Help! She's Dying!

[Kath44]

What's done is done and the main thing is this Cham gets the help she needs. Which I think the OP is doing.
She looks really dehydrated so see if you can get some water into her and good luck at the vets.
Kath.

 

[ChamMan7]

Let me clarify a few things ChamMan7: I bred her in July 2013. She was 1 year old at that time (technically she is 20 months old). She laid her first clutch in late August. I did not breed her again. She laid her second clutch in late November. I did not breed her again. She laid her third clutch in late February. I bred her the Second time in mid March. She has technically only be "Bred" twice, but she's pregnant with her 4th clutch of eggs. I don't know if you can call it "Power Breeding" if she has 3 clutches after being bred once.?.?.?

I get the gist that you think I have been irresponsible with her - which is incorrect. I waited until she was 1 year old before breeding her, and didn't put a male in with her a second time until 8 months later.

I'm asking for help from the Chameleon Community on advice to save this poor girls life. I don't care for your judgmental BS right now. If you have something to say helpful, then I'd love to hear it. If you're on here to criticize, please feel free to exercise your right to remain silent.

If you had said that before then things would be different. If you say she is 1.5 years old and has laid four clutches over the past 9 months that would indicate she was 6 months old at the time of first breeding. Don't expect people to be mind readers. If you says she's 1.5 years old then people are going to assume...… that she is 1.5 years old. The best advice has been given to you, take her to the vet, which you are doing so more power to you. Glad that you are taking that advice.

 

[Carlton]

What's done is done and the main thing is this Cham gets the help she needs. Which I think the OP is doing.
She looks really dehydrated so see if you can get some water into her and good luck at the vets.
Kath.

This is a lot more than dehydration. When a cham is crashing like she is the symptoms can seem the same as severe dehydration. She looks completely depleted and burned out after all those clutches. If I had a cham who produced so many clutches after a single breeding I wouldn't have bred her again for at least a year. She gave everything. Poor little thing.

 

[cambech]

This is a lot more than dehydration. When a cham is crashing like she is the symptoms can seem the same as severe dehydration. She looks completely depleted and burned out after all those clutches. Poor little thing.

I agree. He needs to get calories and calcium back into her as fast as possible and I hope it's not too late.

 

[kgallego]

What's done is done and the main thing is this Cham gets the help she needs. Which I think the OP is doing.
She looks really dehydrated so see if you can get some water into her and good luck at the vets.
Kath.

I was thinking the same. If you look closely on the pic's you'll see that I tried to get her to drink.

 

[kgallego]

If you had said that before then things would be different. If you say she is 1.5 years old and has laid four clutches over the past 9 months that would indicate she was 6 months old at the time of first breeding. Don't expect people to be mind readers. If you says she's 1.5 years old then people are going to assume...… that she is 1.5 years old. The best advice has been given to you, take her to the vet, which you are doing so more power to you. Glad that you are taking that advice.

Check your math. 1.5 years minus 9 months is 9 months, not 6.
She's technically 1.75 years old - 1.5 was an approximation.

The point is to get her well.

 

[kgallego]

This is a lot more than dehydration. When a cham is crashing like she is the symptoms can seem the same as severe dehydration. She looks completely depleted and burned out after all those clutches. If I had a cham who produced so many clutches after a single breeding I wouldn't have bred her again for at least a year. She gave everything. Poor little thing.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that she's worn out from egg clutches. She was perfectly healthy 3 days ago. Whatever is wrong with her came up suddenly, not gradually.

 

[kgallego]

I'm sure the severe dehydration is the result of what is wrong with her. Not the cause.

 

[kinyonga]

Kgallego...I tend to agree with you that the look of dehydration is a result not a cause. Hat being said, I can't tell you what's wrong with her only that something is. How many days ago was she bred?

IMHO she really needs to see a vet fast is you want to have a chance of saving her.

 

[Carlton]

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that she's worn out from egg clutches. She was perfectly healthy 3 days ago. Whatever is wrong with her came up suddenly, not gradually.

Then, if it was this sudden and severe, possibly something like a ruptured ovary, adhesions from retained or malformed egg follicles or some other injury that could result in sterile peritonitis. The only way to know is to get some sort of scan soft tissues will show up on.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

What I get feeling for, after digesting this tread is... Female looks too far gone from pictures, for a come back. A vet can xray, and check for any issues with eggs inside. I would check last male she was with for internal parasites/worms. To see if transmission of disease took place during mating.

Is this a different Male, or same from females first pairing?

If new male gave her something, plus stress of reproduction could of over taxed the female.

Also it's circle of life/nature kinda thing. She has passed on her genes to next generation (something panthers and veils do so good, is play odds on number of eggs made, not number of years lived) and produced offspring already. In a cosmic life gos on kinda way.

 

[kgallego]

For the record - The vet didn't think that this was a reproduction issue. She also doesn't think that she has been bred too frequently.

