Bad leg ? Gout?!

[BugDusty]

I’ve seen a couple other posts about funny legs, but they are all individual cases so hope it’s ok to post a separate one.

Hello, my Cham is not using his front right foot for the last 2 week or so. 3 other legs have a very strong grip and active. But front one is avoided unless he as too. When I touch it he pulls away.
He fell off my shoulder (onto soft carpet) 3 weeks ago. He likes to climb out of his cage and up arm to shoulder, but slipped off. So I thought maybe he might have injured it, immediately after he was fine though and using it, but now, looking at the elbow it seems a bit swollen. And also been reading about gout, So now I’m worried it’s actually gout. I don’t think it’s bone disease.
i think he was quite thirsty for some reason, as when I sprayed his cage a couple days about he started drinking from the sprayer , which doesn’t happen usually. He should be getting enough water though (see photo of recordings)



I would really love to not take him to the vet as it costs a fortune here in Uk! But I guess I should?





Chameleon Info:



Your Chameleon -

Male Panther Chameleon

Unsure of exact age but I think born around Nov 2022



Handling - comes out of cage at least once every two days to hang around on houseplants.



Feeding - Gutloaded locusts, dubia roaches (not many, he doesn’t like them, morio worms and silkworms (very occasionally).

Fav is Morio- only realised that he shouldn’t have so many recently.



He has a healthy appetite. Possibly too healthy. But I don’t think he’s overweight.

He’ll eat around 3 insects per day. Sometimes 4.



Gutload: mostly Bug Burger with some spinach, rocket, carrots apples, broccoli. I don’t blend the hard veg. Been reading that I should.



Supplements -

Arcadia EarthPro-A - for a while - every feed, but then got worried I was giving him too much so stopped for about a month recently - could this be an issue? Started up again now.



Watering - misting 4 times in 24 hours morning/ mid day and evening. Fogging at night between 1am and 4am at 20 min bursts.





Fecal Description - white , pretty wet (I’ll attach photo.) usually holds together neatly, but a bit mushy recently.



History -

Had him for about six months he’s been very consistent, so that why a bit worried.

Usually very calm personality, and active but last few days not moving around much. And growling at me if I get too close.



Cage Info:



Cage Type - Glass. Dimensions are about

90x60x45cm





Lighting - Arcadia T5 12% and Jungle Dawn. Plus heat lamp.



Both light stay on from 7.30am - 7.30pm Heat lamp is set to switch off if her basking spot gets over 31C



Temperature -

Basking is a max of 27C

Most of the rest of the cage sits at about 21C. At night temps get as low as 14C but usually are more around 18C.



I use a wifi monitor system to record temp and humidity. See photos



Humidity - It usually sits at around 60-90%, fluctuating a little during the day.



Plants - all well established house plants. Nothing toxic.



Placement -

See photos.

 

[nightanole]

you have a 12% sitting on top of the cage. Id move it up 6-12" just to be sure.

Id also cut all supplements for a month other than a pure calcium powder.


Your other issue, earthpro A. Where is your "every feeder" calcium? Earthpro A is calcium and a non D3 vitamin/mineral powder. But if you are not using it every feeder, what are you using for calcium?


For all we know, this is a swollen bone or slight fracture, from not enough calcium.

 

[BugDusty]

I don’t understand your message, it sounds contradictory. Do I stop all supplements or use calcium? The EarthPro A is the everyday calcium supply. At least that’s what I’ve been told by various people. Once a month I dust a feeder or two in Arcadia EarthPro RevitaliseD3. Can you explain what you mean please?

I did have the light above, but it is now 8 months old so moved it down. As you can see from the meter reading it varies from 6 at the very top to 1 or so lower down. There is a lot of foliage in the inclosure so I thought it better to have it lower so that there were shaded areas.

 

[BugDusty]

I’ve ordered some Arcadia CalciumPro Mg as I don’t think he’s getting any Mg - didn’t realise this was important.

 

[Beman]

Hey there welcome to the forum... My concern is that the arm is directly connected to the fall. So possibly a fracture which most vets would not be able to do much about because you can not cast their limbs like other animals... I am going to touch on the items that do stand out to me.

Gutload: mostly Bug Burger with some spinach, rocket, carrots apples, broccoli. I don’t blend the hard veg. Been reading that I should.

Stop using the Spinach. Spinach is calcium binding which you do not want for a chameleon because it can prevent calcium absorption.

Arcadia EarthPro-A - for a while - every feed, but then got worried I was giving him too much so stopped for about a month recently - could this be an issue? Started up again now.

