59416/

I do the same for hatchlings that I do for adults....calcium at most feedings, D3 twice a month, vitamins twice a month.

As I explained, the D3 and vitamins are to ensure that they get some without overdoing it and leaving them to get the rest of the D3 from the exposure to the UVB and from the gutloaded insects. Hatchlings will be getting calcium more often since they get fed more often.
 
#65
I agree with Kinyonga. Though, for new keepers, I usually suggest that they give calcium with D3 once to twice a week for the first 6 months, since they haven't figured out how to supplement well enough to get what they need in. This is due to the problem of overfeeding early on and the bones have a hard time keeping up with the growth.

It also really depends on how you are keeping your chameleons. If your chams are getting more than 45minutes two to three times a week of direct sunlight-being outside (no glass or plastic filtering out the uvb) I might even be giving less D3.

I like the idea of calcium (no D3) often, though if your feeders are gut loading with good calcium rich veggies, this might also not be as necessary.

UVB lights are getting better and better, though unless you have a spectrometer ($$$), you don't know consistently how much uvb you are actually getting, so supplementing with D3 is what we do.

Oh, and I'd limit the spinach and use mustard greens or dandelion greens, or turnip greens, or even romaine. Calcium phos ratio is a little off in the dark greens. Okay as a treat, but not my favorite for regular diet.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
#66
Good to see you are still around Dr. Wheelock!!

Dr. Wheelock says..."Though, for new keepers, I usually suggest that they give calcium with D3 once to twice a week for the first 6 months, since they haven't figured out how to supplement well enough to get what they need in. This is due to the problem of overfeeding early on and the bones have a hard time keeping up with the growth."...very glad you said this! I should have been mentioning it because "newbies" often do take a bit of time to get the supplementing/gutloading/feeding figured out!
 
#67
Oh, and I'd limit the spinach and use mustard greens or dandelion greens, or turnip greens, or even romaine. Calcium phos ratio is a little off in the dark greens. Okay as a treat, but not my favorite for regular diet.
The calcium to phosphorous ration in dandelion greens is actually quite good. Higher in calcium than phosphorous, and not overly high in oxalic acid content. In one cup of chopped leaves: Calcium, Ca 103 mg; Phosphorus, P 36 mg
 
#68
If you are dusting your insects with calcium each feeding like most here do, that should change the c : ph ratio enough that using occasional greens low in calcium or high in oxalic content as part of a varied diet shouldn't be a problem and should indeed be beneficial.

Total nutrition is more important than looking at each item as if it were the total diet. If you do that, you run out of variety pretty quickly and miss out on some of the benefits of these greens.

Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
#69
I think you misread, I said to limit spinach, BUT to use the others. (mustard, turnip, romaine are not considered dark greens...)
I did mispeak though on why not the dark greens like spinach. This is due to the high oxalate content.

Varied diet is indeed the best, though items like, spinach, kale, cabbage, alfalfa, bokchoy tops should not be staples in the diet

Matthew
 
#72
What do you mean by so many multivitamins?
It should be for pretty much their whole life (if I'm not mistaken)
Calcium WITHOUT D3 at almost every, if not every feeding
Calcium WITH D3 twice a month
Multivitamin twice a month
 
#73
Ok so im just getting into the chameleon game and have a 5-6 month old veiled cham. when i bought him the people at petsmart said that i should dust his crickets every day. ive been reading this thread and it doesn't seem to be the case. i want him to be healthy and he doesn't appear to have any symptoms of MBD so im not worried about that. I mix his calcium and his multivitamins in a small container and dust his food with that every day. if this is bad, someone please tell me so i don't do any damage to him. ive done my research on how easy it is for them to get MBD so i think it kinda scared me into over dusting his food. thanks. :confused:
 
#74
Ok so im just getting into the chameleon game and have a 5-6 month old veiled cham. when i bought him the people at petsmart said that i should dust his crickets every day. ive been reading this thread and it doesn't seem to be the case. i want him to be healthy and he doesn't appear to have any symptoms of MBD so im not worried about that. I mix his calcium and his multivitamins in a small container and dust his food with that every day. if this is bad, someone please tell me so i don't do any damage to him. ive done my research on how easy it is for them to get MBD so i think it kinda scared me into over dusting his food. thanks. :confused:
You do not need to mix the calcium and vitamin supplements.
Most people use calcium, plain calcium, far more often than anything else. How often you use various mineral and vitamin supplements depends a great deal on the brand of supplements, the type and gendre of chameleon, whether or not it is kep outside, what type of feeder insects you use, what you feed those feeders,.... Read this blog entry, and you'll get the information you need:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
 
#75
Excellent compendium on reptile nutrition in general.

