Prices

Actually I did read your post so stop assuming. Our Cleveland stores stocks Mellers Fishers Grace Oustlets are a few I can recall in the last few months and last were two terrible looking Jacksons week before christmas. Most likely all cheap imports, I have never seen a panther or veiled once not saying they dont stock them. Its called RMS Aquaculture call them if you like. Lots of Salty Critters :cool: Anyways sorry to stir up a mess. I just wanted to state I never see CB species so how are they going to sell compared to these cheap imports like hotcakes.

I really dont know how this got off topic to a discussion on pet stores and what they stock. But your local pet store wouldnt be stocking or selling rare species such as those listed if the imported prices were higher. They are getting those animals from exporters for pennies on the dollar. If the exporters and importers were to charge more per animal that pet shop wouldnt be buyin any. Unless, they were ordered specially for a customer at their request. That store wouldnt want to take a loss on an exp lizard that they have no real knowledge about. They'd stick to the corn snakes and the bearded dragons.
 
Yeah, in canada the only cb you can find are panthers, and u gotta get em when they come arounf, my question is who is buying all the WC, im sure if petshop put a huge sticker in the window saying WC, they would not sell any. I got guy in montreal who just received 100s chameleons from kenya. Its like walmart, , low prices every day man, its about profit in the end.
 
... and those here in Canada get even less. I would love to get a cbb cham, and I wouldn't be too picky about the species as long as I was able to meet the care and space requirements (ie not a veiled or panther). Anything I have ever gotten has been wc. I have never had surviving babies, and I have lost seemingly healthy adults too soon. Especially with pygmies (which I absolutely love), I sometimes get a few months out of one. I would pay whatever to get a cbb to support the breeder, and to know I'm getting a cham with a good start. Not some poor thing shipped thousands and thousands of miles in who knows what kind of conditions. At that, they are not cheap here anyways, but they are the only game in town :(

Call Drew at Cham Nation. He's a fabulous breeder with some amazing pardalis. He's also branching out in quads & jacksons i think. So you have options in Canada. Sandrachameleon on this forum is a small time hobbyist breeder also. You have to LOOK to find quality animals.
 
@Scott: Very good thread !

The problem you mention is one of the biggest in our hobby I think. Even calyptratus are often sold for higher prices than tavetanas or sternfeldis. The problem are the too high quotas for some species. My favourite example: Both, tavetana and sternfeldi could be breed in multiple generations without really big problems.
But just a pure idealist with completely no financial ulterior movies will breed them for several generations. Why ? Because all others will demotivated when they have to give the juveniles away for prices which doesnt even cover the costs for food, electricity etc. pp.
It's really frustrating if you care well for the juveniles and you have to give them even to people from whom you just can hope that they will care well, just because you dont find enough other interested people.
Last time I offered my hoehnelii on ten classified sites only round 5 people asked for them ! Just because they can buy WCs to the same price.
 
Well I guess this could be 1 positive thing about the market in South Africa.
It is the exact opposit here. We have such a small variety of exotics available that you could sell anything for a very high price...
Veileds go for around R400-R900 depending on age, size, sex and health.
Our only bloodline of panthers is becoming less common so if you are breeding them here you can get sell them for about R1200-R2000 depending on size, age, sex and health..
Jacksons of whatever type will make you R3500-R6000 no matter what.
You can even sell pygmys for around R2000.:p
 
It all has to do with demand, panthers and veileds are the most attractive of the breeds, all these other chameleons are usualy bought by people who already own a chameleon. Also, you cant sell a WC specimen too expesive cause 80% of them being sold will die within 2 years. Panthers and veileds are pretty much the only hardy chameleons on the market with a longer background of captive breeding. The only expensive chameleon on the general market is panthers, and they sell cause of the colors, i dont know of any animal besides birds that have such "real" colors.

The reptile biz is a dirty one, and not regulated has it should be. Most reptiles sold are indeed disposed of.

I would say try to keep on topic but,
And i dont mean to say that theres anything wrong with buying a WC, but nobody will pay a high price cause they know the risks involved. Oh and on another not, veileds are cheaper cause most of them come from the wild or crappy farms from third world countries.

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about:confused:

And tell this girl that a veiled or panther is more attractive.

Picture1138088.jpg
 
Ahahahahahaha! Dirty farm veileds. That's what I do for a living.

She is very beautiful! I doubt most people imagine ladies like that when they think of other chameleons (not veiled, panther, mellers, jacksons,etc.) I bet more than half of the people who will see your picture have never seen anything even remotely like her.

Edit: I can't remember what they are called but there are these super colorful leaping lizards that leap to eat swarms of bugs! Tigers are pretty dang orange. Baboons have bright face/noses. There are a lot of 'monkey' mammals that have very bright faces. Those Agama lizard things are colorful too.
 
