Prices

Texas Panther Man

New Member
There is one aspect of this hobby that is truly back asswards if you ask me. And that is the disparity in pricing of chameleons. In most cases with the exception being parsonni and a cpl of other species. You can buy rare species of chameleons cheaper than a commonly found and bred pardalis. The low prices of imports has negatively impacted this hobby. Because people who actively try to get a breeding project off the ground often find that they cant sell their cb offspring for enough $$$ to cover their outgoing costs associated with such an endeavor.
There are several less popular and rare species I have been drawn too over the yrs and would have liked to start a project with. Unfortunately, as a small business owner I tend too look at the bottom line as far as my economic loss i will incur tackling such a project. Ive also seen how even forum members have complained about the prices of cb species other than panthers. Also seen how hard it is for some members to sell these healthy cb offspring. I see people recommending to others to go with cb whenever possible then those same people will go buy an imported cham to save $$$. As opposed to buying that higher priced cb thats in the classifieds.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
It's true...I just bought a cb carpet for more than twice what I've seen imported carpets cost. But it's worth it to me to encourage breeding instead of destruction of true populations. I would have gotten cb pygmies if I could have ever found any. But as much as I hate to say it, it still would have been worth considering because they would have been so much more expensive than imports, and I'm certainly not rolling in money right now! In fact it's quite the opposite still being in school.

Unfortunately looking at the bottom line makes it difficult to really encourage cb babies, especially for people just getting into the reptile hobby and only looking at what's pretty and prices. Birds and mammals don't present this problem so a lot of people are just completely unaware of the impact or even existence of imports vs captive bred.

I think the cb panthers have really taken off because you can see the lineage and know what kind of colors to expect. That kind of genealogy isn't readily available in any other species I know of. So at least that has really helped limit imported panthers from what I've seen.
 

pssh

Avid Member
People just don't want chameleons with weird rostral projections and blotchy colors that aren't super cool. :/ it's about the color! I mean, people like quads because they have sails which are 'cool' so you can sell those for more. And anything that can turn white people really like. And then mellers are huge, so that's the appeal there AND cb babies arent exactly common. Even WC babies aren't very common, so there's the appeal for those guys. Jacksons have the horns, so they get bought. Veileds are dirt cheap and common so people usually see those at the store and get them.

They don't appreciate the lizards until after they get them and realize how cool they are compared to other species. Plus everyone is penny pinching and what not.
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
Speaking of mellers for example. When flux had his cb babies for sale I saw several members complain because of pricing. I stated then and now that I cant find fault in anyones pricing on cb babies. (Not meaning to single you out flux, i just saw mellers in pssh's post and remembered your offspring last yr) Especially since he was selling a rarely seen cb species. I mean we see clutches of cb pardalis, veileds, & even jacksons regularly. But how many times a year do you see actual cb mellers offspring from a breeder that has documented their progress from incubation to hatching to the 3 month stage. So that you know the lineage and your buying healthy cb. Thats why Im saying we havent seen the progression in breeding some of the rarer species in captivity because unless your dedicated and love that species you wont want to accept the monetary loss your going to have. I mean you cant even break even on a breeding endeavor for most of the montane species.
 

Cainschams

New Member
I completely agree with you, Scott!!!!

Not only are these CB animals less abundant than veileds and panthers, they are harder to keep and breed in some aspects. At least there isnt a ton of information on them.

For instance, when I have had Kinyongia tavetana hatchlings. These need to be raised until an older age due to the very slow growth of the species. You would not believe the deals I gave people. Besides the measly 100$ I asked for each animal, anyone that got a pair also got offered each additional animal after that for 50$. Not that the money side is what I am about but it is discouraging to not at least break even. Although, I am glad they all went to good homes. That is what makes me happy about it. And quite frankly, who says K. tavetana isnt cool:confused: Chainsaw looking horns, super long tails, nice varying shades of colors, SUPER ACTIVE!!! I would do it all over again and plan to.

For those who actually complained about the price of those CB melleri, do us a favor and cut your fingers off so you cant disrespect someone like that again.:mad:

Ferritinmyshoes, with all due respect:) I wouldnt compare being able to see lineage of panthers to that of melleri, tavetana, quads etc. Those other species, for the most part, are quite uniform. Yes there are better examples than others but there is no selective breeding going on with these less common types. For one, the animals are less common, much harder to care for because of only being available as WCs 99% of the time, and just plain old no one is working with them much. Although I do wonder where the hell all of these WCs go and why you do not see hardly any CB animals from them. I know the forums isnt the end all to cham keepers but you would think you would see some on kingsnake here and there. I have only been keeping chams for......eh......I dont know, 7 to 9 years without trying to figure out when I got my first cham. I have never seen any CB tavetana on the market besides the ones I have produced.