1. I've heard that mustard greens have an ideal calcium:phosphorus ratio. It's also usually available in most grocery store produce sections. My tortoise eats this regularly and is doing very well. (It's also high in fiber, so it digests easily in herbivores and feeder insects.)

2. Spinach and oxylic acid: it's an old and unsettled debate unless you can cite otherwise. I've read that the spinach-and-oxylic-acid conflict is based on human studies but that there are very few reliable studies, if any, on effects in reptiles and virtually none are avialable on specific species, especially less common ones. I mention this because spinach is a valuable source of many vitamins, minerals and micronutrients virtually unavailable elsewhere.

3. I've noticed that even chameleon breeders (some mentioned in these postings) sell cages/habitats that are made of what are basically screen windows. When used with UVB (high-end ultraviolet) lamps, the fine mesh reflects a lot of the rays, i.e., the rays never even enter the cage. Even large-mesh cage wire reflects back a significant amount of these UVB rays, outdoors included, so this is a consideration when making sure your lizard is getting sufficient exposure. Also, don't place the lamp in front of leaves or greenery because you'll be blocking even more rays. [Note: You can buy a meter from ZooMed to measure the strength of the rays, which also is great for knowing when to replace a UVB bulb, but the meter is a bit pricey, around $235, that last time I checked.
 
#76
D3??? How much

I use a power sun 100w and my cage is 48" tall. Melvin is maybe 8 months old and he spends as much time on hunting all over the cage as he does up close basking. I have been dusting crickets for him with calcium and d3--- 3 times a week and repti-vit once a week. I guess I have been giving him to much. What is wir carrot?
 
#77
Suppliments.

I have read so many variations that no one knows for sure. To many variables, sun exposure, age, weight, diet ect Using common sense, I would think that every animal is different(just like humans) and some are low and some are high in one thing or another. Like a human, the only way to find out is with blood work, and request your vit levels. If I bring my panther to the vet will he do a blood test and check all his levels? If so you could do this annually and find out if your doing it right/wrong?
 
#78
I am not a Dr and new to reptiles. I have been using the all in one zoo med powersun 100w (uva,uvb,heat). I have two Bearded dragons and one Cham and they all seem to be doing just fine. Apparently I have been using to much d3. I am glad its only been a few weeks.
 

Kerbie

New Member
#80
D3 supplementation for a MBD veiled

I rescued a ~6 month old veiled about 2 weeks ago when his owners were going to put him down for his severe MBD. Here is the link to that thread...

https://www.chameleonforums.com/rescue-6-month-old-veiled-mbd-need-advice-84244/#post790669

I was looking at some of the repashy supplements online and trying to decide which one would be best and saw that they have a calcium supplement SuperCal line with varying levels of D3. The Highest level says that it is for "reptiles in calcium crisis."

http://www.pangeareptile.com/store/supercal.html

I was hoping to get your opinion on if chams with MBD should be getting more or the same amount of vit D3 than those without. Also, is there anything else that should be given in higher or lower concentrations while being treated for MBD?

Currently he is on calcium glubionate syrup BID and he is getting phoenix worms, silkworms and hornworms dusted with calcium only powder. I have exoterra electrolyte and vitamin D3 liquid supplement that the previous owner gave me but I have not been using it. Should I? He will be getting calcionate injections starting this week.

He has two 5.0 UVB blubs and one basking bulb and I had been putting him outside in the sun for the first week but it is already too hot here in Austin to keep him outside for very long so he is spending most of his time inside now.

Is there anything else I can be doing to help this little guy? I would really appreciate any advice you have to offer. Thanks!
 
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