Veiled Chameleon showing signs of lethargy

[Kodyf]

Hello, my 6 month old female veiled chameleon seems to be acting off. I’m not sure if it warrants a vet visit. Let me explain some of the details.
I have decent reptile knowledge and experience.
Her cage is a full screen cage.
Her UVB light is a linear 5.0
Her basking bulb is a 60w daytime bulb
She is fed calcium at every feeding
She is fed reptivite calcium and vitamins with D3 twice a month
She eats 4 large crickets daily gutloaded with carrots and collard greens
Her daily temperature is 75 ambient temperature 85 degree basking. Heat bulb and uvb are placed at 4-8 inches from basking.
She has a large plant safe for ingestion for chameleons.
She runs on 12hr days and 12 hr nights timed.
She gets complete darkness at night and daily cage sanitation.
Her cage is sprayed in the morning after lights turn on and in the evening after lights shut out.
She is offered water in a 24/7 reptile waterfall from petco and hydration from humidity at night and morning.
Her humidity level at night is kept between %80-%90 during the night and between %30-50 during the day.
The issue is recently I have been catching her sleeping during the daytime, small naps but for good time. She never used to sleep in the enclosure during daylight hours, and with my experience it seems off. Both eyes are functional while she is awake and she is alert of her surroundings if noise or movement is noticed from the reptile room. She can climb when she wants to and has an iron grip. She does eat but not her normal appetite. Originally she ate 4 large crickets daily spread between two feeds of 2 large crickets. Recently she will eat 2 large crickets daily but yesterday she ate none at all today she ate 2 and would not go for a second feed. I’ve not seen a change in body weight, no sunken eyes, no signs to indicate respiratory infection, no signs of body/skin damage. Her daily routines have switched from the daily basking for majority of the day to basking for maybe 6 hrs a day and naps in between behind vegetation with eyes closed which is abnormal usually she basks, explores, basks, explores the entirety of the day, that’s her pattern she’s kept for the 2 months I’ve had her. I will attach photos of her in the comments. Anyone have any ideas of what this could be. I am setting an appointment just to be safe for her to be checked tomorrow I do not have a 24/7 reptile vet in my area and I know some things with reptiles can be life or death very shortly, in the meantime does anyone have any suggestions or ideas of what she could be dealing with I could just be an overly worried Cham owner but I know the delicacy of chameleons specifically and when something isn’t like usual it usually isn’t good.

 

[Kodyf]

These are the only photos I can get tonight to least disturb her sleep. Tomorrow when she is awake I will attach more photos and video of what I’m encountering.

 

[Kodyf]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, Female, 6 months old. She has been in my care for 2 months.
• Feeding - 4 large crickets daily spread between 2 feeds gutloaded with leafy greens and carrots.
• Supplements - Repticalcium at every feed, reptivite vitamins and calcium with d3 every 2 weeks.
• Watering - Misting with thrive pump sprayer 4 minutes in the morning 4 minutes in the evening, 24/7 thrive electric pump waterfall.
• Fecal Description - To my knowledge my chameleon has not been tested for parasites, fecal is brown with white on the end.
• History - She has been healthy in my care and been normal up until now.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen
• Lighting - Reptisun 5.0 linear UVB 60 W Daytime incandescent bulb.
• Temperature - Basking 85 degrees measure with digital thermometer probe, ambient temperature during the day is 75, ambient temperature at night is 72 and never drops below 68 this temperature is maintained by a thermostat in the house.
• Humidity - Her cage is misted by a thrive pump sprayer in the morning after the lights turn on and the evening after the light turn off, I do have a fogger that is rarely used only on very dry winter nights. It is measured by a non electric humidity sensor.
• Plants - Ficus Altissima
• Placement - 2 - 3 feet off the ground.
• Location - The border of Kentucky/Indiana.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. I’m so sorry that your pretty girl isn’t doing well. From quick read, your husbandry looks good. I do have a couple of questions and comments though.
Does your ReptiVite contain D3 and then you are also giving calcium with D3?
Her diet and your feeder diet could be improved upon, but that wouldn’t be causing the problems you’re having. I am giving graphics anyhow though.
Get rid of the waterfall. Even when kept as clean as possible, they are still harboring bacteria and just not good. Between misting and humidity boost at night, she’s getting great hydration already.
Parasites could very well be the problem. Definitely make sure to take a fresh fecal sample. You can store one in the fridge for up to 24 hours. If you can’t get one for the visit, ask about dropping off when she goes next.
If she goes next. You have a lot of moss and artificial plants which I find a concern. Our veiled girls love to nibble their plants and it takes only one bite of a fake leaf or mouthful of moss to cause a serious and potentially fatal bowel obstruction. I also have a little concern for the plant that you are using as it isn’t on any of the safe lists. With a panther or other chameleon that doesn’t eat their plants, I’d be more ok with taking chances, but not with veileds. There’s a great list here that even says which are veiled tested.
https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Of course, pothos is the easiest and most loved by keeper and cham alike. If you have a good strong plant light, you could give her a treat with a hibiscus plant. Word of experience though - wash it down to bare root, then wash it again and again and again. Mine always bring in ants and other pests. Schefflera is another that is a great center tall plant. You get the idea…check the list. You can hang your fake plants on the outside to give more privacy.
Basking temp is a tad high. Should be no higher than 80. You do have your basking area a bit too close to your lights though. The ideal distance is 8-9” and that gives the optimal uv index with a T5 5.0 or 6% and it will cool the basking temp down.
She isn’t showing her big girl colors from what I can see, so I don’t believe she’s reached her full maturity and egg laying is playing into things right now.
From what info you’ve provided, I’m thinking parasites or something from the plants - both live and/or fake. It’s not a bad idea to have some blood work done and have her organ function checked and for possible infection.
It’s not easy for most to find a good exotics vet with chameleon experience. Having to drive a bit of a distance is the norm. If you need some help, @elizaann2 has a good list of vets. I do hope you get some answers for your beautiful girl. Do keep us posted on what you learn.

