Help Please... Veiled Chameleon Female

[Kitdragon2000]

Hey guys,

I don’t know what to do… everyone is sick and now my chameleons are not well.
Please before anyone says / yells at me for not taking her to the vet, my vet is out of town, and none of the others around here are any good. Iv tried.

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon – Female, Veiled, 8mo old, iv had her for 4 (I think…)
• Handling – once a day, usually transfer from one cage to another. Lately I know my girl has not been feeling well so I check her and make sure nothing else has changed… hence this post. ☹
• Feeding – offering crickets and phoenix worms. Trying to make sure she eats good / calcium rich things. The crickets are getting the mix that was posted on the forum earlier.. (sorry cant find the link atm. I also am giving the orange cubes vigorously dusted with calcium as an additional calcium source. (Just Calcium WITHOUT D3)
• Supplements – Exo-terra Calcium w/o D3 & multi vitamin / fluker’s calcium w/ d3
o (Calcium daily. Multi & d3 every other week.)
• Watering – I have a monsoon that is SUPPOSED to run 6x a day for 20 sec. at night it is off.
• Fecal Description – Not tested for parasites, we have been moving them into a new cage and have not seen any within the last few days…
• History – she has / had MBD, was not severe, just affected her legs that we saw. Changed uvb bulb, outside at Least 8 hours a day in a screen cage. Changed the supplement schedule as well. A few days ago it looked as if she broke her knee, vet agreed. So have been keeping in a small cage, branches close to the ground, phoenix worms in a small dish and fat, slower crickets.

Cage Info:
• Cage Type – Screen. When they are better I have 2 repti-breeze x-large, (2ft x 2ft x 4 fth). The female is in the repti-breeze small.
• Lighting – UVB each, 2 hours am & pm. In between they are outside in ca sun with shade. Small ceramic heater at night if its going to get to low.
• Temperature – Basking spot: 85 , Mid: 79 , Bottom: 75. At night I don’t let it get below 65
• Humidity – humidity is measured by a gauge for the home. Lowest humidity is 70% goes up from there depending on the day, (we are in the bay area of CA)
• Plants – A few fake vines, Live draconas, as well as a vine & small fern that was okayed (cant remember name at the time.)
• Placement – cage inside is in the office, which has very few people / animals. Usually its just me 2x a day, and cats to use the litter box.
• Location – East bay, CA

Current Problem – She’s not balancing well. She’s still having trouble with the leg that was broken, but now her other leg isn’t working right either. She does still have an appetite, will still eat phoenix worms from my fingers. I noticed the legs today, as well as she has a large… almost fluid filled thing on her neck. But it comes and goes. She also has been having her mouth open recently, and its not hot….

Again Please do not yell at me to go to a vet. My vet it not here, none of the others around here are good, and the few I could find in sac are to expensive with everything else going on in my home. I just, would like opinions and ideas to make sure she at least doesn’t get any worse…

https://imageshack.com/a/4CWz/1 - recent photos of her (today)

 

[Kath44]

Does she have a laying bin? It's possible she has eggs. Did the vet give extra calcium to her in an injection form or liquid for her mbd?
Kath.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

Vet didnt feel an injection was needed with the little bit she was showing, just changing / uping supplements. she has a laying bin of sand, as well as potted plants, with good soil. have not seen her digging in either.

I was concerned that she laid weird eggs, i found a lot of weird little things, If you go through the album i posted, people thought it was fertilizer, all the fertilizer i have dealt with has white hard fertilizer, or small fragile yellow round balls. so i dissected it just today, have not put it on the forum with regards to it yet.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

Heres one of the mouth open, she's doing that a LOT today ... https://imageshack.com/i/eyq3k8YEj

Here's one of the lump thingy on her neck that comes and goes... though at times i think she is uncomfortable? .... https://imageshack.com/i/iqhgSQAbj

Laying bin .... https://imageshack.com/i/kmqdLcwfj

these were before i picked the weird things up.... https://imageshack.com/i/ipCDRet4j

 

[kinyonga]

Im very concerned with your chameleon but I but im not sure what's going on with her. Sadly she is in serious trouble IMHO...the mouth being open a lot is indicating this as well as the leg issues and the edema. Any one thing by its self would have been less urgent. The swelling is likely edema. I know you said your vet is away but she really needs a vet to solve these problems and I don't think she has a lot of time to wait...sorry I can't give you a better answer.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

i know... i just.... any suggestions at all? ill put this on here now, i know you are not a vet, or if you are a vet you can not legally give me suggestions over the internet...

i was a vet tech for 8 years, (stopped 2 years ago for health reasons.) so i understand a bit.... please any suggestions.

