Pure Breed vs. Morph

KTown333

New Member
I have had some breeding projects on the brain and I wanted to get your guys opinions and feelings on some topics. These are kinda just philosophical questions to see what people value when it comes to chameleons. Panthers to be more specific.

1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks?

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.


Thank you guys :D I am just curious about how people feel about the topic.
 

Stanly

New Member
1) I think both are cool

2) I think it lowers the value, if for no other reason than supply and demand.

3) I've only bought 2 so far but yeah the sire did influence my choice.

4) I think good record keeping is needed, I'd say there is a place for both.
 

eisentrauti

Avid Member
I have had some breeding projects on the brain and I wanted to get your guys opinions and feelings on some topics. These are kinda just philosophical questions to see what people value when it comes to chameleons. Panthers to be more specific.

1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks?

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.
1.always a pure locality if possible. But I'm realist enough to know that Africans will never care if they put a Nosy Be female in a Nosy Faly shippment...
2.depends always on the color. People want colors. Thats it
3.I would never buy a chameleon because of the genotype of the "sire" or if it's a famous line from so called "breeders" who have no idea about genetics
4.because you never know when the imports stop

And btw: If you want to earn money with reptiles, go to NZ and catch some Naultinus or "breed" snakes. Chameleons are to problematic and only a good choice if you can keep them most of the year outdoors
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Do a search for old threads on this topic. There are a lot of them and some are quite long. I think all of them adress all your questions. But my two cents:

1. I prefer pure but don't mind crosses.
2. Depends on what you're buying for. If it's for color then a cross may be valued higher by some. But if it's for preserving locales and any breeding projects then pures are higher valued.
3. No, I didn't see the sire of any of my chams. But I found out after purchase that my panther is the grandson of Isairy-mifidy so I thought it was cool, but obviously it didn't influence my decision.
4. We may not be able to import chams forever as their habitat disappears and there are other threats that threaten their natural existence in Madagascar. Importation may get more difficult anyway if we get more invasive species (one of them already being chameleons in some areas). Once that happens we will only have our captive bloodlines to draw from and if they're all mixed and muddled we're not going to have locales anymore. Like in most of the middle east, there are brown dogs....that's it. Pretty much all their dogs are brown and fluffly and medium sized, you don't really see different breeds. I don't want that to happen with our gorgeous chams. And the more crossbred females there are the higher the chances of that happening since you can't tell the lineage of females anyway.

From a breeding perspective be aware that only a portion of your crosses are going to have great coloration, not all of them. And you can't control how many so what if you end up with 3 colorful males and a few muddled ones and a ton of females. No one is going to want your crossed females because people don't usually want females unless they're breeding (it's just the truth) and low color males aren't going to sell well. So you need to have a plan for potentially a large portion of your clutch not having anywhere to go. It's not going to be a very successful breeding project if you end up keeping them all. And if you just give them away then you have a lot of crossed females ending up probably perpetuating their genes later because people will pass them on to someone else who won't know or won't care that they're crossed.

In my opinion, if you're going to breed then you may as well keep it pure because of the potential long term effects. And if you're looking at it from a financial standpoint you won't make money with crosses because of the complications I mentioned, plus breeding in general is not profitable on a small scale from what I've heard.

I have mutt dogs myself, and I don't mind crossed chams if that's what people want. I don't think they're "inferior", I just don't think it's in the best interest of the species in the future.
 

imcurt

Avid Member
I can see breeding for color& temperment! we have a goldendoodle that is the best dog I have ever had. There are some awesome colored morphs out there too. That being said what ever your breeding it only fair to better the breed. I prefer to stick to pure lines for breeding myself.If I bought a morph it would not be involved in any breedinh project.
 

Texas Ranger

Avid Member
I totally agree with ferret. That is the best answer so far.

1) Pure blood only

2) Lowers the value in my eyes

3) Seeing the sire is nice. But that is only has small % of my decision making

4) One day the imports will stop. Then what. These animals are this way on there own. Without human help they are this amazing. Lets keep that strong bloodline clean.

Still what Farret said takes the prize.
 

FurciferLord

New Member
J
I have had some breeding projects on the brain and I wanted to get your guys opinions and feelings on some topics. These are kinda just philosophical questions to see what people value when it comes to chameleons. Panthers to be more specific.

1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks?

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.