 

[Kodyf]

Hi and welcome. I’m so sorry that your pretty girl isn’t doing well. From quick read, your husbandry looks good. I do have a couple of questions and comments though.
Does your ReptiVite contain D3 and then you are also giving calcium with D3?
Her diet and your feeder diet could be improved upon, but that wouldn’t be causing the problems you’re having. I am giving graphics anyhow though.
Get rid of the waterfall. Even when kept as clean as possible, they are still harboring bacteria and just not good. Between misting and humidity boost at night, she’s getting great hydration already.
Parasites could very well be the problem. Definitely make sure to take a fresh fecal sample. You can store one in the fridge for up to 24 hours. If you can’t get one for the visit, ask about dropping off when she goes next.
If she goes next. You have a lot of moss and artificial plants which I find a concern. Our veiled girls love to nibble their plants and it takes only one bite of a fake leaf or mouthful of moss to cause a serious and potentially fatal bowel obstruction. I also have a little concern for the plant that you are using as it isn’t on any of the safe lists. With a panther or other chameleon that doesn’t eat their plants, I’d be more ok with taking chances, but not with veileds. There’s a great list here that even says which are veiled tested.
https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Of course, pothos is the easiest and most loved by keeper and cham alike. If you have a good strong plant light, you could give her a treat with a hibiscus plant. Word of experience though - wash it down to bare root, then wash it again and again and again. Mine always bring in ants and other pests. Schefflera is another that is a great center tall plant. You get the idea…check the list. You can hang your fake plants on the outside to give more privacy.
Basking temp is a tad high. Should be no higher than 80. You do have your basking area a bit too close to your lights though. The ideal distance is 8-9” and that gives the optimal uv index with a T5 5.0 or 6% and it will cool the basking temp down.
She isn’t showing her big girl colors from what I can see, so I don’t believe she’s reached her full maturity and egg laying is playing into things right now.
From what info you’ve provided, I’m thinking parasites or something from the plants - both live and/or fake. It’s not a bad idea to have some blood work done and have her organ function checked and for possible infection.
It’s not easy for most to find a good exotics vet with chameleon experience. Having to drive a bit of a distance is the norm. If you need some help, @elizaann2 has a good list of vets. I do hope you get some answers for your beautiful girl. Do keep us posted on what you learn.
View attachment 348229View attachment 348230

Thank you for taking the time to reply and give me some insight on what I can do better. The basking bulb may be too close on some parts of the cage so I will be measuring all branches 8’ from the top. She is fed calcium without d3 at every feeding and reptivite with calcium vitamins and d3 twice a month I will be contacting the local vets nearby to get ahold of an exotic vet that’s willing to do a diagnosis, if anyone knows a well known local vet around southern Indiana or northern Kentucky that would be best. I am willing to make a drive if someone has a good recommendation. She hasn’t ever tried to ingest the fake plant or even real plant that I’ve seen but just to be safe I will be removing the fake plants as well as looking for a replacement live plant today. I will also be removing the waterfall as recommended I could see how it could get dirty just in one day of stagnant water. Also I will start to gutload feeders by that guide I was close but missing a few things. I will attach a few more pictures of her today and how she acts while the lights are on.

 

[Kodyf]

This is her today she has been up and about for maybe 2-3 hrs. She does still seem lethargic she never used to even worry about hiding in the vegetation but she does it constantly during the day. Maybe the bulbs were too close to the top of the cage so she takes refuge in the shade under vegetation. Whatever it is I’m going to get to the bottom of it I’ll keep everyone updated once I get her scheduled to be seen.

