Even Dr. Mader Knows Reptiles Show Affection to Their Owners

Discussion in 'General Photography' started by jannb, Oct 8, 2017.

  1. leedragon

    leedragon Avid Member

    the Point is not what religion one has. you bring up science as something that one should chose which one is real and which one is not. and you brought a creationist belief as the flood as an example. and that is exactly what facts and science are not. yes science is not 100 % right becuase it is Always being tested and it is Always being better understood and discoveries are made. hypotesis are tested and see if the hold truth or not. just becuase every experiment has not been yet done in a field means not that the one who has non hypothesis proven has their stories counting as facts now.

    that is not science, nor facts.
     
    #121 leedragon, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  2. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    To this day I have yet to uncover a sciencetific study of the effects of the handled frequently captive chameleon vs hands off captive chameleon. If there is one please someone make it known.
     
    Kristen Wilkins and funnyCAT140 like this.
  3. jannb

    jannb Chameleon Enthusiast

    I have not seen one either but since I started keeping my guys have always had vet check ups and blood work and my vets always say there’s a little stress there caused by being forced to have a puncture in their tail to draw blood and he says that’s completely normal. Also once I had a male veiled show stress shown in bloodwork from seeing another male veiled. That was corrected ASAP. Hopefully the member here Kinyonga will be able to find some links. She’s really good at that.
     
  4. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    Thanks for the compliment Jann!
    I've been having a lot of trouble keeping up with this thread so I think it's affecting my searching g! :)
     
  5. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast


    I just proposed such a study. Life spans of handled versus non-handled animals.

    There are studies that reflect things like the levels of cortisol in response to stress. An interesting fact is that Bearded Dragons release very little cortisol when handled which explains why they seem to tolerate handling so well. And I can't remember the details of where I found that little Bearded Dragon nugget.
     
  6. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    But unfortunately just proposing a study on some forum on the internet isn't going to get the study done. Either the government or some other form of scientific body has to decide they are interested in it to fund such a study. This is a major reason why we already have such gaps in the biological understanding of chameleons. Until they do such a study this topic will probably remain a heated debate among members of this community.
     
  7. Decadancin

    Decadancin Moderator
    Staff Member

    So I will have to admit, I generally read every post prior to responding, but I grow tired of threads that continually have know it all keepers stating that their opinion is the only correct one. I have skipped to the end for this reply. Many call their opinions fact. In life, science can answer most things. I usually go to science for my answers, but I almost never believe in absolutes. It's what we learn after we know it all that really matters.
    Here is what I know to be true. I would love people to respect each other here on the forums and I am done with the tone of certain people's replies. I've tried to soften conflicts here by my actions, but it tends to only work short term. People have different personalities, I get that, but those who continue to verbally attack here will be dealt with.
    There are a number of members here who need to figure out how to get their points across without being rude or violating site rules.

    So here it is, my solution.

    I am going to delete those posts that are rude and give warnings from now on. I don't like to do this because it an open forum, but too often the one who is most insulting is the one who feels most comfortable posting and the result is less particiation.

    I am allowed to have an opinion that differs from yours. I'm even allowed to start a thread about it. You are allowed to disagree and post about it. As a moderator of these forums I'm also allowed to remove content that is rude or disrespectful.

    I hope we can all think about each other with respect and post that way as well.
     
    animjason, Brad, Goose502 and 4 others like this.
  8. JacksJill

    JacksJill Chameleon Enthusiast

    Moving on. If someone was going to structure a study to assess the long term affects of handling how would you suggest it be structured? How many species? How many years?
     
    Kristen Wilkins likes this.
  9. Fireborn

    Fireborn Avid Member

    I would like to see multiple species done. It would take probably quite a few year considering you would have to study these animals for their entire life time. Things that would need to be included are how often handled, How many health issues occurred in its life, life span, breeding habits, food intake, and daily husbandry.
     
    JacksJill likes this.
  10. JacksJill

    JacksJill Chameleon Enthusiast

    You would need a control group that gets minimal intervention beyond cleaning and feeding.
     
