New chameleon, has swelling above and in front of hind legs

[chris]

just received a new female chameleon yesterday. she is huge and looks and behaves great, but she seems to have some swelling around her hind quarters.

wondering if anyone has seen something like this before... i was told this could be due to inactivity during shipping and will go away after 1 or 2 days with movement and rehydration or that it could be how she is positioned.

im attaching some quick pictures i took. i know they are horrible hoping to give a general idea for now. i will take some more tonight after work. any thoughts or input would be appreciated.

thanks in advance

 

[kinyonga]

It looks to me like she is FULL of eggs.
Does she have a place to dig in her cage to lay them?
If not, then I would get her a place to dig RIGHT NOW!
I hope she's not eggbound.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Hmmmmmmm....

Well your pictures are good enough to see that there is something going on there. Her belly looks a bit bloated all over. The area that is bulging is exactly where chams have a fat pad on either side of the body. It looks like she has edema in that area. It does not look like she is bulging from eggs. The shape of the bulge looks like the fat pad is being pushed out by swelling.

I would put the seller of this cham on notice that it has some sort of health condition so that if something more serious happens you can get a refund or replacement. Do you have a reptile vet lined up yet? I would call one and get an appointment. I've gotten a lot of chams delivered to me and never had one arrive with this issue. If you wake up tomorrow and the swelling is gone you can call the vet an cancel the appointment. Even if it did go away, I would keep a close eye on her in the future. She may have an underlying issue (renal, for instance) that makes her susceptible to edema. Let us know what happens. We can all learn something from this situation. I hope she is ok and will keep my fingers crossed for her

 

[PardalisGirl]

More info from seller..........

Sorry Kinyonga........I was working on my post while yours posted. I was assuming that the seller of the cham would have known if the female was gravid at the time she was shipped. The seller had stated that it was due to shipping and should "go away" in a couple of days which seemed to say that the seller did not think she was gravid. This could be a wrong assumption on my part though. I think more questions to the seller are in order.....

 

[kinyonga]

Strange how often two different people work on posts at the same time, eh!!

It looks like eggs to me....but I could be wrong. The pictures are not all that clear. I would still put the container in for it to dig in and hope that (if I'm right) that she still can lay the eggs.

Don't really know what the seller knows...but I hope that Chris wasn't sold an eggbound chameleon.

 

[LunaC]

Is she supposed to be CB? Is the seller a cham breeder?
My first inclination is to say eggs, but even then, the belly doesn't look like a "normal" gravid female to me. Just to be on the safe side, you might want to get her a laying box quickly, until you can determine exactly what the problem may be.
One thing is certain, it isn't due to inactivity during shipping and she shouldn't need to be rehydrated if she was cared for properly and shipped properly (overnight, AM delivery).
As preveiously posted, I would definitely put the shipper on notice in the event it is something serious.
Please try to get better pics if you're able. For now, give her plenty of water, foliage to hide in, and privacy. The less stress the better for that girl.

 

[Dylan Dutz]

Like others said before, I also think she is gravid. Get something she can lay her eggs.

 

[Chase]

Holy f*** she is full of eggs!!! Shes huge!!!

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

gravid animal
that is also swelled with air.
If her fat pad is THAT SWOLLEN... she wouldn't be able to walk properly.

can you give us a idea as to her length and weight
a side profile shot would also be good of her on a flat surface.
just to help me be sure. (weight is key)

you don't know what the male is like or from so
you may not wish to invest the time or energy with the eggs
(blind crossing of locals)
I say let her relax all you can from the stress of shipping this time of year
and give her a suitable place to lay (from within her current cage setup).
Do not use the patented apple heat lamp chameleon exterminator™ setup
KISS it and give her lots of plant cover.

good luck.

 

[chris]

wow that was a lot of responses thanks guys!
i guess i shouldve put some more information in my OP.
she comes from a very reputable breeder i think they post on these forums actually. she is a virgin female and she definately is not gravid, she is just a very big girl lol.
i was thinking the same thing about the edema. when you push on them they go in and come back out, they seem like they have fluid in them. i have contacted him and that was the advice he gave me to keep her hydrated and let her move around for a couple days. if after a couple days it doesnt change i know he will make it right.
i was wondering more if anyone had personally seen this before because ive never had any chams with this before and have never even heard of this being a problem. the more information i can collect the better.

thanks again

 

[lillamy]

Have you checked so it's not a hernia? You say you can push the swelling in; Does it come back out quick och slow? Can you fell a "hole" in the abdominal wall when you have pushed the swelling in? (like under the skin) It doesn't have to be a big hernia to make the pouch big.

