Why only certain cross breeds?
- Thread starter Ellron
- Start date
summoner12
Avid Member
Why are there only a couple of cross bred species? Such as Ambilobe X Nosy Be and Ambanja X Ambilobe. Are other cross breeds possible? I would love to see and Nosy Be X Ambanja, my two favorites... Just wondering
personally I don't like crossed panthers....
you can cross any panther with another panther.... but you can't cross a veiled and a panther (in case you didn't know that already).
fowlers
New Member
Why are there only a couple of cross bred species? Such as Ambilobe X Nosy Be and Ambanja X Ambilobe. Are other cross breeds possible? I would love to see and Nosy Be X Ambanja, my two favorites... Just wondering
they are the commonly cross bred panthers because they are always available. some people only buy a male panther, then a few months down the line they want a female to go with it but usually cant find the locale they are after.
rob
Clifford
New Member
There are crosses of all sorts of panthers, including the ones you like
Some crosses are more common than others for two reasons (imo)
1 - those crosses typically produce attractive offspring - people like the look of the results - same reason some "pure" breeds are more popular than others
2 - those types are most commonly available to start with (the parents I mean)
Some crosses are more common than others for two reasons (imo)
1 - those crosses typically produce attractive offspring - people like the look of the results - same reason some "pure" breeds are more popular than others
2 - those types are most commonly available to start with (the parents I mean)
ColorCham427
Avid Member
crossing panthers should be illegal!!!!!
pantherlover
New Member
ya im not particularly a fan. if anybody out there wants to, be sure to label them as what they are! do not try to pass them off as anything else. that should definately be illegal!
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Good luck selling cross bred females. I cant stand crosses personally.
Nixehface
New Member
crossing panthers should be illegal!!!!!
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I disagree!!My little cross is a gorgeous boy!!!
Texas Panther Man
New Member
Your boy may be gorgeous but what did that breeder do with all the little ladies that were produced in that clutch? I hope they werent "accidentally" sold as pure locales.
pantherlover
New Member
those would have to go dirt cheap to a petstore that would likely call them "TIGER PANTHERS" or something stupid like that. ya, gotta feel bad for those little girls. regardless, giving them some bogus name would be better than trying to pass them off as a specific locale. this no shot against people who own crosses & are a happy with their pet. its just when people get the basic husbandry down, many are propelled to try a breedig project & it isnt easy to sell off the females to good homes. also this isnt directed to established breeders who do this. people like our site sponsors practice proper ethics when it comes to this as far as i know. i think its a good thing to frown upon this for someone who is interested in breeding as a hobbyist like myself. so if its gonna be done at all, lets leave it to the pros!
Texas Panther Man
New Member
I dont care if your a so called pro or not, why do it? Pure locales are absolutly breathtaking. Why do we think we can make a better, more colorful panther than nature has already produced? I might get slammed for this by some but I think this practice opens up a lot of possiblitites for people getting animals that are misslabeled and misrepresented. It also does nothing to help cb populations remain pure.
pantherlover
New Member
ya, i couldnt agree with you more dude. regardless, its gonna be done whether you, i or a million others disagree with it or not. no reason anybody should come down on you for the last post because your right. it doesnt matter if your a reputable breeder or not, some of those girls & even boys down the line, will be given a false label & eventually water down the purity of whats availible. i think we should feel lucky to admire the pure loclales for the beautiful animals they are & not screw with nature. what i wonder is, when a breeder gets a shipment of wc, what would he or she do with those ones that are suspect natural crosses. im sure people get a couple of those in shipments. or maybe just to fill otu the order? do they send them back or sell them as unknown locale?
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
I see nothing wrong with crosses. I own one handsome nosybe x ambilobe male currently, have had lovely cross females in the past, and will soon have some adorable hybrid babies. I will also have some nice pure nosy be babies. I anticipate (and Ive enough experience to know I am right) no trouble selling any of the ones I do not keep.
I find it strange that people are so concerned about the cross females. Females look essentially the same, regardless of the local, cross or pure. They are all lovely peaches, tans, oranges, blacks, and pinks. People who enjoy the more active nature and the colours of panther females do not care about or need be concerned with the animals lineage.
Only those seeking a male with a particular predictable look need be concerned with "pure" lineage (not that anything you get captive in north america in the pet trade is really true to the originals in the wild).
You can never be certain what a cross male will look like. And while I've never seen an ugly chameleon, I've certainly seen some that are "flashier" than others. And some people would prefer to know essentially what the animal will colour up to look like, rather than enjoy the mistery and excitement of the different.
You all seem to (wrongly) assume that the only reason someone would buy a female is to be a breeder producing "pure" males. I assure you that this is not necessarily the case. Many people buy chameleons as solitary splendid pets. I have sold to such people. They make good owners. They care about their animal. They do not care about breeding them, any more than the average gold fish or cat owner is concerned with breeding.
Chameleon Females make equally interesting pets as do males. They have the same interesting mitten feet, the awesome tongue, changing colours (different from males but no less lovely), independant eye turrets, etc. They are more or less predictable in colouration - you know what she's going to look like within a certain range, regardless of lineage.