 

[kinyonga]

Did you give her liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate to help with the MBD? What specific supplements have you been using...I'm particularly interested in the D3 and vitamin A and what the vitamin A source is. Also what do you gutload the insects with?

Did those "eggs" have anything in them or were they hollow? We're they rubbery or solid?

 

[Kitdragon2000]

i did not give her anything, just changed the supplements to calcium (without D3) every day, and every other week multi vitamin and d3

calcium & multi-vitamin are both manufactured by exo terra
calcium w/ d3 manufactured by flukers

they have live plants, but none have been eaten that i can see. i just checked. all look well.

insects are getting >> https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/835-simple-gutload-bug-food.html << they were just started on it a few days ago though. before that was feeding flukers orange cubes.

the eggs had funky grey almost tacky fluid in them... heres a pic i took.. https://imageshack.com/i/p2aLsJraj

 

[Kitdragon2000]

im assuming she is partly dehydrated by her eyes, i did the (cant remember / find the actual word >.<) the skin snap test, that actually was normal response...

https://imageshack.com/i/kqdqv4q5j <her today. couple hours ago.

I was able to at least get a hold of my vet, so i am talking to her as well, she does say she is unable to get to the internet where she goes onto a certain website for suggestions whenever i bring my pack in... so she said ask on here too... (not here specifically. online.)

 

[kinyonga]

I think I told you before that the imbalance has to be corrected by giving her liquid calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough. At the same time you still continue the regular supplement schedule of phosphorous - free calcium powder at most feedings and phosphorous - free calcium D3 powder twice a month and a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A twice a month.

Phosphorous, calcium, vitamin A, vitamin D3 are all important in bone health and need to be in balance. This isnthe reason why I asked for specifics.

I feed/gutload the crickets, superworms, roaches, locusts, etc with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc. And veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

The eggs are very tiny for chameleon eggs....can't be sure what they are.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

im still looking through the eggs if they are eggs. im trying to find an image of the insides of a slow release fertilizer...

i apologize, you did mention the liquid calcium, i think i got distracted by everything else... the vet was unsure of the dose, what do you suggest? though she did suggest a 1/4 tum crushed into a slurry to give to her along with a warm shower...

do you think that is enough calcium in the tums?

 

[Kitdragon2000]

so i have the supplements right now though?

 

[sharp229]

Their eyes can sink in for any serious issue, not just dehydration, so it is probably something else if she is getting enough water. Opening mouth can also be a sign of various health problems, it doesn't look like RI in this case since there doesn't seem to be lots of mucous.

I honestly am not sure what that ball is. It looks like it could be a fertilizer ball that either absorbed moisture or has liquid or gel in its center, but I have only used osmocote and it doesn't look like that. If those are eggs I haven't seen any that looked like that online, but I also don't know what is inside them at an early stage.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

yeah im like you sharp. iv only used the orange balls, and the harder substances.

i know with rodents respitory infections can be helped by having them in the room with a hot shower running, much like a kid. but with chameleons there is already so much humidity. what do i do? ill look up RI as well.

 

[kinyonga]

You aren't giving her the liquid calcium...so no...they aren't right to treat mbd...and since I still don't know what's in them in the way of phosphorous, D3, vitamin A and calcium I don't know if the regular schedule is right either....and you have to be able to take what's in the insect food into consideration too.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

okay. i will try and get that information for you right now, since i have everything here. sorry didnt realize exactly what you were asking.

 

[Kitdragon2000]

Exo terra Calcium:

North America
Ingredients:

Calcium carbonate, oyster shell flour, salt, calcium sulfate, potassium chloride, ferrous fumarate, magnesium oxide, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate.
Guaranteed Analysis:

Moisture (max) 12.0% Magnesium (min) 0.03%
Calcium (min) 35.0% Sulfur (min) 0.04%
Calcium (max) 37.0% Iron (min) 240 ppm
Salt (min) 0.06% Zinc (min) 9 ppm
Salt (max) 0.07% Manganese (min) 5 ppm
Potassium (min) 0.04% Copper (min) 2 ppm
EU
Ingredients:

