Even Dr. Mader Knows Reptiles Show Affection to Their Owners

[jannb]

By the way, that vidio clip is one of my all time favorites!

Thank you! I wish I could get my husband to video more. I only breed my pets every now and then and have some eggs due to hatch in 2 to 3 months. I can not wait!! I will drive all the forums members crazy with all my pictures but thay are so adorable I just can’t help it. My adults are all friendly too. Some super friendly and want to hang out with me all the time.

 

[Teal Beauty]

Ok, I have been watching this thread and have been debating on whether or not to join in. Those of you who care to read, here is my 2 cents...

Those of you who have gotten to know me, already know how I stand on this topic. For those of you who are left to wonder, let's just say that, not to throw science out the window, but I firmly believe (as I have witnessed for myself) that chameleons are capable of forming "bonds" with those who care for them. @jamest0o0 I do believe that it is a bit far fetched for you to say that by believing that one can bond with chameleons and stating this stance, that one is putting the health of chameleons at risk by advocating poor husbandry. Hello? Seriously? Cast blame where it belongs...big name pet stores that sell chameleons without knowledge of proper needs and care, breeders who are out to sell and earn a "quick buck" and sell without knowledge of who they are selling to and/or without adequately educating the people they sell to, and over eager and/or spontaneous purchasers who buy on a whim without researching and knowing what they are getting themselves into.

I also firmly believe that some people are more capable than others at interacting with animals and forming bonds with certain species. Just like some people prefer certain animals, some animals prefer certain people. If you do not feel connected with your chameleons, perhaps it is because chameleons do not "feel" a connection with you!

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

With selective breeding for character and by handeling every baby very frequently from the moment they hatch there is no detectable fear at all for being handled! And please do not insult me by implying that I do not know how to detect fear in chameleons or that I misinterpret fear for something else! Each chameleon does have their own personality and will have its own responce to humans. Some are more cudly than others. My chameleons sell very easily. I never struggle to sell them. I hardly ever advertise because people contact me and ask me to sell them my chameleons, why? Could it have something to do with the fact that the people who already have some of my amazing little treasures with sweet loving personalities can't stop bragging about the incredible experience they are having with their babies? How amazing to receive a chameleon that does not have to be "tamed" or "won over", over the course of months or maby even years and then still have a pet that is a "observe only don't touch" pet! I rest my case! The proof is in the Pudding!

I can attest to this . Now I don’t have the experience that all you have . I am a newer keeper to chameleons not reptiles . Septiseye is not afraid I don’t care what any one of you think . He has a personality and he’s smart . If a new keeper does not do their research or take the time to get to know their chameleon that’s on them . Frances and septiseye are very very different.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Matt Vanilla Gorilla I think you're taking this more defensively than it has to be. As I've said in other threads, stress isn't a good or bad thing always, it's stimulation. Picking your chameleon up is stressing it, it may like that stress(think sports, exercise, etc) but it's still stress and if it can't escape(the case of a new person constantly holding theirs) it'll cause harm.

Also I've heard great things about your chams, but look at the kammers, they must sell 50 or more chams a month. And I doubt most people could care less about the Panther' s personality they're buying. It's all about having a good looking/healthy lizard. Anybody that chose chameleons for something to constantly pick up, picked the wrong animal.

 

[jamest0o0]

The thing is, this is basically a science verse owners who are in love with their animals thread lol. Facts will never win when emotion is involved.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Ok, I have been watching this thread and have been debating on whether or not to join in. Those of you who care to read, here is my 2 cents...

Those of you who have gotten to know me, already know how I stand on this topic. For those of you who are left to wonder, let's just say that, not to throw science out the window, but I firmly believe (as I have witnessed for myself) that chameleons are capable of forming "bonds" with those who care for them. @jamest0o0 I do believe that it is a bit far fetched for you to say that by believing that one can bond with chameleons and stating this stance, that one is putting the health of chameleons at risk by advocating poor husbandry. Hello? Seriously? Cast blame where it belongs...big name pet stores that sell chameleons without knowledge of proper needs and care, breeders who are out to sell and earn a "quick buck" and sell without knowledge of who they are selling to and/or without adequately educating the people they sell to, and over eager and/or spontaneous purchasers who buy on a whim without researching and knowing what they are getting themselves into.