Sorry, huge rant there:D

Psssh, what is not cool about weird rostral appendages? Dont get me wrong, I think some panthers are very cool looking. But I see it like I see the music industry. The easiest music to play is what is on the radio, no one gives credit to the super talented musicians who play much harder guitar licks, drums etc. besides those who do the same for the most part. Also people are brainless when it comes to that. The media shoves what is "cool" all over the radio. Top 40 junk will always make more money regardless if it sucks. The media could start telling everyone Barry Manilow is cool again and people would eat it up just to be the cool kid on the block who listens to the coolest music.

Yet another rant about something that I am passionate about:D
 
Last edited:

laurie

Retired Moderator
I totally agreed on the pricing crap. I have the cutest tav's in the world, I plan to keep and breed them. They are small - I will keep them all if I need to.:)

This is also a perfect time for me to admit I put my foot in my mouth up to my hip.:( I had the stupidity to ask fluxlizard why his mellers were so expensive!! Instead of telling me to go to - well where ever- he actually sat down and sent me a accounting of what it cost him. Boy did I look like the biggest fool on the forum. Ok still do in that respect. I still feel like he should kick me in the butt. I am suprised he would even let me buy one of his for my sister.Having learned the hard way, I have nothing but respect for a person expecting and demanding what their chameleons are worth. Sad that it took that for me, who should know better. Our hobby really is messed up on how prices are set.
 

Cainschams

New Member
I totally agreed on the pricing crap. I have the cutest tav's in the world, I plan to keep and breed them. They are small - I will keep them all if I need to.:)

This is also a perfect time for me to admit I put my foot in my mouth up to my hip.:( I had the stupidity to ask fluxlizard why his mellers were so expensive!! Instead of telling me to go to - well where ever- he actually sat down and sent me a accounting of what it cost him. Boy did I look like the biggest fool on the forum. Ok still do in that respect. I still feel like he should kick me in the butt. I am suprised he would even let me buy one of his for my sister.Having learned the hard way, I have nothing but respect for a person expecting and demanding what their chameleons are worth. Sad that it took that for me, who should know better. Our hobby really is messed up on how prices are set.

Dont cut your fingers off, Laurie:D You gotta keep giving those tavetana great care! Although, I feel like asking and complaining are on totally different levels!

Edit: Ive had people ask why the Bradys are so high. Besides them being pretty rare, especially in the US, importing them is not cheap either. I have broken down the costs for those who are actually interested in them. I do what I do for the love of the hobby, not to make a killer amount of money. Although, on things like the imports I do expect to at least break even for my time and efforts.
 

laurie

Retired Moderator
Dont cut your fingers off, Laurie:D You gotta keep giving those tavetana great care! Although, I feel like asking and complaining are on totally different levels!

Edit: Ive had people ask why the Bradys are so high. Besides them being pretty rare, especially in the US, importing them is not cheap either. I have broken down the costs for those who are actually interested in them. I do what I do for the love of the hobby, not to make a killer amount of money. Although, on things like the imports I do expect to at least break even for my time and efforts.
I was looking to see which of my hubby knifes are the sharpest.:( you and I are the same, we do what we love. Soooooo go find more neat chams for the two or us & Trace or or we are in trouble.
 

pssh

Avid Member
It's not me, it's a superficial thing. If it doesn't look high end then it's not going to be sold for as much. While you may see their noses as cool looking, many others do not. To them it's not as cool as a jacksons or quads horns or as high end and sleek looking panther rostral stuff. Not everyone is like that, but there indeed are some. And even if people don't really care about how cool their nose is, if they don't absolutely love it then they are less likely to buy it. It's like veileds vs panthers. A lot of people like veileds and think they look just fine but if they really want a panther they are usually going to get the panther even though the veiled is perfectly fine to them. Although, the price may be set too high for their specific circumstances so they opt for the cheaper veiled.

Just my $0.02
 

warpdrive

Avid Member
two things:

suply and demand
WC does not equal cheaper after the vet bills and such before you can use that cham for breeding.

as for the rest, if Jared or anyone else would have CB T. Cristatus, I'm willing to pay a slightly higher price then others for the first pick or two. ;)

Harry
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
Pssh I see what your saying as far as broad marketability of panthers & veileds vs other species. Thats not what Im talking about though. We are saying that cb animals arent able to be sold for a fair market value because imported wcs are priced far too low on most rare species. While panther prices are related to that they arent the sole reason for the lower prices on other species.

Im very tempted at the moment to pick up a cpl of those cb ousties that LLL has listed presently @ $89 a piece. Thats just ridiculously low for a cb
fairly rare species. You see them cb about on par with mellers. (which is not very often) These are a fairly large and docile colorful species. Yet because you can get wc pairs for 100.00 a breeder has to sell his clutch for next to nothing. I'm with Jared I keep chams because I love them not for the $$. If it was the $$$ I'd have given up the hobby long ago.