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Call Drew at Cham Nation. He's a fabulous breeder with some amazing pardalis. He's also branching out in quads & jacksons i think. So you have options in Canada. Sandrachameleon on this forum is a small time hobbyist breeder also. You have to LOOK to find quality animals.

I'm not saying there aren't options, but I'm saying they are few and far between. If a person doesn't want a panther or a veiled, the options have already decreased drastically. If someone is in Ontario they have a better chance than someone "in the middle". No one wants to ship a cham 1300 miles when they can sell it closer to home. I think Sandra is in BC, and she won't ship this far. Just an example. Heck, it's not even easy getting wc here. At our local reptile shows we MAYBE get a couple of wc pygmies (which I always buy). This year there were a couple of baby veileds, but that's the first time I've seen them here. With pygmies going for ~$40 a piece, I would gladly pay $100 knowing they were cbb, healthy and young. JMO
 
I would say try to keep on topic but,


Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about:confused:

And tell this girl that a veiled or panther is more attractive.

Picture1138088.jpg

Haha, there was a thread out here on why so many people never come back!

Its not cause i am new to Chameleons that im a noob to reptiles and most veileds are imported! and by attractive, i mean towards the general public, has anyone can take care of them.
 
umm veileds are one of the most easy and accessible species to breed , at least here in the US that are cb bred. other than that


JAred, she is a B-E-A-U-T-IF-U-L:D

is she the same K.tenuis? or is this a similar but different species?
 
I have been only skimming this thread between plowing snow. Im sorry if somone has pointed this out already. Let me say I am not an importer, but I have purchased from a bunch. They have all told me stories about having to accept one species to get another.

These WC animals are so cheap because for the most part they aren't wanted by the importer. The exporters buy a quoata of animals that they can export. Then they purchase the animals to fill the quoata and offer them up for sale. For example lets say you want to buy 40 mellers, and the exporter has the ability to export 50. Hes not going to just sell you those when hes got 200 pygmies and 100 jacksons, paid for and in his facility, to sell also. He says I'll sell ya the 40 mellers if you take half the pygmies and jacksons. When you factor in that these animals are dirt cheap from the exporter and the total cost of doing an import, it becomes easier to accept these less desired animals. Now you got these home, and your 40 chams is now 190. All you wanted was the mellers to begin with, so you sell off the pygmies and jacksons for cost. It not just limited to that either. He may try selling you snakes, frogs, whatever.

Unfortunalely yes it is going to make it impossible to recoop costs on a breeding project for these less popular speices. We don't see $4 for a CB cham to be worth it. But we are importing for the most part form third world countries. You can bet a father in Tanzania wont think twice about selling a cham he found for $4. And the exporter wont think twice about selling a bunch of animals just to make a buck. It is far from perfect, lets face it import-export is a bussiness.
 
umm veileds are one of the most easy and accessible species to breed , at least here in the US that are cb bred. other than that


JAred, she is a B-E-A-U-T-IF-U-L:D

is she the same K.tenuis? or is this a similar but different species?


The market is packed with imported farm veileds

The reptile industry is EXTREMELY fragmented, its not what you think it is, just cause pet shop claims its CB, does not mean its CB, they dont even know what they are buying themselves! There are plenty of CB chams this is true, and for the people who take the time to look, its not a problem. Everyone seems to think I am crazy for saying most veiled chams are imports, but its the truth.
 
The market is packed with imported farm veileds

depends where you purchase, and WHO you purchase a chameleon from, im not saying there isnt, but i assume for veileds, there is as much cb bred veields as by chance any WC's in the market, and most veileds are sold as babies usually, which i find it hard believing them being WC's, but possibly CH,.
 
Try making that statement into reality though. Most people want the cheapest. Even though in most cases cheapest isnt always the best. Whether it be quality or fit. (when i say fit I mean it doesnt fit into the buyers needs as well as the more exp option.) Too many times people see that 50.00 wc and compare it to a 150.00 cb baby and they buy the wc to save a 100.00 . Not knowing or not caring at that moment of purchase that they may spend twice that on vet care to keep the guy/gal alive. Then it still may never fully acclimate to captive life.

I currently have one wc female she is my only wc chameleon i posses. At least to the best of my knowledge. She def has a diff personality than my other cb chams. If I were not a breeder I wouldnt purchase anything wc.
Theres really no need too, you can find cb offspring from most of the avail species if you look long enough. You dont need wc blood to keep a line going strong if you dont breed. So why be a cheapskate and take a risk on a wc import? You can roll the dice to save a buck, and end up if your not extreemely careful infecting your whole collection.

I hope we've help show some of the reasons not to buy that cheap wc cham when you've got the oppurtunity to buy cb. So next time you see that 300-400 cham for sale instead of condemning that breeder as a greedy bastard. Think about the 1 1/2 yrs of hard work and $$$ he/she invested in that clutch.