I also firmly believe that some people are more capable than others at interacting with animals and forming bonds with certain species. Just like some people prefer certain animals, some animals prefer certain people. If you do not feel connected with your chameleons, perhaps it is because chameleons do not "feel" a connection with you!

Point and fact Frances and septiseye. Frances amazing little beauty that has been on antibiotics pretty much her whole life and is not overly friendly , versus septiseye whom was from well you know whom is healthy, friendly and downright amazing . Why would that be ? Big box store versus amazing breeders and keepers . I know I’m not concidered knowledgeable but I have both big box store chameleon and amazing genetics breed well huge difference .

 

[jamest0o0]

My tree candy chameleon is a grump, bites me constantly, and hates human interaction. He was from a great breeder though and you'd have a hard time finding any ambanja that compare to bonsai line.

My first chameleon I got to openly walk on me any time. I was like you guys, constantly interacting with my chams. I enjoy the "bond" for what I can get out of it. I think a lot of you are mistaking me for someone who doesn't want to love my animals or spend time with them. I just simply am a realist who takes them for what they are. I won't push BS that they are intelligent lol. All of my animals that I can work with, I do.

 

[jannb]

Ok, I have been watching this thread and have been debating on whether or not to join in. Those of you who care to read, here is my 2 cents...

Those of you who have gotten to know me, already know how I stand on this topic. For those of you who are left to wonder, let's just say that, not to throw science out the window, but I firmly believe (as I have witnessed for myself) that chameleons are capable of forming "bonds" with those who care for them. @jamest0o0 I do believe that it is a bit far fetched for you to say that by believing that one can bond with chameleons and stating this stance, that one is putting the health of chameleons at risk by advocating poor husbandry. Hello? Seriously? Cast blame where it belongs...big name pet stores that sell chameleons without knowledge of proper needs and care, breeders who are out to sell and earn a "quick buck" and sell without knowledge of who they are selling to and/or without adequately educating the people they sell to, and over eager and/or spontaneous purchasers who buy on a whim without researching and knowing what they are getting themselves into.

I also firmly believe that some people are more capable than others at interacting with animals and forming bonds with certain species. Just like some people prefer certain animals, some animals prefer certain people. If you do not feel connected with your chameleons, perhaps it is because chameleons do not "feel" a connection with you!

I agree. I could see SOME people not believing me but it is unbelievable that people would question the world re-nowned Douglas Mader that has studies reptiles just about his entire life and to also not believe Sir David Attenborough???

 

[jannb]

Point and fact Frances and septiseye. Frances amazing little beauty that has been on antibiotics pretty much her whole life and is not overly friendly , versus septiseye whom was from well you know whom is healthy, friendly and downright amazing . Why would that be ? Big box store versus amazing breeders and keepers . I know I’m not concidered knowledgeable but I have both big box store chameleon and amazing genetics breed well huge difference .

It’s not just chain Store Breeders, it almost all big Breeders.

 

[Teal Beauty]

I know I’m not concidered knowledgeable but I have both big box store chameleon and amazing genetics breed well huge difference .

Give yourself some credit lady! You are way more knowledgeable than you are willing to admit. Just because you are still learning doesn't mean you are not already on your way to being an expert! We are all still learning and in my opinion open mindedness and the willingness to continue learning counts BIG TIME!!!

 

[jannb]

Give yourself some credit lady! You are way more knowledgeable than you are willing to admit. Just because you are still learning doesn't mean you are not already on your way to being an expert! We are all still learning and in my opinion open mindedness and the willingness to continue learning counts BIG TIME!!!

I agree! Kristen is open minded and willing to learn.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

It’s not just chain Store Breeders, it almost all big Breeders.

Agreed .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Give yourself some credit lady! You are way more knowledgeable than you are willing to admit. Just because you are still learning doesn't mean you are not already on your way to being an expert! We are all still learning and in my opinion open mindedness and the willingness to continue learning counts BIG TIME!!!

