Even Dr. Mader Knows Reptiles Show Affection to Their Owners

Discussion in 'General Photography' started by jannb, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. hopps31

    hopps31 Avid Member

    I was not sure if my question got lost in all the posts haha, no biggie I was just curious, whatever it is called the whole piece looks awesome(y)

    Thanks!! Grapevine is a great suggestion, unfortunately it is not very common in Maine naturally but I will have to see what I can build from the old "Hobby Lobby":)

    Awesome, thanks so much for the suggestion, unfortunately we don't have much if any here in Maine, so I just told hubby it is time for a trip to Cali. to get some:ROFLMAO:
     
    Teal Beauty likes this.
  2. Matt Vanilla Gorilla

    Matt Vanilla Gorilla Chameleon Enthusiast

    Most, if not all, maples are chameleon safe. The long thin branches are very flexable. Especially in the spring. If you take your time bending and shaping them over a couple of days and then let them dry in that shape they should be perfect!
     
    Kristen Wilkins likes this.
  3. Andee

    Andee Chameleon Enthusiast

    I don't like it when the forum fights.... it makes me disappointed when I posted earlier I was proud of us... it's these times I sometimes wonder if I should tag mods if people don't walk away on their own.
     
  4. Scottsquatch

    Scottsquatch Avid Member

    It really disappointed me that it could come to this. You know the saddest part of all of this is that if we were all sitting around a big table in a restaurant talking about the exact same thing it would have just been a great discussion. Everybody would have been chill and it would have been a good time. The problem with text is that we lose so many subtle cues. Inflections in tone, facial expressions, eye contact. Communication is so much more than just verbal. There are so many complexities that cannot be accurately portrayed through text alone. I wish everybody could just get back together and apologize to each other for how things played out. I truly don't think anybody meant to attack anybody originally but things were miscommunicated and taken wrong until a spark set it off and it devolved into crap. I REALLY hope that the rift that opened between members active in this thread can be closed. Let's all try to remember that we are all friends here and we all share a passion for these animals. We simply cannot allow something like this to happen again.
     
    Brad, jamest0o0, JacksJill and 4 others like this.
  5. jannb

    jannb Chameleon Enthusiast

    I’ve been posting on the forums and helping people for almost 10 years now. I use to be the top poster for years but not sure if post are counted with the new upgrade. As of the last few years I am almost always sough out and often attacked when I mention how friendly and loving my chameleons are. First by another forms member and now a different one. It really wears you down after awhile but I try to stay strong. There’s other people beside me that have extremely friendly chameleons that do allot of unconventional keeping but they usually don’t come out and tell everyone for the same reasons we see in this thread. I’m glad that someone else spoke up and shared their true experiences. Chameleons are amazing animals and have such an awesome behavior when allowed.
     
  6. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    @jannb you are stating an opinion that is not based on science.

    Scientific method is how these questions are answered. It has been used by the scientific community since the 17th century. It is the procedure of systematic observation, measurement, experimentation and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    Wishful thinking should never be mistaken for science. Observations are not just what someone thinks is happening, but are measurable.
     
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  7. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    I think we could start to answer this debate with a little science. We could start with the collection and analysis of data.

    One group would be the @jannb's in the world and the other would be the control group of people such as myself who tend not to handle their animals except when necessary. I bet I could find a group of chameleon keepers who handle their animals far less than I do. Both groups should list all the chameleons they have owned in their life, their origin (i.e. captive bred or wild caught), their species and what happened to them; the age in months at death and cause of death (pick an age when an animal should start to be counted because a neonate dying is not the same as a 5 month old dying); the veterinary intervention throughout the lives because, to be honest, I am struck by the amount of veterinary care some of these "chameleon huggers'" animals have had.

    That would be a fact-based start towards answering this question. I'm sure someone could easily design a questionnaire that could give us this data. @Chris Anderson
     
    #107 jajeanpierre, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    Goose502, jamest0o0 and TCMontium like this.
  8. funnyCAT140

    funnyCAT140 Established Member

    I think we should all just face the fact that we all have our own opinions and then move on. I know people that handle their chameleons and they live 5-7 years, I know people that handle their ball pythons everyday and they live 35+ years. There are many different types of scientists, and depending on what you believe in you will only listen to a certain kind. If you are a Christian, you only listen to the scientists that study the great flood. If you believe I evolution, then you only listen to the evolutionists. So depending on which scientists you listen to, you will get different answers and different opinions. Let's just simply state our opinion, listen to other people's opinions, then move on.
     
  9. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    NO; NO NO. that´s religion not science. you don´t fit facts to your believes. there is not such thing as alternative facts as a jackass have said. Have you religion all you want but that is about you spirutal beliefs. not about how the World works. science and fact is based on what you can prove not what you can Think. even theology teach about the flood being just a history to teach a moral. historians have found and older version of which the hebrews based their story of.
    Hell Jan. you are an old experience keeper. I do not intend to teach you how to raise chameleons. I am strongly respectuflly disagreeing with you approach to handle chameleons and view of them regardless to humans. reasons being many use the same argument to do nonsense with their animals. and we see lots of that here. eventually all of them ask for help or just plain out star a "rest in Peace " thread.
     
    jamest0o0 likes this.
  10. Teal Beauty

    Teal Beauty Established Member

    Good morning All :)

    I am very glad that the tone has changed within the thread as I do believe it is possible, with a little effort from all who participate, to communicate with consideration of varying perspectives and beliefs regarding this highly controversial topic.