    Fireborn likes this.
  11. jannb

    jannb Chameleon Enthusiast

    Who ever does the study would need an expert chameleon vet such as Dr. Mader, which is not east to find. Only 5 vets in the world have his reptile degree. If a chameleon is not seen by a really good reptile vet you would never know what kind of health issues they may have. My vet doesn’t hesitate to do a total exam to diagnose issues. Sometimes that includes but not limited to ultra sound, cat scan and MRI. He has found things in my chameleon that I’ve never heard of other vets being able to diagnose but I know allot of keepers don’t even mention when their chameleon is sick or dies. I doubt some of them even use a vet at all. My vet has diagnosed things at regular checkups such as high blood pressure, cataracts, skin cancer hardening of the arteries and more.
     
    #131 jannb, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    JacksJill and Kristen Wilkins like this.
  12. JacksJill

    JacksJill Chameleon Enthusiast

    Good point. Complete periodic health exams would have to be part of the study.
    The control group and the study groups would need to have matching sibling pairs in each but from a variety of genetic lines.
    There would need to be both males and females in the study.
     
    Fireborn likes this.
  13. JacksJill

    JacksJill Chameleon Enthusiast

    @kinyonga I knew you would find something.
     
  14. kinyonga

    kinyonga Chameleon Enthusiast

    Sparse information. :(
     
    JacksJill likes this.
  15. Matt Vanilla Gorilla

    Matt Vanilla Gorilla Chameleon Enthusiast

    So many people hoot and holler about the negative affects stress has on the health and longevity of chameleons! I have a question to all our chameleon enthusiasts here! Do you know how old the mother (dame) of your beloved chameleon was when she layed the egg that your baby hatched from? Many studies have been done that shows that the longevity gene can be bread out of many creatures if they are always allowed to/made to breed at a young age! I wonder how many breeders keep this fact in mind when they breed their females!? I know that I do.
     
  16. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    How does your vet diagnose high blood pressure?
     
  17. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    You wrote: In observing the typical fight or flight response, chameleons that are not regularly handled are more apt to flare up (a proven signal of ill stress) attempt to strike/bite/hiss and attempt to get away. Wild caughts without gradual handling and gradual desensitization are a perfect example.

    @Teal Beauty Where do you get that from? In my experience of acclimating 60 wild caughts (most were adults at import) and temporarily housing many more from eight different species, I have found a profound LACK of aggressive defensive response and an almost zero flight response when handled with the exception of disking behavior of some quads and graciliors. The only time I have ever noticed any flight response with adult wild caughts is when they are in cover or are close to cover such as when they are outside on a bush and the wind blows and rustles the leaves. A wild caught usually sits perfectly still on a hand and rarely even gapes. They don't even show stressy colors.

    I can't think of a chameleon that is less handled than a newly imported wild caught and I find they have almost zero fight or flight response when handled. Some species will regularly "disc" when they curl up in a ball and bail off a hand, but that is only common in one species and its closely related sub species and even they don't all do it. Disking is not something I've experienced with any other wild caughts other than quads and graciliors. My biggest problem is getting them to gape for medication, so their "fight" response is also very very low.

    No, the nature of a chameleon is to remain hidden and not found. They are pretty defenseless when found by a predator.

    @Teal Beauty How many wild caughts have you personally acclimated? How many have you handled? I've handled hundreds and hundreds of wild caughts from huge adult parsons down to little F. campani. Be careful of what you present as fact when you might only be presenting an opinion or are just parroting something you've heard.
     
  18. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    Longevity gene? Show me where there is even such a thing!
     
  19. jajeanpierre

    jajeanpierre Chameleon Enthusiast

    I thank you for all your work pulling up studies, etc. It must be very tedious at times!

    I think it should be made clear that this reference came from a $12 pocket book on chameleon care, not a scientific paper. While I agree with the author, this is still not a scientific reference.

    I think a better reference would have been a reptile veterinary text bood on the effects of stress on reptiles in captivity. May I suggest the chapter plus that is given to the subject in Mader's veterinary textbook.
     

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