Learning is a constant . How Human lol

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I agree! Kristen is open minded and willing to learn.

Thank you @jannb your very kind .

 

[jamest0o0]

I hope through our differences, we can still all be chameleon friends

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I hope through our differences, we can still all be chameleon friends

That is what makes the world go around we are all different, different believes , different ways , different experiences .

 

[TCMontium]

I guess most people do not understand that an animal not having any "love" or "bond" for a human doesn't directly mean the animal is getting stressed or being psychologicaly harmed while interacting with a human (their owner).
If the animal is familiar with the human and has learned that the human does cause positive situations (eating, heat, climbing and walking around, scratching, bathing/cleaning etc.) then the animal will be happy to see and interact with the human. Why would it be stressed or afraid if it learned that only (or mostly) good things come with the human?

This is why your "bond" is not anything negative as long as the chameleons have learned your helpfulness and are happy to interact with you.
But being happy to see or interact with someone/something doesn't mean loving or bonding with that someone/something (of course these are VERY abstract choises of words, but I think we all understand the kind of "love" and "bond" discussed in this thread, hopefully we all do anyways).
Of course there always are individual differances, so some chams may not even like their kind and patient breeder very easily. And some chams might just quickly adapt to humans. There is genetics involved with the characteristics too, so some breeders might have more "tame" or "friendly" offsprings then other breeders (but OF COURSE genes are not the only factor).

Actually, now that I think about it, the chameleons just might love their owners. But not because they see you as a family member, but because you make them so happy with your help to their lives. Therefore they might be loving you or be addicted to you. Like a person loving a video game or being "addicted" to nutella. But most likely not the kind of "love" or "bond" that is causing social creatures to risk their own profits, health or comfort etc. for their loved ones/objects.

If this happyness and "love" of the chameleons really does turn out to be an unnatural, uncharacteristic new feeling in solitary reptile brain, then I hope I will see the proofs!

 

[jamest0o0]

I guess people don't know what stress is. IT'S NOT BAD, ONLY WHEN IT'S NOT ESCAPABLE.

stress
stres/
noun

1. 1.
   pressure or tension exerted on a material object.
2. 2.
   a state of mental or emotional strain or tension

 

[jamest0o0]

If your chameleon goes somewhere else. It will not be heartbroken. None of you people have anythiing but speculation because that's the easy thing to believe. It's fun and childish. But it's not nature.

Think about who gains what here. I have nothing to gain by thinking my chameleon is driven off mostly instinct and some amount of learning. I'm sure anyone would love to have a chameleon bond and have them around constantly.

Now what do you Cham lovers have to gain? Justifying your actions because otherwise that would mean you've been tormenting your animal for weeks/months/years.

In any other situation we'd all be arguing the other way around, but because it's something we do, we defend it and refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe were wrong. Funny how we believe science in every other aspect that benefits us

This "love rules over" is actually just ego which funny enough creates more problems than it helps

Good bye

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

If your chameleon goes somewhere else. It will not be heartbroken. None of you people have anythiing but speculation because that's the easy thing to believe. It's fun and childish. But it's not nature.

Think about who gains what here. I have nothing to gain by thinking my chameleon is driven off mostly instinct and some amount of learning. I'm sure anyone would love to have a chameleon bond and have them around constantly.

Now what do you Cham lovers have to gain? Justifying your actions because otherwise that would mean you've been tormenting your animal for weeks/months/years.

In any other situation we'd all be arguing the other way around, but because it's something we do, we defend it and refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe were wrong. Funny how we believe science in every other aspect that benefits us

This "love rules over" is actually just ego which funny enough creates more problems than it helps

Good bye

Lol you can’t just leave like that @jamest0o0 you have to be chameleon friends and we even though have different outlooks love chameleons and people have things to learn from you , from @Matt Vanilla Gorilla , @jannb , @Teal Beauty , @JacksJill everyone that has chimmed in . We are all unified in the love of chameleons .