The problem is I enjoy the challenge of breeding. The market prices and the ability to sell offspring has limited the number of species Ive worked with to this point. If at some point in the future I become a wealthy philantropist I may be able finally branch out and expand my projects. ;) (maybe I'll hit the lotto):D
 

Cainschams

New Member
(maybe I'll hit the lotto):D
This is what I am counting on:rolleyes: Then I will try to breed whatever I want if I am successful I will just give them away to good homes:D Actually, I might just give up my collection and spend my days traveling and hunting for them in their native land. Sorta like the guy who lived with the bears just without the dangers of getting eaten, by the chams at least:D
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
I hear ya man. If I could hit a jackpot I'd build a huge reptile breeding facility complete with indoor building and outdoor free range type caging. I'd like to observe a large group harem type setting with 1 male and 6-7 females with a huge enclosure. Like 20ft long X 10 ft deep and 7 ft high. Since Jim @ Cham Co. posted pics of his outdoor caging Im fascinated by a large group housing experiment outdoors. ;)
 

pssh

Avid Member
Oooooh, you're saying the wild caught price is too low. I thought you were saying the demand is too low so the prices have to be low.

Edit: Have an extra bathroom? :D
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
Oooooh, you're saying the wild caught price is too low. I thought you were saying the demand is too low so the prices have to be low.

Edit: Have an extra bathroom? :D
Demand def has something to do with my desire to expand into other species. I keep hearing how hard a time jared & luis had getting rid of their clutches. I remember Luis listing some of his offspring for like 60.00 last year. While I'm sure he's not in it for the cash. Im sure he'd at least like to make back enough to cover his costs assoc with feeding and electical bills.

If I had unlimited space & cash I wouldnt care, I'd just keep em all like Jared said. Maybe offer freebies to the local zoo & local herp society and see if they'd like to work with them also.

Ive actually been watching pricing and theres 2 species Im really interested in working with one of which Jared and Ive talked privately about. So if I can find some pairs avail this year I may move onto a new species while still working with pardalis to cover my expenses.;)
 

fluxlizard

New Member
I still feel like he should kick me in the butt.
Please don't let it bother you any more. :)

Let it go.

:)

I think with panthers a lot of it has to do with colors plus free advertising in the form of magazine articles, books, and especially word of mouth, etc.

You know, I appreciate very much the things like the kinyongia and the oustallets being offered.

The kinyongia especially so because here on the forums we have someone breeding them consistently- an expert. To me, buying from someone like that who could tell me everything I need to know to be successful is worth a lot. So I watched the classifieds with my guts a little twisted because I can't fit them into my space and budget at this time. And I was disappointed to watch how slowly they sold even here on a forums with a bunch of chameleon enthusiasts and then see the price drop. I really hope you keep working with them into the future so I can get some at some point. They are a beautiful lizard.

The oustalets too- LLL must have bought them up for almost nothing - Not sure which makes me a little more sick, the thought that they probably only paid somebody $40 each for very well started babies which are very rarely bred and offered or the fact that even at $85 they are out of my budget right now. Oustalets are one of my favorites- I had a pair once and the male was really huge and heavy bodied with awesome skin texture. The lighter tops of the scales made each scale "pop" from the background. His spines were really cool and he had a wonderful personality to him and a super powerful tongue. They are a premium quality animal and rarely offered. I can't believe the price they are going for.

Early in the thread someone said it's all about color and people don't like the ornamentation. Speaking of myself, I think it's kind of like fine art or wine where the more a person is exposed to, the more they appreciate the subtleties of texture, color and ornamentation. I like my lizards to look "beastly" personally, with rough textures like an oustalets or the bark-like scale textures on the sides of fishers, and I like them to have ornamentation, like the spiny crests on the oustalets or the rostral ornaments of a fishers or the occipital lobes of a mellers and horns and fins and big plate like scales scattered in for effect on a montium or wondrously soft skin that almost glows on a quadricornis.
 

Ace

Avid Member
wow, intersting thread...

and at the reptile super showi too seen the cb outslets babies for 89 dollars, and a few others.

i also got lucky to see cb baby hoenheli for 150 dollars, they looked awsome and the price seemed more then reasonable:D, but alas(parents factor) :/

also i agree with harry

if anyone is going to have cb melleri in the future (cough cough), i wouldnt mind paying the price to have a pick of one:rolleyes::p:D...lol
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
I could consider paying prices something similar to baby panthers for captive bred species such as T.quadricornis, T.deremensis, and and K. matschiei. Plus paying a bit more than baby panther prices for captive bred or hatched mellers.
 

Hoven

New Member
My two cents

Pricing is kind of messed up... but the way I see things the biggest cost in a chameleon is its enclosure and care (over its life span) next to that (assuming its not an adult parsonii and you don't have some sort of zero cost method for enclosure and food) the actual cost of the chameleon isn't all that big of a concern.
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
There are the South African Dwarf chameleons (Bradypodion species). Most all of these species will cost you more than most panther color phases. These prices hold especially true here in the USA.
 
Top Bottom