    I really think that it is important to state I truly do not believe us "chameleon huggers" are trying to disregard science but actually quite the opposite. For our breeding program, it is important to us that our chameleons are handled regularly in order to NOT experience the ill effects of stress when they are transferred to their new owners and handled. The frequency of handling by those who choose to take one of our chameleons is up to them, though we do not advocate for a hand's off approach to handling, we also do not push "chameleon cuddles". People who do enjoy interacting with their chameleons do have great success with chameleons who have been desensitized to handling vs. Chameleons who have very little physical human contact as in the big chain pet stores.

    I do believe that this perspective can be supported by taking a look at all living things on this planet. For example, let's start with a plant. Can we take an indoor plant and move it to a different location (from minimal sun to full sun) from where it normally thrives and expect it to do the same? No we must acclimate. Next, what happens to a dog that does not undergo socialization? How does that dog respond to strangers? And finally a human baby. If you bring a human baby home from the hospital and tip toe around the house to avoid disturbing the baby, does the baby not experience some form of negative stress when woken? Does it not take less stimulation to evoke stress in the human baby?

    I believe the argument we are attempting to make here is NOT that our chameleons live a stress free life or that we are these non-believers in science, but that with a little unconventional handling, our chameleons are likely to experience fewer ill effects from stress than a chameleon who is not handled at all when in a situation where handling is a must (as when seeing a vet, cleaning a cage, transferring, etc.) Especially when frequent handling is maintained.
     
    #110 Teal Beauty, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  11. funnyCAT140

    funnyCAT140 Established Member

    I'm pretty sure that's what every scientist does, they fit facts with their beliefs.
     
  12. JacksJill

    JacksJill Chameleon Enthusiast

    The turn this has taken saddens me, As I reread it I suspect it was based on a misunderstanding. As Scottsquatch said tone is lost in print. Try not to assume the worst.
     
    funnyCAT140 likes this.
  13. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    Where is your scientific data to support your conclusion?

    Based on what you have written, you have made an hypothesis: Handling baby chameleons regularly prevents ill effects of stress from handling by a new owner.

    Where is your data that supports that?

    Show me your science. Show me in a measurable way that your chameleons handled your way show less stress than an unhandled animal. It would require blood work to measure stress hormones over time. I don't think you have that data. With a little work, I can find the data that will prove in a measurable way that handling reptiles raises stress levels.

    My survey would start to measure the effects of handling in two related aspects--life expectancy and health. It is one way to show handling does or does not cause ill-health/early death in chameleons. If there is no discernible difference to the life expectancy or the amount of veterinary care to handled animals versus unhandled animals, then I think we can start to come up with a conclusion as to the effects of handling on chameleons' well being.

    Let's support any hypotheses we present, because saying it is so just doesn't cut it in the real world.
     
    Goose502 likes this.
  14. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    That kind of thinking is a terrible mistake. Science isn't about opinions. It is about proving hypotheses with data and experiments that can be replicated.

    I actually spoke to a person the other day who insisted the earth was flat. I thought he was joking; he wasn't. The current climate of attacking facts and science--and let's not forget history--should send a chill down everyone's spine regardless of your political persuasion or religious beliefs.
     
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  15. jannb

    jannb Chameleon Enthusiast

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140930090443.htm

    By using this method in the past, I have been able to get my chameleons to open their mouths when meds or when carnivore care is needed and to also drink water from a plastic eye dropper. My daughter taught me this with her chameleons years before any research was done.

    How about some links to research Lynda, kinyonga. You are good at finding all the research. I normally learn from experience and closely working with my vet.
     
  16. Matt Vanilla Gorilla

    Matt Vanilla Gorilla Chameleon Enthusiast

    Yet, all I see from you is page after page of interpretation, opinion and aplication to what you "believe" and "feel"! Face it! Yours is just an opinion @jajeanpierre lol
     
  17. Teal Beauty

    Teal Beauty Established Member

    @jajeanpierre

    I have never stated that handling reptiles does not result in stress. It is a process of desensitization that results in less ill effects of the stress. This information has been gathered through own personal research, many years of personal experience and feedback from other well known and respected breeders as well as those who have received our chaneleons. In observing the typical fight or flight response, chameleons that are not regularly handled are more apt to flare up (a proven signal of ill stress) attempt to strike/bite/hiss and attempt to get away. Wild caughts without gradual handling and gradual desensitization are a perfect example.

    Your proposed survey is fine in theory, but what about the factors that cannot be easily controlled such as genetics? Are you suggesting that nature plays "0" role in the negative stress response of a chameleon?
     
  18. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    n
    no. there is calculations, experiment, empirical evidence. recidulas and colaterals. where is the math of the bible or any religios evidence? where are the experiments done to replicate such process? where is the genetics ? people do not just Think something is. there are regurous measures that need to be met Before being concider it a fact. where is all that with creationist or any other pseudo sciense?
     
  19. Teal Beauty

    Teal Beauty Established Member

    I think for the sake of keeping this already controversial thread open and in attempt to be respectful of our differences, we really need to stick to the topic here. Religion vs Evolutionist is a very sensitive discussion that should not be carried out on this site.

    Respectfully...
     
    animjason, Goose502, Brad and 4 others like this.
  20. funnyCAT140

    funnyCAT140 Established Member

    I don't know how to delete posts, but I didn't mean to post it. I meant to erase it, but my phone keeps posting things itself.
     
    #120 funnyCAT140, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    Matt Vanilla Gorilla likes this.

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