Kgallego...I tend to agree with you that the look of dehydration is a result not a cause. Hat being said, I can't tell you what's wrong with her only that something is. How many days ago was she bred?

IMHO she really needs to see a vet fast is you want to have a chance of saving her.

She was bred 4 weeks ago. The vet also agrees with me and you that the dehydration was the result and not the cause.

Then, if it was this sudden and severe, possibly something like a ruptured ovary, adhesions from retained or malformed egg follicles or some other injury that could result in sterile peritonitis. The only way to know is to get some sort of scan soft tissues will show up on.

The vet thinks that she has a liver infection based on her symptoms, the sudden deterioration, and the color of her mouth.

What I get feeling for, after digesting this tread is... Female looks too far gone from pictures, for a come back. A vet can xray, and check for any issues with eggs inside. I would check last male she was with for internal parasites/worms. To see if transmission of disease took place during mating.

Is this a different Male, or same from females first pairing?

If new male gave her something, plus stress of reproduction could of over taxed the female.

Also it's circle of life/nature kinda thing. She has passed on her genes to next generation (something panthers and veils do so good, is play odds on number of eggs made, not number of years lived) and produced offspring already. In a cosmic life gos on kinda way.

SSimsswiSS, thank you for your response, which was well thought out just as your responses always are.

This was her second pairing with the same male. All of my cham's are free of parasites and worms. I periodically take fecal samples to the vet for evaluation. I never have had a parasite issue, and whenever I add a new member to my collection, I immediately have them checked for parasites.

 

[kinyonga]

You can't base a liver infection on the colorful so panther chameleon's mouth IMHO....it's usually yellow.

I also don't think you bred her too often or that four clutches of eggs in a row is necessarily too much. How big were the clutches.

 

[kgallego]

You can't base a liver infection on the colorful so panther chameleon's mouth IMHO....it's usually yellow.

I also don't think you bred her too often or that four clutches of eggs in a row is necessarily too much. How big were the clutches.

She took all things into account, and she wouldn't say it was 100% certain. She did however say that it could be a number of things.

One thing for certain was that she didn't see any indication that it was a reproductive issue after examining the x-rays and symptoms like the conclusion that was jumped to by alot these folks who commented on here.

(Not attacking you kinyonga, just venting my frustrations)

It seems that everyone who owns a chameleon, and has read a little bit on chameleon keeping seems to think that they are an expert and feel the urge to jump to conclusions. It drives me crazy when they start attacking me with nothing to stand on but pure ignorance, and forget the point is to help a chameleon.

 

[azn567]

I have also had this experience, where a seemingly healthy female takes a downward spiral in only a couple days. In my experience, I would also say that she will not make it, although I can not say what the cause for this condition is exactly.

 

[kgallego]

I have also had this experience, where a seemingly healthy female takes a downward spiral in only a couple days. In my experience, I would also say that she will not make it, although I can not say what the cause for this condition is exactly.

Very interesting. This was crazy. She was in great health on Saturday, now she's about to be dead on Tuesday. I just wish I had an answer for it. Never have I seen this happen before with any of my chameleons - panthers and beyond.

She's definitely not going to make it. She's already turning black.

 

[xraygirl]

I hate that it's happening to her, I think panther females are the sweetest thing.... But as a newbie, the females unpredictable health turns made me into the typical newbie by getting a male... But I have learned quite a bit from reading this thread, as tragic as it is.

I have a sweet spot for the girls, I just love their sweet faces.

Best wishes to you and your little gal!

 

[xraygirl]

Very interesting. This was crazy. She was in great health on Saturday, now she's about to be dead on Tuesday. I just wish I had an answer for it. Never have I seen this happen before with any of my chameleons - panthers and beyond.

She's definitely not going to make it. She's already turning black.

Poor baby. Are you going to do a necropsy report?

 

[kgallego]

Kgallego...I tend to agree with you that the look of dehydration is a result not a cause. Hat being said, I can't tell you what's wrong with her only that something is. How many days ago was she bred?

IMHO she really needs to see a vet fast is you want to have a chance of saving her.

Then, if it was this sudden and severe, possibly something like a ruptured ovary, adhesions from retained or malformed egg follicles or some other injury that could result in sterile peritonitis. The only way to know is to get some sort of scan soft tissues will show up on.

No, I don't think I'll gain anything by cutting her open. I'll just call it a tragedy and move on.

 

[Olimpia]

Very interesting. This was crazy. She was in great health on Saturday, now she's about to be dead on Tuesday. I just wish I had an answer for it. Never have I seen this happen before with any of my chameleons - panthers and beyond.

She's definitely not going to make it. She's already turning black.

That's why I thought something must have gone really wrong very suddenly, like a rupture of something, or a blockage. With her being gravid I assumed that was the body system most likely to experience a problem of some sort, but the vet should know if they see anything or not on the scans. I was hoping she could be saved, so I'm sorry that she doesn't seem like she will. A necropsy would be the best way to know for sure what went wrong.