Furthermore, some people might be quite happy to have a cross female, to breed with a cross (or pure) male. There is no law against this, no reason not to, assuming one can care for them.
Those who want "pure" will buy from reputable breeders and pay top price for the privilege. Certainly my nose be babies, which come from a good lineage, will fetch more money per animal than the crosses.
Those who dont give a fart about "purity" will buy what they want, and will likely pay far less. There is nothing wrong with this. Yes, some crosses will end up in pet stores - but this should not strike fear into the hearts of purists, who would never buy an animal of unknown lineage from a pet store.
Let those who like crosses have their crosses, and keep your "pure" locals safely separated. Im sure those with crosses arent going to attact "purists" for their choices, and would thank you for the same consideration.
They are all Furcifer pardalis regardless of looks.
I find it strange that people are so concerned about the cross females. Females look essentially the same, regardless of the local, cross or pure. They are all lovely peaches, tans, oranges, blacks, and pinks. People who enjoy the more active nature and the colours of panther females do not care about or need be concerned with the animals lineage.
Only those seeking a male with a particular predictable look need be concerned with "pure" lineage (not that anything you get captive in north america in the pet trade is really true to the originals in the wild).
You can never be certain what a cross male will look like. And while I've never seen an ugly chameleon, I've certainly seen some that are "flashier" than others. And some people would prefer to know essentially what the animal will colour up to look like, rather than enjoy the mistery and excitement of the different.
You all seem to (wrongly) assume that the only reason someone would buy a female is to be a breeder producing "pure" males. I assure you that this is not necessarily the case. Many people buy chameleons as solitary splendid pets. I have sold to such people. They make good owners. They care about their animal. They do not care about breeding them, any more than the average gold fish or cat owner is concerned with breeding.
Chameleon Females make equally interesting pets as do males. They have the same interesting mitten feet, the awesome tongue, changing colours (different from males but no less lovely), independant eye turrets, etc. They are more or less predictable in colouration - you know what she's going to look like within a certain range, regardless of lineage.
Furthermore, some people might be quite happy to have a cross female, to breed with a cross (or pure) male. There is no law against this, no reason not to, assuming one can care for them.
Those who want "pure" will buy from reputable breeders and pay top price for the privilege. Certainly my nose be babies, which come from a good lineage, will fetch more money per animal than the crosses.
Those who dont give a fart about "purity" will buy what they want, and will likely pay far less. There is nothing wrong with this. Yes, some crosses will end up in pet stores - but this should not strike fear into the hearts of purists, who would never buy an animal of unknown lineage from a pet store.
Let those who like crosses have their crosses, and keep your "pure" locals safely separated. Im sure those with crosses arent going to attact "purists" for their choices, and would thank you for the same consideration.
They are all Furcifer pardalis regardless of looks.
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SpinyFranky
New Member
Sandra I mainly think the problem with female crosses is that people will try to pass them off a pure breds, and since as you said they will always have that "female coloration", its impossible to tell that its a mix and not pure. The only way to tell would be when a clutch is born, and if that female sold to a customer intending to breed, when then that was a very misleading sale.
Personally I believe no chameleon is ugly or unwanted, but I also believe in the purity of the local. Push for pure chameleons, but love all of them already breathing.
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
I have to agree completely with Sandra. I am in favor of crosses for the sake of discovery and curiosity. Where would we be if no one had decided to cross different dog breeds together and make gorgeous dogs like the rough collie or the irish setter. To continue the dog example, you have people who cross labs and poodles to create the new labradoodle, and you don't see anyone outraged that they're crossing two pure lines (except me, who thinks it's riddiculous paying top dollar for a cute mutt you can get at a shelter). You still have your labs and your poodles, but now you have the option of a really cute mix of the two. If dog breeds manage to stay pretty pure regardless of all the unplanned litters and such (within the evolution of the breed as time and breed standards vary through the decades), I don't think chameleons are going to suffer a different fate. You will always find your purists and always have alternatives. You still have dog breeds that have remained unchanged for hundreds or thousands of years.
Just my two cents.
Edit- As far as the females thing goes, the same exact situation could happen with any other locale, pure or otherwise. Anyone could take an Ambilobe female and sell her as a Nosy Mitsio for twice as much, for example. The risk is always there, if you ask me. And what do you do with dishonest breeders? You boycott them and ruin their reputation by spreading the truth, it's that easy. Dishonest people will quickly lose their market if word gets out that they're doing something like that. I just don't see that as a good enough reason to hate crosses. Not everyone wants to breed. I bet there are people who will get a lovely little female as a pet (and even better if it's a cheaper crossed female) and be just as happy. I know that if I had the space for more chameleons, that's something I would happily do.
Just my two cents.
