cambech
New Member
A little more improvement today. She's moving a little more. I saw her completely swallow for the first time since Monday. There's still hope.
this is good! She's a fighter.
Help! She's Dying!
- Thread starter kgallego
- Start date
this is good! She's a fighter.
kgallego
Member
Day #6 - she's looking less dehydrated, and she's gaining some of her color back. Eye's are still shut and sunk in, but still showing improvement.
Anybody have a good suggestion of some liquid calories that might be helpful for her??? She's currently getting pedialyte, water, and vitamins.
Anybody have a good suggestion of some liquid calories that might be helpful for her??? She's currently getting pedialyte, water, and vitamins.
bugboy
Established Member
It took a lot of courage for me to post this, so I hope I won't be condemned for it. I feel like I'm already dousing myself with gasoline and waiting for someone to light the match haha.
The fact that she acts aggressively, as it seems from the last pic, looks like she is truly a fighter. And from what you've posted last, concerning her color, she sounds like she's possibly making a comeback. Now, if this were MY animal, she would have been put down already. Closed and sunken eyes, the fact that she seems to be unable to firmly grip even a towel; it just seems like you are prolonging the inevitable. Now remember, I am not out to bash anyone, as I hope you'll remember from my original post. No one likes to see their animals go down so fast and quick, not even myself. It's just my personal opinion, that if they are this far gone, it's better to get it over with than to spend so much time trying to bring them back from what looks to be a death sentence. If anyone watches American Dad, this is one of my favorite quotes, because it really does make so much sense haha. He tries saving his dying dog, by turning it into an absolute monster. Then has a dream with his old dog, who tells him (something to the effect of): "If we can't run and play and do all that other crap we like to do, then what's the point?" I'll give you an example of my own experience; my female jackson, at what I assume was around 2 1/2 years of age, was perfectly healthy one day, and then started hanging around on the cage floor. I would pick her up and place her on a branch, assuming she had just fallen. Well, it happened again and again over the course of a week or two. She would eat, but her legs were shot, so she couldn't chase prey down even if she wanted to. Sure she would move around, but the fact that she couldn't even pull herself up onto a branch for an extended period caused me to believe that it was just going to get worse from there. We all know how fragile these animals are. With my experience with chams, I made the decision that it was just a matter of time before it would get worse, but more importantly less comfortable for her, and I reluctantly decided to have her euthanized. And before anyone calls me a heartless monster, the woman who was doing the procedure (who I've known for years and am very fond of, very nice lady) pulled this animal from my hands, as she could tell from how I was talking how reluctant I was to go through with it. But I can't say I made the wrong decision, she passed peacefully, instead of weeks of suffering not being able to "do what she likes to do."
I'm not saying to discontinue what you're doing now, as I truly applaude your willingness to bring her back from near-death. I'm just expressing my opinion and experiences, as I said, from your description of her behaviour and the colors she is displaying from the last pic, she unfortunately sounds like she is getting close to the end. An updated picture would be great, as I could see what she looks like now and if she does look good, then maybe there's hope for her and you can shove what I said right back into my face haha. In all seriousness, good luck to the both of you. I'll keep checking back to see how both of you are doing.
The fact that she acts aggressively, as it seems from the last pic, looks like she is truly a fighter. And from what you've posted last, concerning her color, she sounds like she's possibly making a comeback. Now, if this were MY animal, she would have been put down already. Closed and sunken eyes, the fact that she seems to be unable to firmly grip even a towel; it just seems like you are prolonging the inevitable. Now remember, I am not out to bash anyone, as I hope you'll remember from my original post. No one likes to see their animals go down so fast and quick, not even myself. It's just my personal opinion, that if they are this far gone, it's better to get it over with than to spend so much time trying to bring them back from what looks to be a death sentence. If anyone watches American Dad, this is one of my favorite quotes, because it really does make so much sense haha. He tries saving his dying dog, by turning it into an absolute monster. Then has a dream with his old dog, who tells him (something to the effect of): "If we can't run and play and do all that other crap we like to do, then what's the point?" I'll give you an example of my own experience; my female jackson, at what I assume was around 2 1/2 years of age, was perfectly healthy one day, and then started hanging around on the cage floor. I would pick her up and place her on a branch, assuming she had just fallen. Well, it happened again and again over the course of a week or two. She would eat, but her legs were shot, so she couldn't chase prey down even if she wanted to. Sure she would move around, but the fact that she couldn't even pull herself up onto a branch for an extended period caused me to believe that it was just going to get worse from there. We all know how fragile these animals are. With my experience with chams, I made the decision that it was just a matter of time before it would get worse, but more importantly less comfortable for her, and I reluctantly decided to have her euthanized. And before anyone calls me a heartless monster, the woman who was doing the procedure (who I've known for years and am very fond of, very nice lady) pulled this animal from my hands, as she could tell from how I was talking how reluctant I was to go through with it. But I can't say I made the wrong decision, she passed peacefully, instead of weeks of suffering not being able to "do what she likes to do."