So EP-A is a plain calcium supplement without any fat soluble vitamins. There are water soluble vitamins in it. It is perfectly safe to use every feed. But you are missing a multivitamin with D3 and A. I would recommend repashy calcium plus LoD version. It has a jackson chameleon on the label. This one would only be used 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. He needs the supplements especially if he is dealing with a fracture. But we use them specifically to balance the phosphorus to calcium ratio of the feeders we give them.

Usually very calm personality, and active but last few days not moving around much. And growling at me if I get too close.

I honestly would not pull him from the cage at all over the next month or so. Let him rest. Hand feed to maintain trust.

Lighting - Arcadia T5 12% and Jungle Dawn. Plus heat lamp.

Ok I see you have a solarmeter and I see your levels your pulling. I also see your enclosure is heavily planted at the top. So a 12% may be needed in your situation. Typically a 6% is recommended only because it provides the uvi needed. When we up to a 12% it is only when we can test levels and we have a heavily planted enclosure. Which you do. So what your looking for is a 3 UVI. You want to test all of the exposed areas where he can openly bask without plants above him. The plants will block uvi. So run the solarmeter throughout the cage. Like I said your looking for a 3 range. But exposure should never be higher than a 6 UVI.

 

[Sonny13]

I’ve ordered some Arcadia CalciumPro Mg as I don’t think he’s getting any Mg - didn’t realise this was important.

Your supplements are good, I’m using the same. EP-A you can use for every feeding. You don’t need the CalciumPro.

 

[BugDusty]

Hey there welcome to the forum... My concern is that the arm is directly connected to the fall. So possibly a fracture which most vets would not be able to do much about because you can not cast their limbs like other animals... I am going to touch on the items that do stand out to me.


Stop using the Spinach. Spinach is calcium binding which you do not want for a chameleon because it can prevent calcium absorption.

So EP-A is a plain calcium supplement without any fat soluble vitamins. There are water soluble vitamins in it. It is perfectly safe to use every feed. But you are missing a multivitamin with D3 and A. I would recommend repashy calcium plus LoD version. It has a jackson chameleon on the label. This one would only be used 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. He needs the supplements especially if he is dealing with a fracture. But we use them specifically to balance the phosphorus to calcium ratio of the feeders we give them.

I honestly would not pull him from the cage at all over the next month or so. Let him rest. Hand feed to maintain trust.

Ok I see you have a solarmeter and I see your levels your pulling. I also see your enclosure is heavily planted at the top. So a 12% may be needed in your situation. Typically a 6% is recommended only because it provides the uvi needed. When we up to a 12% it is only when we can test levels and we have a heavily planted enclosure. Which you do. So what your looking for is a 3 UVI. You want to test all of the exposed areas where he can openly bask without plants above him. The plants will block uvi. So run the solarmeter throughout the cage. Like I said your looking for a 3 range. But exposure should never be higher than a 6 UVI.

Thanks for all this ok, I’ll get that the recommended repashy product. I don’t put spinach in very much actually. But will stop now.

Do you think I’m over feeding him though? He’s not been interested in any food today. But was very thirsty earlier. I have a dripper but I don’t use it. Because he never seems that interested by it.

Re the food. Should I mix some of the calcium powder into the feeders food and mush it all up. So that I can get some extra calcium into him?

He’s back in his home now. Still holding his arm away

 

[Beman]

Thanks for all this ok, I’ll get that the recommended repashy product. I don’t put spinach in very much actually. But will stop now.

Do you think I’m over feeding him though? He’s not been interested in any food today. But was very thirsty earlier. I have a dripper but I don’t use it. Because he never seems that interested by it.

Re the food. Should I mix some of the calcium powder into the feeders food and mush it all up. So that I can get some extra calcium into him?

He’s back in his home now. Still holding his arm away

So at a year old he would be on an every other day feeding schedule of 3-5 feeders. You will lightly dust feeders only. You do not want them coated like powdered donuts. I would not add anything to your gutload. With the Cal mg you can rotate that into your supplement schedule like 2-4 times a month. Say once a week if on an every other day feeding. Then EP-A all other feedings except 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th when you use the repashy calcium plus LoD multivitamin. This one is only 2 times a month. This will cover all needs of calcium and multivitamins.

He may not be taking food as frequently because they will typically curb down around 10-14 months old. They simply do not need every day feedings because they are at an age of very minimal additional growth. Or he may be backing off food because he is sore. This is where hand feeding may be a good option since he would not need to move around as much to get to it.