 

[Kodyf]

Hi and welcome. I’m so sorry that your pretty girl isn’t doing well. From quick read, your husbandry looks good. I do have a couple of questions and comments though.
Does your ReptiVite contain D3 and then you are also giving calcium with D3?
Her diet and your feeder diet could be improved upon, but that wouldn’t be causing the problems you’re having. I am giving graphics anyhow though.
Get rid of the waterfall. Even when kept as clean as possible, they are still harboring bacteria and just not good. Between misting and humidity boost at night, she’s getting great hydration already.
Parasites could very well be the problem. Definitely make sure to take a fresh fecal sample. You can store one in the fridge for up to 24 hours. If you can’t get one for the visit, ask about dropping off when she goes next.
If she goes next. You have a lot of moss and artificial plants which I find a concern. Our veiled girls love to nibble their plants and it takes only one bite of a fake leaf or mouthful of moss to cause a serious and potentially fatal bowel obstruction. I also have a little concern for the plant that you are using as it isn’t on any of the safe lists. With a panther or other chameleon that doesn’t eat their plants, I’d be more ok with taking chances, but not with veileds. There’s a great list here that even says which are veiled tested.
https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Of course, pothos is the easiest and most loved by keeper and cham alike. If you have a good strong plant light, you could give her a treat with a hibiscus plant. Word of experience though - wash it down to bare root, then wash it again and again and again. Mine always bring in ants and other pests. Schefflera is another that is a great center tall plant. You get the idea…check the list. You can hang your fake plants on the outside to give more privacy.
Basking temp is a tad high. Should be no higher than 80. You do have your basking area a bit too close to your lights though. The ideal distance is 8-9” and that gives the optimal uv index with a T5 5.0 or 6% and it will cool the basking temp down.
She isn’t showing her big girl colors from what I can see, so I don’t believe she’s reached her full maturity and egg laying is playing into things right now.
From what info you’ve provided, I’m thinking parasites or something from the plants - both live and/or fake. It’s not a bad idea to have some blood work done and have her organ function checked and for possible infection.
It’s not easy for most to find a good exotics vet with chameleon experience. Having to drive a bit of a distance is the norm. If you need some help, @elizaann2 has a good list of vets. I do hope you get some answers for your beautiful girl. Do keep us posted on what you learn.
View attachment 348229View attachment 348230

Also it is very dry where I am at right now that is why the tropical moss was implemented to retain the humidity, it is temporary for the winter and will be removed when humidity isn’t struck out of the cage by the dry winter. I don’t cover any sides of my cage for the most perfect ventilation and to recreate the most natural humidity I use the moss sprayed then fog the center mass of her cage and the moss for 5hrs I just spray the moss at the bottom and the few spots I have around the top to hold the humidity while their is full ventilation of the cage.

 

[Beman]

Hi there you have already received a lot of information. May I get a picture of her entire set up with lighting on top so I can view everything?

Additionally this baby is small for a 6 month old. She is not getting enough food and large crickets would be too large for her size. How are you determining her age? And have you confirmed gender?

What is the genuine night time temps your getting. If this is staying at 70 and hotter than fogging is not recommended. You really want to hit temps below 68 for fogging. Heat and fog can create an environment in which they develop respiratory infections.

Could you take pics of the supplement labels for me as well?

 

[elizaann2]

Hello and welcome! @MissSkittles and @Beman have given you some great information. You are in great hands with them! Attached you will find a vet list, as Miss Skittles mentioned earlier.

 

[Kodyf]

Thank you for all your help and support, I was able to find a reptile vet and scheduled an appointment for Iris to be seen tomorrow. She has not shown any signs of improvement, her husbandry was changed thanks to the helpful information you guys have provided. I will be uploading a picture shortly of her poop and I am collecting it for it to be analyzed. My veiled is on her 6th shed so she is roughly 5 1/2 months old. She does handle large crickets just fine and they are not even close to the size between her eyes. Her diet was weined from small to large crickets a little after I got her at 3-4 months old. I will also provide pictures of my supplements.

 

[Kodyf]

The compact uvb bulb was removed from the dual head shortly after purchasing her and yes “the death kit” that I regret but have made it manageable until I purchase the correct size screen cage which will be purchased shortly I’ve given her some time in this one since she is still small. This is how she has been acting recently during the day I didn’t get a good look at her eyes to see if she had them opened but I don’t like to bother her much especially during this time of odd stress.

 

[Kodyf]

Here is photos of fecal. Now I get to collect the roses for the vet! @Beman I have confirmed she is a female because she does not have spurs on the feet and by the cask/head shape. The fogger is used rarely only on very dry nights and as said before their are no walls all screen so no stagnant air/warm fog to collect/carry bacteria that would cause a RI, I do not think it is a RI but I’m not a vet.

 

[elizaann2]

I'm so glad you found a vet! Let us know how it goes!

