Parson Chameleon Color Phases

I hear you, just the point is that working these animals is a privilage and to justify working with them in captivity we should also be conserving them in the wild. I think CITES has done a good job with Madagascar (significantly limited the number of wild caught chameleons for export) and if they approve and the animals they approve come from a breeder with a good track record (selling Parsoni for consistantly for six years without incident from Fish and Game or CITES that's good for me). Just make an attempt to give back to conserving Madagascar wild lands. However you justify it in the end is up to you.
 
I understand where you're coming from about the majority of Parson's keepers now, Benny, BUT the moral objection I have is that people are making thousands of dollars/euros/etc from smuggling animals that don't breed well in captivity and that are supposed to be protected from the pet trade in the first place. Please don't try to descredit me by saying I'm just jealous of those who own them now. I've been keeping chameleons for a very long time and had a trio of Parson's in the past, probably before you had even heard of them. :p I know where to get them now and have had many opportunities to do so. The moral question as well as the fact that many of these supposed captive hatched imports have failed to survive long-term has kept me well away from them. I also have an objection to people talking about them as if they are 100% legal. This gives newbies to the hobby the wrong idea about the species. Remember the newbie trying to import and sell Parson's through this site a couple months ago? Many people get into these things without adequate experience, guidance, or intentions. I find that wrong.

eisentrauti said:
We all know the truth QUOTE]

You and I know the truth, but certainly not "all" of us as is evident by the majority of the posts in threads about Calumma in captivity.
Click to expand...
 
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But the money saves those animals also to get in the wrong hands. From my knowledge I don't think that at the moment much animals are smuggled from Madagascar. Here in Europe you can't make that much money with them. Just as an example at the last Hamm show, some healthy ones were available for 300€ but they don't go away !

You are right, you have probably kept them before I even start with chameleons and I don't exactly know how many of them were smuggled some years ago. But now many serious keepers try to breed them and I know a few persons who have breed them succesfully; just in small numbers but that's better than nothing
 
eisentrauti said:
But the money saves those animals also to get in the wrong hands.
Click to expand...

And it also tells the sellers that someone else will buy the next ones they get in and the next ones.... They simply don't all go to experienced people, just people who can afford to lose them. Just like prior to the suspension, very experienced people are trying to breed them but vastly more are coming into this country than are hatching so I don't see it as a "better than nothing" situation. Who was it that said they've had literally hundreds (500?) of eggs but never hatched a single one? Better than ANYTHING would be leaving them where they have the best chance of reproducing. Next best, imo, would be giving the exporters in Madagascar an incentive to do the population studies and try to get the suspension lifted on a few species. If they can make the same money on small shipments of suspended species that they could shipping out larger quantities of legal specimens, the suspension will never be lifted.
 
First of all I couldn't believe that one single person has had that many eggs and nothing hatched.
But in your other points you are right
 
The Madagascar chameleon situation has come along way since the CITES ban and along with conservation the situation has improved (except for the recent political troubles). Their is no longer 3000 (don't quote me on the exact number) wild caught Parsons chameleons being imported a year and 95% of them dieing two months after being imported. As well the captive breeding seems to have improved (in Europe for instance).
 
I still think wild chameleons should not be imported in any large numbers (even panthers) and any wild chameleons that come from Madagascar should go to breeding programs (not to the public wild animals do not make good pets)(meaning people that are working with three pairs or more with the goal to captive breed these animals) and other hobbiest should buy from these breeders (some what similar to whats happening in Europe).
 
Before collecting specimines (CITES quotas etc) from the wild there should be a protected wild core population. Some of these new specimeins of Parsons like the Giant Green and Honey Parsons should not be considered for collecting. They are not yet well protected to my knowledge and should not be harvested until a core population in the wild is protected. I'm a fan of working with Parson (farm/ captive bred) and other species, if wild caughts are imported in small numbers (to preferably breeders) and the species has a protected wild core population. To me working with these specimines is a privilage of achieved conservation goals and a motivating reward. Looking at and working with my Panther and Parsons motivates my to stay active and actively seek out conservation programs (Madagascar and other areas on the planet) that insure these species I have got love for are protected and thrive in the wild.
 
Im sorry but didnt everything start with trial and error. theres is no dought that parsons care in captivity has changed dramatically. Alot is due to fact that they are so pricey, again it doesnt weed out all but it does most. Its becouse these animal are so pricey is why peaple are more carefull pay closer attention to there special needs. Every day peaple get closer and closer to hatching them, sooner or later it will happen. At the rate these forest come down isnt it time we support the ones that come in, before its too late. I guess what im saying is what if we wait till the forest are almost gone. Then we decide we better attempt captive breeding, by then the animals will come in even more stressed out and pickings will be even more slim to get a healthy animal. Regardless of whats said and done these animals are coming in.
 
Yeah, just now they are not comming in at rape and pillaged numbers like before. I'm a fan of that, what I stating is sustainable goals for what we should be planning for and with more progress with captive breeding we should be buying captive bred over wild caught. With protected core areas is probably the best way for convice CITES to make quotas for other species if conservation efforts are accomplished.

You can buy CITES quotas wild caught I'm just saying you should look captive bred first.

Asian Arowana farms started similarly with Illegal wild caught fish during the 1980's. However due to accomplished breeding programs they are legitimate farms now and Asian Arowanas are not endangered in captivity to the point CITES started allowing trade again during 1990's. Something similar could happen with chameleons. To finish the job with both these species (Arowanas and chameleons) they have got to be protected in the wild.
 
Here in Europe there are some people who have Parson's but because here it's a big problem getting legal Cites papers nobody ever writes or talks about experiences. That's too bad because it could help the people who are having legal Parson's and maybe get this specie to breed. But as everyone is afraid to get an inspection they don't share information, a shame...
About the coloring i don't know, just as i said, here in Europe nobody shares information.
 
I wish they were less money so then I could justify owning one. I cant spend $2k american that is a lot of cash and panthers are pricy enough. However, I understand your point about keeping them out of idiots hands.
 
Come on... here are so many guys which haven't even buyed a book about chameleons...
Every day those threads: "Help my new chameleon is sick / have problems"...I'm really really happy that parsoniis are so expensive.
 
I agree, the fact that Parsons cost so much prevents a huge amout of Parson deaths and contributes to Parson conservation. They are not a panther or vield chameleons (although these species are great chameleons) they are definite expert level chameleons (not for beginners or as a first chameleon).
 
hi you all

several months ago i did see an ad on terraristik.com
that andreas böle had som yellow giants and brevicornis for sale, they were cb
 
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