Even Dr. Mader Knows Reptiles Show Affection to Their Owners

[jajeanpierre]

I think with chams the issue is it takes long to gain their trust and therefore people don't do it correctly and push to hard. With tegus and monitors you have to have them handlable or at least trained in some aspect so you can get in and out and feed them because they are actually a dangerous predator. Chams will hide more than fight, other than the bluffs. I would never want a black throat to decide his territory was his when I needed to clean it. But then again a lot of people are also stupid with tegus and monitors. Just like cats and dogs they treat them like something that is completely controlled. Not even dogs or cats are like that.

Oh, @Andee , please. Chameleons are not very intelligent. Intelligence involves problem solving abilities and they are really poor problem solvers.

Case in point: I feed out of a tub, a semi opaque zip-lock food storage container. They get fed all their staple food out of that tub. If they are not above the tub, they can see the roach through the sides and will repeatedly strike the side of the tub and fail. They will do this many many times. They will not figure out that they have to get 3" higher to be able to strike the bug. If I see it, I pick them up and put them above the tub. If I don't notice, they sit there frustrated and hungry. That shows me they have pretty poor problem solving abilities and are very very slow learners. A chicken takes about 50 repetitions to learn a behavior. A parrot can learn the first time. My chameleons take a lot more than 50 reps to learn that they cannot shoot a bug through the solid wall of a feed tub. That's pretty dumb.

They are interesting and fun, but let's not give new owners any more unreasonable expectations of them. It's bad enough when experienced owners convince themselves their animals love them when there is nothing in their natural history that they show affection towards. Do they learn the owner is the bringer of good things? Yes, but that is not affection--that's just learning where food comes from.

 

[Andee]

Nothing learns without being taught if it has never experienced it before. Except very few animals. And very few individuals. My geckos are the same way. I do not view all intelligence the same way. Otherwise the majority of service dogs and dogs in generally stupid. Problem solving isn't the only form of intelligence. Plus if a new keeper sees this and decides to take only a few things from it like you guys are worried about that shows they are the stupid ones. Most new keepers don't read threads this huge and in depth from my experience. But as we all know I don't do anything like most keepers.... so maybe I am just one of those black sheep. I also believe jumper species can be taught tricks. And arachnid species that everyone thinks are basal creatures because they randomly bite sometimes without warning are incredibly intelligent. Maybe it's just cause I have worked with poorly socialized dogs and things that people view as cuddly. They are more likely to bite that. A poorly socialized arachnid or anything someone views as instinctual. A bond is completely different than affection. And Ryker is the only chameleon I have had that shows me outright warmth. But I have had abused and neglected chams up the wazoo.

 

[Andee]

(Btw I gotta say guys, after what I have experienced recently with some other reptile and exotic groups, I always am blown away about how often we can express our completely different opinion without attacking each other. We aren't always perfect but it's so so much better lol)

 

[JacksJill]

I don't care what anyone says I don't think chameleon's are ever going to be good at higher math.
In my opinion they do have some rudimentary problem solving abilities. The clear container thing is beyond them only because they are so visually fixated.
They do even seem to recognize their keeper and form a trusting bond. I would call it closer to a truce than the family bond that birds and mammals experience.
I've been calling my self crazy because I'd swear I can see a different facial expression on my cham when he wants something versus telling me to F off. (something in the eye movements). Good for you all if you have gotten more than that.
We should be very careful not to confuse new handlers into thinking that the frozen in deathly fear cham in their grip is bonding with them as the stress slowly kills it. (is that enough of a buzzkill @jamest0o0)
We tend to judge intelligence on brain size but newer science has shown different brain structure can boost intelligence in certain areas without additional mass. This has been demonstrated in birds especially ravens or crows. Hopefully future studies will shed light on this debate and I will happy concede the point.
One other point I don't think you can equate intelligence with the ability to bond. These traits don't even coincide in humans.
As always I enjoy debating these points with you and value all of your opinions.

 

[nightanole]

When i started full time free ranging with no cages, i keep finding my little darlings stuck at the bottom of boxes. I guess the curious critters thought they could walk across them.