 

[elizaann2]

I'm not sure if you know this or not but make sure that the poop is a fresh sample, double bag it in some sandwich baggies and then you can store it in your fridge for up to 24 hours. Just make sure you squeeze all the air out of the bags so the poop doesn't dry out. You don't need the white (urate) part for the fecal test

Best of luck!

 

[Kodyf]

I'm not sure if you know this or not but make sure that the poop is a fresh sample, double bag it in some sandwich baggies and then you can store it in your fridge for up to 24 hours. Just make sure you squeeze all the air out of the bags so the poop doesn't dry out. You don't need the white (urate) part for the fecal test

Best of luck!

I found it when I got home an hour ago after changing the husbandry this morning, so maybe it has dried from the bask bulb a bit but is the freshest sample I’ll have to offer the vet tomorrow.

 

[elizaann2]

I found it when I got home an hour ago after changing the husbandry this morning, so maybe it has dried from the bask bulb a bit but is the freshest sample I’ll have to offer the vet tomorrow.

Its worth a shot. Check her enclosure again before the vet, hopefully she will poop for you again.

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

I found it when I got home an hour ago after changing the husbandry this morning, so maybe it has dried from the bask bulb a bit but is the freshest sample I’ll have to offer the vet tomorrow.

I over feed the day before a vet visit to get a fresh sample. I would offer an additional feeding as soon as possible.

 

[Kodyf]

I will try to feed to get another sample but she isn’t a big fan of eating right now. I’m really just hoping for the best until tomorrow I know she isn’t life or death YET but these things develop quickly I will post an update of our vet visit tomorrow

 

[Kodyf]

I did buy her a new deep dome fixture in hopes that would help the basking area and once the light was put into the deep dome fixture it seems the basking area is more intense but she is seeming more energetic and basking regularly since I placed it in their this evening. Maybe the dual light fixture from the infamous death kit is also just like the rest of the junk they sold me.

 

[Beman]

Thank you for all your help and support, I was able to find a reptile vet and scheduled an appointment for Iris to be seen tomorrow. She has not shown any signs of improvement, her husbandry was changed thanks to the helpful information you guys have provided. I will be uploading a picture shortly of her poop and I am collecting it for it to be analyzed. My veiled is on her 6th shed so she is roughly 5 1/2 months old. She does handle large crickets just fine and they are not even close to the size between her eyes. Her diet was weined from small to large crickets a little after I got her at 3-4 months old. I will also provide pictures of my supplements.

So their shedding does not equal their age. Babies can shed multiple times in a month if they are growing quickly. I asked about her age because casque height and her size is not equivalent of a 6 month old female. Depending on where you got her from she could have been much younger than you are thinking. With females we feed them as much as they want the first 7-8 months of their life before starting the reduction process. When you say large crickets these would be an inch long if you are ordering from normal suppliers. Which size wise for this small of a chameleon would be too large. You risk regurgitation with large feeders that are too big for them to fully chew and get down. Now if you have only been giving 4 feeders daily this could account for her smaller size. She would not be reaching her growth potential due to the decreased food intake.

The compact uvb bulb was removed from the dual head shortly after purchasing her and yes “the death kit” that I regret but have made it manageable until I purchase the correct size screen cage which will be purchased shortly I’ve given her some time in this one since she is still small. This is how she has been acting recently during the day I didn’t get a good look at her eyes to see if she had them opened but I don’t like to bother her much especially during this time of odd stress.

Is the linear Uvb a T8 or T5HO these two are very different in output levels. So they would require different distances if it is a T8 then a 5.0 would not be putting out the UVB she needs at the distance to basking branches she is at.

Here is photos of fecal. Now I get to collect the roses for the vet! @Beman I have confirmed she is a female because she does not have spurs on the feet and by the cask/head shape. The fogger is used rarely only on very dry nights and as said before their are no walls all screen so no stagnant air/warm fog to collect/carry bacteria that would cause a RI, I do not think it is a RI but I’m not a vet.

With fogging you have no risk of an RI developing if the temps are not low enough. At 70-72 you are running a risk. It does not matter if the air circulation is good if there is warm air and moisture this is where they end up developing an RI. You would know if this was the case. It starts out most typically with them holding their nose up and gapping trying to breathe. There is also the risk of RI from bacteria. If your cage is holding bacteria from the moss being in it then this could be a risk.

The repti calcium you are using is without D3 version correct?

You said she has not wanted to eat. Which with the moss the concern would be impaction. Moss being in the cage could be the culprit if she has an impaction.

Note not all reptile vets know chameleons. With the supplements she is on do not let them give her a vitamin shot. This can cause an overdose and shut down her system especially in her current state of decline.

Double check her temps you want no hotter than 80 at the branch. Too hot and chams this young will actually dehydrate.

Best of luck at the vet. Hope they can help.