Just a thought though. I might bee on the completely wrong track... But it's an idea any way

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

wow that was a lot of responses thanks guys!
i guess i shouldve put some more information in my OP.
she comes from a very reputable breeder i think they post on these forums actually. she is a virgin female and she definately is not gravid, she is just a very big girl lol.
i was thinking the same thing about the edema. when you push on them they go in and come back out, they seem like they have fluid in them. i have contacted him and that was the advice he gave me to keep her hydrated and let her move around for a couple days. if after a couple days it doesnt change i know he will make it right.
i was wondering more if anyone had personally seen this before because ive never had any chams with this before and have never even heard of this being a problem. the more information i can collect the better.

thanks again

It wouldn't hurt, and would probably make us feel better , if, in the mean time, you provided an egg laying container for her . Sometimes with these mystery situations, it's best to cover every possibility? Sometimes virgins lay eggs.

I guess with edema I would expect to see the extremeties and the neck area affected first?

 

[chris]

barely able to keep her from moving to get some pics, but i did get some better ones. i have placed her in a laying container just in case.

jeweledchameleon she is 84 grams 11" total 5.5" SVL.

hope this helps.

 

[FL Chams]

She looks gravid to me as well.

 

[chris]

it could be possible she has a small nonviable clutch i cant feel any eggs. she is around 6 months old i believe not showing receptive or non-receptive colors just plain reddish brown. i'll keep her in the bucket for now.

thanks again

 

[chris]

well we found out what it is. we took some xrays of her and she is gravid and with a lot of eggs. i counted at least 35 individual eggs most likey more since the bottom quarter of her was just a large blob on the screen. there are so many in her so they are pushing out her pads in that area. do you think this is a problem missing her first breeding and having the first clutch be nonviable? does it also seem like an awfully large amount of eggs not even being bred?

i was expecting a receptive female to breed right away, not a gravid one. Other than this she is perfect in every way down to the toenails. Do you think this is cause enough to return her or should i keep her and just breed her when she is ready again?

thanks for you help everyone,
chris

 

[kinyonga]

You said..." do you think this is a problem missing her first breeding and having the first clutch be nonviable?"...no, the story that says they have to be bred when they first become sexually mature or they will die eggbound is an old wive's tale. It was usually the result of poor husbandry (too much food, no suitable place for her to lay eggs, etc.) Sometimes a female can't lay the eggs due to a physical problem (fused eggs, misformed eggs, reproductive system problems, etc.).

How long did the person you bought her from have her?
How long has she been that "fat"?

You said..."does it also seem like an awfully large amount of eggs not even being bred?"...the size of the clutch has more to do with how much food they are being fed when they are starting to produce eggs.

I don't know how long she has been carrying her eggs...but it worries me that she could be eggbound. I hope I'm wrong and that she will lay them.

There are a few possibilites....
If she's been producing the eggs for around 30 days (or less) then its possible she will still lay the eggs.

If she has been working on them for a long time, then I would say she has considerably less chance of laying them and a good chance of being eggbound.

If she has dug at some point when she was with her previous owner but not laid any eggs, then I would say she could be eggbound.

If she has had no suitable place to dig to lay eggs then she could be eggbound.

Wish I could be more hopeful. Of course its all just my opinion...I sure hope she lays them and that I'm wrong.

 

[chris]

i will keep in contact with the breeder and see what he says. just a little disappointing having to wait for her to lay these infertile eggs and then have to wait again to breed her. the breeder never said anything about her being gravid but ill assume the best and assume he didn't know. i will keep the bucket with her in the cage for now even though she does not seem restless. i have noticed she has stopped eating and has not laid a stool.

i really think she is a beautiful specimen but my main question is, is this a valid complaint, think i should return her or keep her?

 

[PardalisGirl]

I'm glad you went to the vet

Good job on going to the vet! A lot of people would have fussed around with the guessing until something worse happened. Whether you keep her or not is up to how you personally feel about her. If I kept her I would do it with an extended guarantee period to cover the egg laying and recovery time. Or I would ask for a big up front discount on the price. Or a combination of the two. There is no question that a large number of eggs (I think you are right about there being more than you could count) will be more stressful to her body than a smaller number of say 20 something. It will take longer to recover. That is if she lays them properly. A reputable seller will agree to do these things. In my biased heart I hope you keep her somehow. She would have a good home. Your effort to get her to a vet right off the bat demonstrates that

 

[chris]

well we are lucky in that we have access to x-ray machines at the hospital my girlfriend works at and her boss thinks all the chams are cute. we cant print them but we can look at them on the computer screens.
More i think about it though why would a big name breeder with many years experience send out an animal that to him should have obviously looked gravid? and say the swelling was due to inactivity and should be hydrated? i don't know, i want to keep her and i know she is technically a virgin but i was expecting a ready to breed cham. if the eggs are pushing out her that much it cant be good. i have a panther her size lay over 40 eggs and she was nowhere near this big.

chris