Thank you guys :D I am just curious about how people feel about the topic.
1. A pure locale
2. The value is greatly decreased on a morph for me
3. I don't even care what the sire looks like since it doesn't really matter all chameleons turn out different and rarely look exactly like the sire
4. I don't think it it important at all. In fact I wish people would stop breeding them unless the breeder is true to the lineage
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
3. I don't even care what the sire looks like since it doesn't really matter all chameleons turn out different and rarely look exactly like the sire
4. I don't think it it important at all. In fact I wish people would stop breeding them unless the breeder is true to the lineage[/QUOTE]

Only breed pure locales for staters whenever possible. We dont need anymore mixes floating around and mucking up the captive gene pool. Its bad enuff when we get females that are labeled incorrectly from the exporters.

3.How do you determine what your cham is going to look like then? Looking at the sire and at the dames sire are the best ways to determine what the future offspring will look like. Its not just a matter of looking at the sire. its the combo of the dames sire and the sire and the sires daddy.

4. If you dont think its important to only breed pure lines. Then the next part of your statement makes absolutely no sense.
 

sandrachameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed? I like, and have, both. But Most people on this forum prefer pure local.

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value? Same value as a pet, but crosses have a much lower retail value.

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks? no.

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.
I think both options can exist without any conflict.

Since you say you are interested in peoples opnions on the topic, you may find these previous threads of interest:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/panther-hybrids-329/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross...panthers-31504
https://www.chameleonforums.com/crossbreeding-25079/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-n...ambilobe-7124/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-o...08/#post378125
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-40955
https://www.chameleonforums.com/breed...odlines-27185/
 

antithesis123

New Member
1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

Pure Breed - However 80 percent of the dog breeds occured in the last 250 yrs! Chameleon breed by locale is very short sighted in some cases. Even experts cannot say for certain the origin of certain chameleon breeds from the way they look if locales are close. Andapa and Sambava are about 50 miles apart.

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

Definitely lower for a female panther. Awesome male crosses from people who take a different responsible approach to breeding crosses- who also have a reputation- No

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks? No

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales?

I think most locals should be kept clean and I respect those who are serious about it. I also think the future of cross bred panthers will make newer more awesome chameleons than we have ever seen- new breeds!

I also wish there was a chameleon registry to trace the picture lineage of you chams ancestry.. how cool would that be!
 

Chuck G

Avid Member
This topic has certainly been beat to death before but I have never found a good enough reason to purposely mix locales. I have plenty of friends/breeders that do and to each his own but like I said,I have never heard a good reason for doing this. I don't mean, I wanted to see what would happen, I want a chameleon named after me stuff. A GOOD REASON.
 

Olimpia

Biologist & Ecologist
Here's my personal opinion on the matter.
1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed? I have two of each and personally like my two crosses the most. Now, this is my personal opinion, but I think that my ambilobe looks like any 3000 ambilobes on this forum. There's nothing too special about him. Where as my crosses are really different, even from their brothers. There's more diversity in them, I think. I still haven't seen a panther that I thought was ugly, by any means, but I like and would prefer either. It really depends on how much I like that specific individual.

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value? Their monetary value, sure. Like with any animal, crosses aren't sold for as much. But as pets they're still as fantastic as a pure panther, and I don't think any less of my crosses. The big problem are the females, who look all the same. So keeping track of them is the one huuuge problem with cross breeding locales. How do you sell them and how do you keep track of them?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks? In my case, yes, basically. When I wanted to get a Nosy be, for example (because my first panther was a gift) I didn't want jsut the first Nosy be I could get - I found a sire I loved and got one of his sons. Same thing with my next two, I found a sire I loved and got their sons, even if they were crosses and could have much more variation.

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important. I don't see why you can't have both. Just like you can have labradoodles, you can have pure poodles and pure labs, having one doesn't mean you can't have the other. Sure, mislabeled panthers can muddy up the gene pools but there will always be reputable breeders that can guarantee you what you're buying. Pure locales are beautiful and should be preserved (although we're selectively breeding for the most extreme examples of each locale), but you can still have both.

___

Chuck, I don't think there is a good reason. It's not like we're breeding them selectively for a purpose/function like dogs, or to domesticate them like livestock, in captivity we just breed them for the hell of it. None of the animals we breed right now are ever going to end up re-populating the wild, so we breed them for our own personal enjoyment. So I think that's the best reason anyone can come up with because it's true - these guys are in cages in our livingrooms for kicks and giggles, for our personal enjoyment. So people are going to experiment with them if they can. Whether that's right or wrong is something else entirely, but it's human nature. We mess around with anything we can get our hands on.
 

antithesis123

New Member
I think a very good reason is to make new breeds like dogs- Why not? Not for skills like some dog breeds but for color, size and style. Local breeds became the way they were over time because of breeding, who says you can't do better? .. Not me- but some of the serious cross breeders out there. Who says you can't make your own breed of chameleon? there's no law against chameleon eugenics! It will happen, chameleons are too cool!
 