We see animals in the wild and think they have razor sharp survival techniques. My tarantula will attempt to scale the glass and walk across the screen top. She gets about 2 steps onto the screen and ends up just swinging by 1-2 legs, and i assume a look on her face of " i have made mistakes".

Pretty sure wild animals survive by blind luck too.

As for how smart chameleons are, i watched my veiled look at its own poop, think its a bug, get a tongue full of poop, and then proceed to think of a master plan to not have to eat poop.

 

[Andee]

lmao XD @nightanole

I have had some pretty stupid ones in my midst. Neptune is probably my smartest and puts me through my paces as far as a chameleon. Chronos is the smartest reptile I have ever had. Teo and Ryker are just lovable idiots who appreciate my company. I have had jumping spiders who are extremely intelligent and then those of the same sac who... would never survive if not for me feeding them. It honestly depends hugely on the individual I think with intelligence. It's why about 75% of dogs people think are smart are actually stupid and those people think are stupid are actually incredibly smart and people just haven't figured them out yet. makes me laugh.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Nothing learns without being taught if it has never experienced it before. Except very few animals. And very few individuals. My geckos are the same way. I do not view all intelligence the same way. Otherwise the majority of service dogs and dogs in generally stupid. Problem solving isn't the only form of intelligence. Plus if a new keeper sees this and decides to take only a few things from it like you guys are worried about that shows they are the stupid ones. Most new keepers don't read threads this huge and in depth from my experience. But as we all know I don't do anything like most keepers.... so maybe I am just one of those black sheep. I also believe jumper species can be taught tricks. And arachnid species that everyone thinks are basal creatures because they randomly bite sometimes without warning are incredibly intelligent. Maybe it's just cause I have worked with poorly socialized dogs and things that people view as cuddly. They are more likely to bite that. A poorly socialized arachnid or anything someone views as instinctual. A bond is completely different than affection. And Ryker is the only chameleon I have had that shows me outright warmth. But I have had abused and neglected chams up the wazoo.

You are mistaken @Andee, everything learns even bacteria. Did you know you can train bacteria?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/410918/teaching-bacteria-to-behave/

Learning is something an organism does to survive. There are few behaviors that are not learned. They do not need to be "taught" in order to learn. Don't mistake trainability with intelligence. They are two separate things.

Let's not also redefine intelligence, which is generally accepted as the ability to acquire and apply knowledge. The application of something learned is problem solving.

A bond is a close interpersonal relationship. It is an attachment. It involves affection and trust. It is just not something a chameleon is capable of feeling. Why oh why do people insist that something an animal does not exhibit in the wild suddenly happens when put in a cage? There is no nurturing, no social structure amongst chameleons in their life. Enjoy them for what they are.

 

[leedragon]

You are mistaken @Andee, everything learns even bacteria. Did you know you can train bacteria?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/410918/teaching-bacteria-to-behave/

Learning is something an organism does to survive. There are few behaviors that are not learned. They do not need to be "taught" in order to learn. Don't mistake trainability with intelligence. They are two separate things.

Let's not also redefine intelligence, which is generally accepted as the ability to acquire and apply knowledge. The application of something learned is problem solving.

A bond is a close interpersonal relationship. It is an attachment. It involves affection and trust. It is just not something a chameleon is capable of feeling. Why oh why do people insist that something an animal does not exhibit in the wild suddenly happens when put in a cage? There is no nurturing, no social structure amongst chameleons in their life. Enjoy them for what they are.

I see this as a self projection towards the animal. and it is quite dangerous. how many times has not come up " the chameleon burrito" or that kind of nonsenses. I duscurage this thinking. because the owner. the owner often times will put the animal throught things that are unhealthy becuase they Think their animals is somehow different.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

My glas is always half ful! You see horse poop and I see the horse! I see your point but you ridicule my point I am trying to make and call my way bad! Time will teach even the most stubborn of people that Love always wins the battle! Proof is in the pudding! Nothing stresses my chameleons out! They are therefore set on a path of health and longevity! I rest my case!

 

[jannb]

My glas is always half ful! You see horse poop and I see the horse! I see your point but you ridicule my point I am trying to make and call my way bad! Time will teach even the most stubborn of people that Love always wins the battle! Proof is in the pudding! Nothing stresses my chameleons out! They are therefore set on a path of health and longevity! I rest my case!