Times are changing in the past new chameleon keepers did not have the resources of the internet to Google and login to The Chameleons Forums and find out what they are getting themselves into when looking to buy their first chameleons. Props to the Chameleon Forums for changing that. This education/awareness is making buying a cheap/unhealthy wild caught animals less of an issue. As well, with the evolution of education from the journals of the CIN to the the Chameleon Forums buyers are going to have extra knowledge about breeders and what species these breeders are captive breeding. This internet market has given buyers the option to buy many kinds of chameleons from there homes and if searched long enough the option to buy captive bred animals instead of wild caughts and are no longer just relying on mostly wild caughts seen in local pet stores. With all that I say progress, even though far from perfect, is being made and to emphasize the importance to keep educating and promoting awareness for the chameleon keeper community.
 
I have been only skimming this thread between plowing snow. Im sorry if somone has pointed this out already. Let me say I am not an importer, but I have purchased from a bunch. They have all told me stories about having to accept one species to get another.

These WC animals are so cheap because for the most part they aren't wanted by the importer. The exporters buy a quoata of animals that they can export. Then they purchase the animals to fill the quoata and offer them up for sale. For example lets say you want to buy 40 mellers, and the exporter has the ability to export 50. Hes not going to just sell you those when hes got 200 pygmies and 100 jacksons, paid for and in his facility, to sell also. He says I'll sell ya the 40 mellers if you take half the pygmies and jacksons. When you factor in that these animals are dirt cheap from the exporter and the total cost of doing an import, it becomes easier to accept these less desired animals. Now you got these home, and your 40 chams is now 190. All you wanted was the mellers to begin with, so you sell off the pygmies and jacksons for cost. It not just limited to that either. He may try selling you snakes, frogs, whatever.

Unfortunalely yes it is going to make it impossible to recoop costs on a breeding project for these less popular speices. We don't see $4 for a CB cham to be worth it. But we are importing for the most part form third world countries. You can bet a father in Tanzania wont think twice about selling a cham he found for $4. And the exporter wont think twice about selling a bunch of animals just to make a buck. It is far from perfect, lets face it import-export is a bussiness.


Great point, Scott!!!

I had a chance to talk to a person who helped get or got the Arusha farm in Tanzania to start exporting to the states. You would not believe the prices he was telling me some of these F1 rarer species with quotas under 30 specimen cost. Whether he was bent out of shape and not telling the truth, I dont know. This was also quite a few years ago so the prices could have changed and is not from the person who imports them know, so take it with a grain of salt. 38$ for pairs of Kinyongia uthmoelleri, tenuis etc. and prices that you mentioned for species such as K. fisheri and tavetana. As you said, to get these F1 species one must also bring in a lot of other stuff they dont want. So if an importer would buy tavetana for 4$ a piece they are still making a buck selling them at 35$ while still able to push them out of their facility and keep/sell the animals they want. You are right, the import/export is all about the all mighty $. If this is true then do the math on a 40$ pair of animals that is sold for 650$. Quite a shame if you ask me when these other animals, just because they are not low quota F1s, are not taken as seriously and sold for dirt cheap. AGAIN! Take those prices with a grain of salt. The same guy also wanted a ton of Bradypodion from my first import but flaked out right when I made him commit/asked for his money.

Another thing to look at is the exporters are from third world countries fighting to make money to survive. If you get 4$ specimens you are still making money selling them at the dirt cheap prices that they are sold for. You cant quite blame the ones that are fighting to stay alive offering these chams for that price:eek:

Ace, that is a K. tenuis and I cant wait until she is back home:D

Johnny909, if the market was packed with farm raised exported veileds people in the US would be lining up like it was Black Friday. Until you can prove to me that you are seeing or know these animals claimed as CB are really from "crappy third world farms" then I am still claiming you dont know what you are talking about.
 
Silly Humans,

this is Quadzilla speaking, so listen up.
fist off, Im the most GORGOUS Chameleon on this forum. no one can deny.

4834973964_78230fe0c6_z.jpg


I'm a WC, T. Quad Quad. my owner got me 4 days after getting into the US.
you might say my stupid owner payed $150.00 plus shipping for me. yet with the vet bills being $125.00 and him getting lucky and having meds in the house already, my final cost was $275.00 plus the meds he used.

my stupid owner wised up after he realised that for $225 he can get a CB baby.

anyone silly enough to think of buying a WC animal will be cheap is asking for it. the amount of deaths from not taking a WC Chameleon to the vet can be high.
you get what you pay for.

that is all, silly humans.

Quadzilla
 
Duh, didn't you read my post? I'M a dirty farm veiled breeder! Obviously I'm the one who supplies the market with my dirty farm veiled babies! I have monopolized the dirty farm veiled baby industry!!!! ALMIGHTY KARA!

Geeze Jared! Get it right! :p
 
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