I would add the dripper to the cage. If he is eager to drink let him have the opportunity each day for additional water intake. He may or may not use it but it will be there for him. This also covers gout risk... Gout can happen when they do not have enough hydration and their renal system does not function as well as it should. Uric acid crystals build up and cause the swelling in the joints. I doubt he has gout or the more severe version of gout that is non reversible. I doubt this due to his age and due to the hydration methods you have been providing.

Make adjustments and keep a close eye on him. If eyes start sinking in this is a bad sign and would mean a vet appointment. If he stops eating all together, stops basking, and you see a total change in behavior this would also mean a vet appointment. So I would go ahead and look into your options for vets near you. You may not find one with cham experience but you need one that knows how to work with reptiles meaning do a blood draw and take xrays.

 

[BugDusty]

So at a year old he would be on an every other day feeding schedule of 3-5 feeders. You will lightly dust feeders only. You do not want them coated like powdered donuts. I would not add anything to your gutload. With the Cal mg you can rotate that into your supplement schedule like 2-4 times a month. Say once a week if on an every other day feeding. Then EP-A all other feedings except 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th when you use the repashy calcium plus LoD multivitamin. This one is only 2 times a month. This will cover all needs of calcium and multivitamins.

He may not be taking food as frequently because they will typically curb down around 10-14 months old. They simply do not need every day feedings because they are at an age of very minimal additional growth. Or he may be backing off food because he is sore. This is where hand feeding may be a good option since he would not need to move around as much to get to it.

I would add the dripper to the cage. If he is eager to drink let him have the opportunity each day for additional water intake. He may or may not use it but it will be there for him. This also covers gout risk... Gout can happen when they do not have enough hydration and their renal system does not function as well as it should. Uric acid crystals build up and cause the swelling in the joints. I doubt he has gout or the more severe version of gout that is non reversible. I doubt this due to his age and due to the hydration methods you have been providing.

Make adjustments and keep a close eye on him. If eyes start sinking in this is a bad sign and would mean a vet appointment. If he stops eating all together, stops basking, and you see a total change in behavior this would also mean a vet appointment. So I would go ahead and look into your options for vets near you. You may not find one with cham experience but you need one that knows how to work with reptiles meaning do a blood draw and take xrays.

Thank you so much for this. Very useful information. Glad to hear it hopefully isn’t gout, but will keep a watchful eye.
I’ll keep you all posted.

 

[Beman]

Thank you so much for this. Very useful information. Glad to hear it hopefully isn’t gout, but will keep a watchful eye.
I’ll keep you all posted.

My pleasure. Please do keep us updated. If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask.

 

[BugDusty]

Hello I just thought an update might be useful to people in the future. Nothing concrete as yet but he’s using his arm a bit more, though he hasn’t eaten anything in a few days a far as I can work out.

I went to a vet for a blood test and the results came back saying he may potentially have a liver issue, though they were wanting to take him back in to operate on him and remove some of his liver to check it. I decided this was probably not a sensible thing to do as yet. And quite intrusive. Maybe we should wait for little while and see if things improve, as he is not physically sick. He might just have a sprained arm or light fracture. Though I declined the £600 X-ray that the Vet was also recommending. Sorry if this sounds heartless, but I think it’s a little absurd.


I will attach the PDF of his Blood report


I asked Chat GPT to explain a few things.

Creatine kinase (CK), also known as creatine phosphokinase (CPK), is an enzyme found in various tissues of the body, including muscles, heart, and brain. CK plays a crucial role in energy metabolism by catalyzing the conversion of creatine to phosphocreatine, which helps generate adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the primary energy source for cells.



In medical settings, CK is often measured through a blood test to assess the levels of this enzyme in the bloodstream. Elevated CK levels in the blood can indicate muscle damage or injury. When muscle cells are damaged, CK is released into the bloodstream, leading to increased CK levels.



Since CK is found in different tissues, the source of elevated CK levels can provide information about the affected tissue. For example, if CK levels are significantly elevated, it may suggest muscle damage, such as in cases of muscle trauma, muscular dystrophy, or excessive exercise. If CK levels are elevated along with other markers of heart damage, such as troponin, it could indicate a heart attack or myocardial infarction.



In summary, CK is an enzyme involved in energy metabolism, and elevated CK levels in the blood can indicate muscle damage or certain medical conditions. Proper interpretation of CK results, along with other clinical information, can help healthcare professionals diagnose and monitor various muscle and heart-related disorders.