Calcium carbonate (35%), ground oyster shells, salt.
Contains EU permitted additives
EU Typical Analysis:
Calcium 35.0% Iron 240 mg/kg
Sodium 700 mg/kg Zinc 9 mg/kg
Potassium 400 mg/kg Manganese 5 mg/kg
Magnesium 300 mg/kg Copper
(as Copper sulphate) 2 mg/kg
Sulfur 400 mg/kg



Exo terra multi vitamin:

North America
Ingredients:

Dried seaweed meal, dried yeast, oyster shell flour, dextrose, beta-carotene, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), biotin, inositol, choline chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, manganese oxide, ferrous fumarate, calcium sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, potassium iodate.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 14.0% Copper 2.5 ppm
Crude Fat (min) 1.2% Zinc 6.5 ppm
Crude Fiber (max) 8.0% Iodine 0.75 ppm
Moisture (max) 12.0% Manganese 6.5 ppm
Ash (max) 9.0% Choline 81.44 mg/lb
Calcium (min) 4.4% Menadione 0.907 mg/lb
Calcium (max) 4.6% Biotin 0.004 mg/lb
Salt (max) 0.00275% Inositol 4.989 mg/lb
Potassium (min) 0.0033% Beta Carotene 4.082 mg/lb
Sulfur (min) 0.011% Vitamin D3 9,979 IU/lb
Magnesium 2 ppm Vitamin E 45.3 IU/lb
Iron 77 ppm
EU
Ingredients:

Dried seaweed, dried yeast, ground oyster shell, dextrose, salt, calcium carbonate.
Contains EU permitted additives.
EU Typical Analysis:

Protein 20%, Oils and Fats 1,2%, Fibre 4%, Ash 9%, Copper (as copper sulphate) 2,5mg/kg.
EU Vitamin Statement:

Vitamin A 90,000 mcg, Vitamin D3 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E 100mg/kg.
Vitamin Statement Guaranteed until Best Before Date. For Best Before Date and Batch Code see base of container.


Flukers ca w d3:
Calcium not less than.....36.00%
Ingredient: Calcium Carbonate and Vitamin D3 supplement
Vitamin D3 minimum...100,000 IU/pound
Available in sizes: 2oz, 4oz, and 8 oz jars
Store in a cool, dry place


Flukers Orange cubes:

Ingredients:
Water, carageenan, soya protein, dried brewers yeast, dried kelp, calcium carbonate, spirulina, potassium sorbate, ascorbic acid, citric acid, yellow #6 food color.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein (min.) 3.5%, crude fat (min.) 0.1%, crude fiber (max.) 0.5%, moisture (max.) 92%, calcium (min.) 580 ppm.

I feel like such a dip because i dont remember the actual ratio i used for the other food. but the crickets idk if it makes a difference, i just got more yesterday.

what is the ideal supplement levels?

 

[Kitdragon2000]

okay. listening and reading...

> i know shes got Mbd,
> im thinking it is partial RI, i can sometimes hear the click when she breaths :/
>slight dehydration that im working asap to fix (anyone know how many sq to give? dose wise?)
> all rolled into one am i missing something?

 

[Kitdragon2000]

Okay.

Got a hold of my vet (yes she's awesome).
She gave me the dose for baytril to start tomorrow for 5 days
she also recommended a 1/4 tum crushed in water to make 1 cc and .5cc twice a day.
got the .5 cc into the girl tonight, not much fighting at all. and she's already looking a tad better!! at least better color and more 'here' so we'll see how it goes.

*fingers crossed* okay i need to head to bed. thank you everyone! of course any additional information i would be extremely grateful for!

Thank you!

 

[kinyonga]

There's vitamin D3 in both your vitamins and your calcium/D3 supplements and no amounts given for the vitamin A. So all I can tell you is what I do and that my chameleons do well.

I dust at almost every feeding with a phosphorous - free calcium powder (rep-cal) to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous found in most feeder insects.

I dust lightly twice a month with a phosphorous - free calcium D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB. Supplements can lead to overdoses but exposure to the UVB light won't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB when it wants to.

I dust lightly twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A because prOformed sources will not build up in the system like prEformed sources can. This leaves it up to you to provide vitamin A in the prEformed source when it is necessary. I use Herptivite.

I feed /gutload the insects with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

It's important for the calcium, phosphorous, D3, vitamin A for good bone health to be in balance and this seems to work for me.

Hope you get it figured out.