Those of us that really love them are the only ones that see them for what they really are.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Those of us that really love them are the only one that see them for what they really are.

Beyond agree .

 

[Goose502]

My glas is always half ful! You see horse poop and I see the horse! I see your point but you ridicule my point I am trying to make and call my way bad! Time will teach even the most stubborn of people that Love always wins the battle! Proof is in the pudding! Nothing stresses my chameleons out! They are therefore set on a path of health and longevity! I rest my case!

I would never question your husbandry skills, and admire your (and all those who feel they've "bonded" with there chameleons) relationships. But there is a difference between perception and reality. Don't ever let love blind you.

 

[Scottsquatch]

This thread has been a great read. So far I see two distinct camps. I guess I would have to say I don't believe they actually "bond" with us by strict definition, but they definitely can learn. I think they can learn to trust us to the point that they do not fear us and this can really seem and feel like affection. Whatever the case, I think they are incredible animals and i will enjoy them no matter what type of interactions I have with them.

 

[Andee]

I am well aware that certain individuals hold no affection towards me and I may gain no more than just tolerance from them, I am also aware that if you work on it many individuals if worked with are able of trust if not more. I never push them beyond their limits and probably take my hand feeding much slower than any other keepers because of some animals who come to me. Like Hope I didn't even try to hand feed until... about 6 months into having her.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Matt Vanilla Gorilla I don't think anyone is ridiculing you.

An argument could be made that it is selfish to project human traits on a chameleon.

 

[jamest0o0]

Those of us that really love them are the only ones that see them for what they really are.

And many people will see that as toys.

If I'm picked up by a gorilla, I'll still be stressed and nervous, no matter how friendly the gorilla is. That's how they see us times 100.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

With selective breeding for character and by handeling every baby very frequently from the moment they hatch there is no detectable fear at all for being handled! And please do not insult me by implying that I do not know how to detect fear in chameleons or that I misinterpret fear for something else! Each chameleon does have their own personality and will have its own responce to humans. Some are more cudly than others. My chameleons sell very easily. I never struggle to sell them. I hardly ever advertise because people contact me and ask me to sell them my chameleons, why? Could it have something to do with the fact that the people who already have some of my amazing little treasures with sweet loving personalities can't stop bragging about the incredible experience they are having with their babies? How amazing to receive a chameleon that does not have to be "tamed" or "won over", over the course of months or maby even years and then still have a pet that is a "observe only don't touch" pet! I rest my case! The proof is in the Pudding!

 

[jannb]

With selective breeding for character and by handeling every baby very frequently from the moment they hatch there is no detectable fear at all for being handled! And please do not insult me by implying that I do not know how to detect fear in chameleons or that I misinterpret fear for something else! Each chameleon does have their own personality and will have its own responce to humans. Some are more cudly than others. My chameleons sell very easily. I never struggle to sell them. I hardly ever advertise because people contact me and ask me to sell them my chameleons, why? Could it have something to do with the fact that the people who already have some of my amazing little treasures with sweet loving personalities can't stop bragging about the incredible experience they are having with their babies? How amazing to receive a chameleon that does not have to be "tamed" or "won over", over the course of months or maby even years and then still have a pet that is a "observe only don't touch" pet! I rest my case! The proof is in the Pudding!

Kudos to you Matt! Some babies are never touched except to be put in the shipping bag. My babies are just like yours. They all love coming out of the bins to hang out with me and my husband. They all enjoy their first vet visit too and being handled by the vet and all the girls there. Never the least bit scared of anyone.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-babies-are-one-month-old.40584/

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Kudos to you Matt! Some babies are never touched except to be put in the shipping bag. My babies are just like yours. They all love coming out of the bins to hang out with me and my husband. They all enjoy their first vet visit too and being handled by the vet and all the girls there. Never the least bit scared of anyone.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-babies-are-one-month-old.40584/

A! So refreshing! A kindled spirit! See, some humans are more cuddly than others too!

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

By the way, that vidio clip is one of my all time favorites!