Also, as I am not a vet, I sent the report through chat GPT with these results:



Lab Results:
The lab results indicate several abnormal findings, including elevated levels of albumin, total protein, alkaline phosphatase, uric acid, bile acid, AST, creatine kinase, GLDH, urea, sodium, potassium, calcium, ionized calcium, phosphorus, cholesterol, triglyceride, white cell count, hemoglobin, PCV, MCHC, and WBC differential. Some of these parameters are marked as high.

Clinical Comments:
According to the clinical comments, the veterinarian suggests that Skittles may be moderately dehydrated based on increased proteins, urea, and calcium levels. The elevated bile acids indicate underlying liver function issues. The veterinarian also mentions that AST and CK, which are markers for liver and skeletal muscle damage, are both elevated. However, the GLDH marker for hepatocellular damage is within the normal range. The calcium levels appear normal, making metabolic bone disease (MBD) less likely. The comment also suggests that poikilocytes (abnormal red blood cells) can be caused by iron deficiency anemia or liver disease.

Diagnosis and Course of Action:
Based on the information provided, it is recommended to consult with a veterinarian to further evaluate Skittles' condition. The elevated bile acids and liver function issues suggest the need for a thorough examination of the liver. Further tests may be necessary to assess liver function and identify any underlying liver disease. Dehydration should also be addressed, and appropriate measures should be taken to ensure proper hydration. The veterinarian can provide specific guidance on the diagnosis and course of treatment based on a comprehensive evaluation of Skittles' health.

The diagnostic results for the blood sample of the Chameleon suggest some health issues related to its liver function. The bile acids, which are substances produced by the liver, are found to be high. This indicates that there may be an underlying liver problem, possibly hepatopathy, affecting the liver's ability to function properly. Although it's normal for bile acid levels to increase after eating, the Chameleon's levels are higher than expected.

Elevated levels of both AST and CK enzymes can be seen in connective tissue, usually skeletal muscle, but it can also indicate liver damage. However, the GLDH enzyme, which is a marker for hepatocellular damage, appears to be within the normal range. Calcium levels in the blood appear normal, making metabolic bone disease (MBD) less likely. A normal level of uric acid makes articular gout less likely, although it doesn't completely rule it out as high levels can sometimes be temporary.



Markers of hepatocellular damage, such as liver enzymes like AST (aspartate aminotransferase) and ALT (alanine aminotransferase), may be elevated in blood tests, indicating liver injury. Other markers, such as GLDH (glutamate dehydrogenase), may also be used to assess hepatocellular damage specifically.

Creatine kinase (CK), also known as creatine phosphokinase (CPK), is an enzyme found in various tissues of the body, including muscles, heart, and brain. CK plays a crucial role in energy metabolism by catalyzing the conversion of creatine to phosphocreatine, which helps generate adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the primary energy source for cells.

In medical settings, CK is often measured through a blood test to assess the levels of this enzyme in the bloodstream. Elevated CK levels in the blood can indicate muscle damage or injury. When muscle cells are damaged, CK is released into the bloodstream, leading to increased CK levels.

Since CK is found in different tissues, the source of elevated CK levels can provide information about the affected tissue. For example, if CK levels are significantly elevated, it may suggest muscle damage, such as in cases of muscle trauma, muscular dystrophy, or excessive exercise. If CK levels are elevated along with other markers of heart damage, such as troponin, it could indicate a heart attack or myocardial infarction.

In summary, CK is an enzyme involved in energy metabolism, and elevated CK levels in the blood can indicate muscle damage or certain medical conditions. Proper interpretation of CK results, along with other clinical information, can help healthcare professionals diagnose and monitor various muscle and heart-related disorders.

 

[BugDusty]

View attachment 346427

 

[Beman]

@JacksJill do you know what the blood work indicates?

 

[BugDusty]

Thanks, I’d love to know some thoughts on the blood work.

With regards to dehydration, I have a fogging system which goes off in the night - 2 times for 30 mins. And a mister that goes off at 1am, 6am, 8am, 2pm 7pm. It’s a glass enclosure so I was surprised that he was dehydrated. Though I don’t use a dripper - as I’ve never seen him that interested.

 

[Beman]

Thanks, I’d love to know some thoughts on the blood work.

With regards to dehydration, I have a fogging system which goes off in the night - 2 times for 30 mins. And a mister that goes off at 1am, 6am, 8am, 2pm 7pm. It’s a glass enclosure so I was surprised that he was dehydrated. Though I don’t use a dripper - as I’ve never seen him that interested.