Edit- As far as the females thing goes, the same exact situation could happen with any other locale, pure or otherwise. Anyone could take an Ambilobe female and sell her as a Nosy Mitsio for twice as much, for example. The risk is always there, if you ask me. And what do you do with dishonest breeders? You boycott them and ruin their reputation by spreading the truth, it's that easy. Dishonest people will quickly lose their market if word gets out that they're doing something like that. I just don't see that as a good enough reason to hate crosses. Not everyone wants to breed. I bet there are people who will get a lovely little female as a pet (and even better if it's a cheaper crossed female) and be just as happy. I know that if I had the space for more chameleons, that's something I would happily do.
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sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
really, Unless you go and collect apanther in the wild for yourself you have no idea what locale it is. Anything bought elsewhere is some deviation. Most of the "pure" animals in captivity are the result of breeding for a particular marketable colouring. And Sure, unethical people may indeed try to pass of a cross female as something she aint. But like I said, people who truly care about the lineage of a female are not going to buy from those people. They will buy from breeders with a long, trusted reputation. They will pay more for the expectation of a certain colouration.
Previous threads on a simlar topic that others may find interesting:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/panther-hybrids-329/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-panthers-31504/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/crossbreeding-25079/
Generally, there are more people who express a preference for pure animals. Never the less, Ellron I too think Nosy Be X Ambanja might produce some nice offspring. Not that there's anything wrong with Nosy Be x Nosy be or Ambanha x ambanja.
Seeco
Avid Member
Here's my opinion. I think isolating the locales is the way to go. Crossing locales is never gonna create anything better. The dog breeding example is a bad example -- The reason why dogs have interesting genes is because of man made isolation -- picking a specific trait and breeding only the most extreme expressions of that trait. Take color for example -- if a multi-generational family of dog breeders in Ireland were famous for the redness of their setters throughout hundreds of years, they would not even let a brownish setter near their property! It is not like a brown and red one would breed and make an amazing litter with red and brown stripes -- the babies would just be average, in-between colors, reddish-brown. Isolation is something nature has done for free in Madagascar with panther chams - nature has pointed these animals in a certain evolutionary direction and we should only continue to pursue that course in captive breeding.
That said, it's your cham, do whatever you want with it!
That said, it's your cham, do whatever you want with it!
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
But we aren't crossing a beautiful red setter with an ugly brown one, are we? We're crossing metaphorical red setters with an equally beautiful breed, lets say a gorgeous borzoi to make something as stunning as the rough collie, which was a mix of a stalkier scottish collie and borzoi back in the day. You can still get your pure bred labs and poodles, but you can also get a labradoodle and the world is no worse off because of it.
We are capable of taking two roads - continuing the purity of the locales AND crossing to make interesting new ones and not have the world collapse around us. People will still breed only pure locales (at the very least because they fetch more money) and others will do crosses out of curiosity. Doing this does not signify the end of the panther chameleon species as we know it, nor of its preservation.
I think the cause of the selection is hardly what the point is here.
We are capable of taking two roads - continuing the purity of the locales AND crossing to make interesting new ones and not have the world collapse around us. People will still breed only pure locales (at the very least because they fetch more money) and others will do crosses out of curiosity. Doing this does not signify the end of the panther chameleon species as we know it, nor of its preservation.
I think the cause of the selection is hardly what the point is here.
Seeco
Avid Member
Ah, I personally feel that labradoodles, puggles, and all those others are just mutts. Mankind has worked for CENTURIES to create most purebred dogs. When you cross these breeds you get a completely random roll of the dice. The offspring do not have consistently predictable characteristics -- they don't ever all turn out the way you want and even if you get a really good or cool one there is no promise his babies will be similar.
They are genetically very healthy though. No chance of inbreeding.
When you cross panther locales you will more often than not dilute the characteristics that make each unique. Maybe 1 in 20 will be totally freaking awesome but even then, having all the colors of the rainbow, they just are NOT COOL TO ME
What's cool is a totally blue Nosy Be or completely red Tamatave or Ankaramy. Just opinion here but why would you ever want to mess with that? Breeding chams is not free of cost both financially and ethically, and not a course to put your animals through whimsically. There's a reason why all societies with agriculture and animal husbandry have organizations like the ACK and 4-H. Breeding animals to have specific predictable traits, whether beautiful or functional, is one of humankind's greatest accomplishments and although it is not so serious, crossing panther locales is just trashing the headstart that God / nature has given us.
Peace out
They are genetically very healthy though. No chance of inbreeding.
When you cross panther locales you will more often than not dilute the characteristics that make each unique. Maybe 1 in 20 will be totally freaking awesome but even then, having all the colors of the rainbow, they just are NOT COOL TO ME
What's cool is a totally blue Nosy Be or completely red Tamatave or Ankaramy. Just opinion here but why would you ever want to mess with that? Breeding chams is not free of cost both financially and ethically, and not a course to put your animals through whimsically. There's a reason why all societies with agriculture and animal husbandry have organizations like the ACK and 4-H. Breeding animals to have specific predictable traits, whether beautiful or functional, is one of humankind's greatest accomplishments and although it is not so serious, crossing panther locales is just trashing the headstart that God / nature has given us.
Peace out
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