I'm not saying to discontinue what you're doing now, as I truly applaude your willingness to bring her back from near-death. I'm just expressing my opinion and experiences, as I said, from your description of her behaviour and the colors she is displaying from the last pic, she unfortunately sounds like she is getting close to the end. An updated picture would be great, as I could see what she looks like now and if she does look good, then maybe there's hope for her and you can shove what I said right back into my face haha. In all seriousness, good luck to the both of you. I'll keep checking back to see how both of you are doing.
kgallego
Member
Bugboy - Unfortunately, you are correct. She died last night. Her color change from black back to pink, and her increased movement and attitude, gave me hope. It must have been a last ditch effort from her.
If this happens again I'll put the cham down. If nothing else good can come of this, at least it was a learning experience for the future. Not to do the grewsome work of trying to figure out what went wrong.
If this happens again I'll put the cham down. If nothing else good can come of this, at least it was a learning experience for the future. Not to do the grewsome work of trying to figure out what went wrong.
kgallego
Member
Thanks Chris.
kgallego
Member
Necropsy Results:
I found something interesting. I'm no vet, but I have been an avid hunter and fisherman all my life, so I'm very familiar with anatomy and how things are supposed to look inside.
I checked all of her organs. They all appeared to be normal, no discoloration, scar tissue, anything. I removed 27 eggs also - all in tact, and appeared to be full term. I cleaned them up and am going to see if they are any good.
What I did find, was a tumor in her abdomen. It was the size of about 3 cham eggs, or approximately the size of a large jelly bean. It was covered in veins and full of a clear to white murky fluid. Connected to it were about 6 smaller tumors about 1/4 the size of a cham egg.
Anyone seen this before?
Thanks,
Kelsey
I found something interesting. I'm no vet, but I have been an avid hunter and fisherman all my life, so I'm very familiar with anatomy and how things are supposed to look inside.
I checked all of her organs. They all appeared to be normal, no discoloration, scar tissue, anything. I removed 27 eggs also - all in tact, and appeared to be full term. I cleaned them up and am going to see if they are any good.
What I did find, was a tumor in her abdomen. It was the size of about 3 cham eggs, or approximately the size of a large jelly bean. It was covered in veins and full of a clear to white murky fluid. Connected to it were about 6 smaller tumors about 1/4 the size of a cham egg.
Anyone seen this before?
Thanks,
Kelsey
Last edited:
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
I think that if you post a photo of it under a new thread (with a graphic warning in the title, please, for those that are squeamish) our forum vets would love to check it out and give you their thoughts. I know I'd love to see it, just out of curiosity, but I wouldn't be able to tell you very much about it.
Hi Kelsey, first off I'm so sorry for your loss. You literally did everything you could for her and gave her every opportunity to pull out of this. I didn't comment before because unfortunately I knew what the outcome would be. She was 'rallying', which is always so frustrating because it gives the impression of hope and then they ultimately still crash and burn. It happens in a lot of exotic species especially, and sometimes even dogs and cats where they do much better for a few days but then die like they looked like they would earlier. Every once and a while you get a survivor, but not often. I'm so glad you did the necropsy to know why though! And to see that no matter what you did you could not have fought the effects of a tumor. Was it attached to anything - another organ or around the eggs? If you don't want to post pictures you can email them to me instead. I'd love to see and try to give you some more answers as to what it may have been. Also I love to see unusual anatomy in case I see something like it in the future. Most of the time it's impossible to know without sending it to the lab for analysis but sometimes we can get some good ideas by seeing it. I am so very sorry for your loss. At least she was in the care of a devoted, caring owner who did everything you possibly could for her.
kgallego
Member
Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture. I was in a mad rush this morning to get to work. I probably could have put her in the freezer - but my wife would have had a fit!
It wasn't connected to the liver directly, but it was connected to the liver by a thick mucus. It clearly didn't belong inside her. You could tell that it was definitely out of place.
I should have taken pictures.
As lovereps said, they as susceptible to tumors and other problems just like other species. Generally you don't see any many tumors in most reptiles fortunately but I've seen them. In a gravid female I'm always suspicious of a reproductive problem though. If a follicle got separated and migrated through the abdominal cavity it could end up anywhere and could have caused a local inflammatory response known as peritonitis. Sometimes it will affect the entire abdominal cavity, but if it was small then the body could have tried to wall it off, kind of like how a pearl is made. But walling it off with inflammatory cells is still irritating and can potentially affect the whole body through the blood stream. This would be my best guess given that it wasn't part of any internal organ and given her reproductive status. Some parasites can get walled off like that too. Less likely to be a parasitic response if she wasn't wild caught but always possible. It's hard to say without a full analysis of the abnormal mass. And even harder to speculate without a good picture unfortunately. If it was a reproductive mishap there is nothing you could have done short of surgery when she was healthy enough to survive it (often before they show symptoms unfortunately). The amount or frequency of breeding does not affect it as it can happen in females never bred as well. The thing to remember is that you did everything you could and there was probably nothing anyone could have done differently to prevent this sad outcome given what you saw internally.
kgallego
Member
Thanks - it's still depressing that this happened considering all the time and care I've put into her. That's life though. Gotta take the bad with the good.
Similar threads