What are his urates looking like though?

 

[BugDusty]

What are his urates looking like though?

White, not yellow. The last one was very wet - but that was nearly a week ago. After I increased his water access. He hasn’t eaten anything in a week. I’m hoping to tempt him with silk worms that I’ve ordered.

In the past though his Urates Have been white, but quite hard. Like a solid bit of chalk. Is that ok?

 

[Beman]

White, not yellow. The last one was very wet - but that was nearly a week ago. After I increased his water access. He hasn’t eaten anything in a week. I’m hoping to tempt him with silk worms that I’ve ordered.

In the past though his Urates Have been white, but quite hard. Like a solid bit of chalk. Is that ok?

White is what we look for with urates to tell hydration levels. If its hard and no moisture when it comes out that would indicate a hydration intake issue to me.

 

[BugDusty]

White is what we look for with urates to tell hydration levels. If its hard and no moisture when it comes out that would indicate a hydration intake issue to me.

Hello again,

Just thought I’d add that the vet prescribed “Tramadol HCL 20mg/ml Honey Flavoured Oral Solution” - It’s a strong painkiller.
He hasn’t eaten anything since I gave it to him, About a week a go. I’m not sure if that has anything to do with it. I have to give him 0.04ml which is tiny- and very hard to give an accurate measurement. I should think it should be more diluted so as to be easier to administer. I’ve given him 3 doses over the week as I’m just not sure about it.

Also, he just shed the skin from his back leg- not the one that he wasn’t using which was a front one.
Usually when he sheds it’s his whole body- very quickly in a couple of hours. But so far he’s only shed one leg.. though could be why he’s not eating ?! So many variables…

 

[Beman]

Hello again,

Just thought I’d add that the vet prescribed “Tramadol HCL 20mg/ml Honey Flavoured Oral Solution” - It’s a strong painkiller.
He hasn’t eaten anything since I gave it to him, About a week a go. I’m not sure if that has anything to do with it. I have to give him 0.04ml which is tiny- and very hard to give an accurate measurement. I should think it should be more diluted so as to be easier to administer. I’ve given him 3 doses over the week as I’m just not sure about it.

Also, he just shed the skin from his back leg- not the one that he wasn’t using which was a front one.
Usually when he sheds it’s his whole body- very quickly in a couple of hours. But so far he’s only shed one leg.. though could be why he’s not eating ?! So many variables…

The meds can directly impact eating... This is where you run into the do I use it or not. With him being more on the slender side my concern would be going too long without eating. I would not want to see it over 2 weeks personally.

I personally have a hard time with meds and my chams. Some are a have to do thing... And then you have to weigh out the benefits of others. Some can cause appetite issues and some meds can impact renal function. I would be hesitant on using a pain med personally just because you need them to be eating to ensure they are getting the nutrition and calcium to build the bones strong. Again this is my personal opinion on if my cham was prescribed pain meds.

 

[Ghostbirb]

The meds can directly impact eating... This is where you run into the do I use it or not. With him being more on the slender side my concern would be going too long without eating. I would not want to see it over 2 weeks personally.

I personally have a hard time with meds and my chams. Some are a have to do thing... And then you have to weigh out the benefits of others. Some can cause appetite issues and some meds can impact renal function. I would be hesitant on using a pain med personally just because you need them to be eating to ensure they are getting the nutrition and calcium to build the bones strong. Again this is my personal opinion on if my cham was prescribed pain meds.

Interesting I didnt know this

Hello again,

Just thought I’d add that the vet prescribed “Tramadol HCL 20mg/ml Honey Flavoured Oral Solution” - It’s a strong painkiller.
He hasn’t eaten anything since I gave it to him, About a week a go. I’m not sure if that has anything to do with it. I have to give him 0.04ml which is tiny- and very hard to give an accurate measurement. I should think it should be more diluted so as to be easier to administer. I’ve given him 3 doses over the week as I’m just not sure about it.

Also, he just shed the skin from his back leg- not the one that he wasn’t using which was a front one.
Usually when he sheds it’s his whole body- very quickly in a couple of hours. But so far he’s only shed one leg.. though could be why he’s not eating ?! So many variables…

I wish you luck with the medication! I think my girl was prescribed the same thing for her leg. She's been eating well but then again she is a veiled so her appetite is endless.
From another owner with a cham with a hurt leg, I hope your boy heals quickly!!!!!!!