KTown333

New Member
Thank you guys for your responses. I am enjoying reading through them all. There are some really interesting answers. Dont worry any breeding project I do would be 2-3 years down the road because I dont even own a chameleon yet : ( I cant wait when July comes and I can get one in my new house. The suspense has been killing me! I am starting to get my enclosure built now. I am learning so much from you all and I thank you. I know my cham will be well taken care of :D
 

Ace

Avid Member
well in my opinion i think we have enough people that are willing to contirbute pure breeds and enough to do hybrids, sorta balances things out

the only real problem would be if imports do stop for any reason

the whole keep things pure is important like preserving what nature made and for the future generations to see the same locales of panthers as we see today:)

but as far as hybrids, i consider them unique and not to say they are better or worse, they are just different, plain and simple:)

i just do not like the extremes of any issue "a panther is panther" or "crosses are mutts and undesirable"

these extremes from both sides is just pointless

this topic has been said and done for coutless times, yet it still sparks everyone to say something:p

all in all, because of the people we have, we can have both pures and crosses

but thats just me
 

Chuck G

Avid Member
I think a very good reason is to make new breeds like dogs- Why not? Not for skills like some dog breeds but for color, size and style. Local breeds became the way they were over time because of breeding, who says you can't do better? .. Not me- but some of the serious cross breeders out there. Who says you can't make your own breed of chameleon? there's no law against chameleon eugenics! It will happen, chameleons are too cool!
It all makes sense now. I didn't think someone could do it. Thank you sir.
 

Kenidi

New Member
I have had some breeding projects on the brain and I wanted to get your guys opinions and feelings on some topics. These are kinda just philosophical questions to see what people value when it comes to chameleons. Panthers to be more specific.

1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks?

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.


Thank you guys :D I am just curious about how people feel about the topic.

As someone who is new to the cham world, I have a slightly different opinion than most I think.

1. I am very impressed by some of the crosses out there, and would love to have one, but pures are nice also. I have no desire to breed so a cross would be awesome, but I know that if I were to want to breed ever, I would stick with pure.

2. To me, a cross raises the value, because it is more of a "designer" animal, but I think price is very driven by demand. There seem to be a lot of owners that like to breed also, so they would not pay as much for a cross. Also, the reason I think crosses are more valuable in my mind, is because they are not as readily available.

Also I think it is important to charge more for crosses than pures, to discourage misleading breeding by anyone you sell to. If a shady person can buy a mix for half the price of a pure, there would be nothing stopping them from buying crosses, and selling their offspring as pures.

3. If I buy a baby chameleon with virtually no color yet, The impressiveness of the sire is the most important factor to me, after health and sex.

4. I think It's important to not have a large number of crosses, because then it seems like only a matter of time before local distinction is completely lost, except in nature.
 

allencg101

Member
I have had some breeding projects on the brain and I wanted to get your guys opinions and feelings on some topics. These are kinda just philosophical questions to see what people value when it comes to chameleons. Panthers to be more specific.

1. What would you prefer? A pure breed locale OR a impressive cross breed?

2. Does having a cross breed in your opinion lower the value? Like a mutt dog. Or increase the value?

3. Do you only buy chameleons on how impressive the sire looks?

4. Why do you think it is important to keep pure breed locales? If you do think it is important.


Thank you guys :D I am just curious about how people feel about the topic.
1 I prefer pure but when my panther reaches age i've always wanted to see and going what produces a half blue bar ambanja and half nosey be.
2 might bring it down but now you see more and new pure breed dogs doing that for example the new breed colorado bulldogs. awesome dogs they are expensive and doing that somewhat crosses out what some might call bad genes that some dogs tend to have.
3 yes and no I only do that on panthers cause i like the color blue and green lol. any other chameleon hells no I love my fischer and veileds and oustalates and those don't get colorful at all the ousts i buy them cause i love them and i prefer big chams over little chams like your pgmy's and peacocks
4 some people are picky especially with panthers. others i could care less. my ambilobe pandora is going to be beautiful but i'm not going to breed her she is my pride and joy. my other chams i don't care i just love their style and personalities.
 

antithesis123

New Member
It all makes sense now. I didn't think someone could do it. Thank you sir.
Well, In all seriousness, If you create a new "breed" which is totally possible of all yellow and purple panthers that all turn blue when they fire up or smething different or special, then you exclusively own something pretty amazing that only you can sell for a while and chameleon owners will be all over it so long as you can justify yourself with a new name. Some people still wont like them.. until they see them for themselves and see them as special and exagerated versions of the very same reasons which attracted them to chameleons in the first place. IT's already being worked on- You know why? $$$
 
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