Dealing with an ill and passing chameleon...

[Whatascene]

So this post is going to look a lil different, I won't be posting the arduous details about my Cham as I've been through it with my vet who specializes in reptiles and it's not part of the reason he is ill.

So my veiled chameleon, Oberyn, is a 5-6 month old male. And yes there is a cynical irony GOT fans, that my lil guy is suffering from a fatal eye disease. My vet is great, people from out of state come to him for their reptiles and he sees all the major pet store reptiles in my area. I have no doubts in his judgement as everything I see lines up with his prognosis/diagnosis. We have extensively assessed cage, diet, and humidity, and have intervened intensively.

So Oberyn has been diagnosed with a disease that he cannot shed his eyes correctly, so the shedding gets trapped in his eyes and causes infection. This hasn't been a one time deal, it occurs every single time he sheds. I've even learned how to remove the shedding eye cap myself so he can see, and the shots only make him feel better until his next shed (which the shedding always remains trapped, never comes out). I do frequent misting and showering, no long-term results. During shedding he stops eating and becomes super frail. My vet and I are shocked he has made it this long as many juveniles die in the first or second shed in the wild. I don't remember the name for the diagnosis but it's a genetic disease where chams can't physically shed their eyes (not environmental).

Well we are at his 5th shedding and I've spoken with my vet about reasonable intervention and continuing with shots are not sustainable for him and his health or financially for me ($130 each visit, shedding is monthly). He will also probably become unresponsive since it's not fixing the shedding stuck.

He is getting weak again and I'm continuing to do what I've been doing... any ideas on keeping him comfortable? Anyone else know of or had a similar experience?

 

[Whatascene]

Here he is when he was healthy

 

[Whatascene]

His condition now

 

[Decadancin]

Could you possibly find the name of the diagnosis so we have something to start with? Perhaps there will be some previous threads that we could reference or some experienced vets may have some input.

 

[Angelwolf]

First of all. He is really beautiful! Secondly, YES! I have experienced a similar problem and may be able to offer a little help. My cham has always had a bit of an issue with his left eye, ever since I got him. He didn't quite have it open fully. Long story short, this past Halloween, I took him to the vet, because he had gone for 2 weeks with both eyes closed. He would still move around his cage, but you could tell he couldn't see. And I was concerned, because he couldn't eat, either. (Can't see. Can't eat.) So after some force feeding to get him to regain some weight (He lost about 25% of his body weight!), and a second visit with some blood work and a closer exam, we knew he didn't have an infection, and that his eyes were not stuck closed. He could open them, he just wouldn't. We took a shot in the dark and tried an opthalmic antibiotic/steroid ointment. From the FIRST time we put it in his eyes, he opened them up and has kept them open, and the same day he started eating on his own again! Over the next week, I continued to treat him, and on a couple of different occasions, there was dirt and also a fairly large piece of shed that came out of his eye turrets. The lubrication of the ointment was enough that he could work the crud out on his own, and the antibiotic and steroid in it helped with the inflammation. So I don't know if my cham has the same genetic problem, or if it's just coincidence, but he has had issues with getting the last little bit of shed off of his eye lids with about every one of his sheds. So if you haven't tried any kind of ointment, I suggest trying that. (p.s. DON'T just use Vaseline!)

 

[Whatascene]

I'll try and find it, it's ocular something and when I knew it I remember not finding much on google. It's something in the muscles like they don't function correctly so he can't physically shed his eye correctly. We used medicinal drops to help lubricate but I'll ask him about the steroid ointment tomorrow!

 

[Angelwolf]

Let me send you a pic.

 

[Angelwolf]

This is what we tried. Like I said, we kind of took a shot in the dark, because it was otherwise a mystery, and I was shocked at how much it helped! He will have a "greasy" looking head, but it will go away. And it certainly won't hurt to try! Anything to keep your baby going! Maybe this doesn't have to be a fatal thing. Sounds like he is in the absolute best hands he could ever be in! Please keep me posted?

 

[Angelwolf]

Oh yeah. And it was fairly inexpensive. Especially considering you only need a TINY dab.

 

[Whatascene]

I'll send this pic to my vet tomorrow (he has a business phone for clients to text questions to) and ask him the diagnosis name again! We did a lot of elimination to get to this point but we didn't try ointment, I'll see what he thinks!

 

[Angelwolf]

Oh, I hope it helps! It's more lubricating than eye drops, so hopefully it does!

 

[alphakenc]

View attachment 171548 This is what we tried. Like I said, we kind of took a shot in the dark, because it was otherwise a mystery, and I was shocked at how much it helped! He will have a "greasy" looking head, but it will go away. And it certainly won't hurt to try! Anything to keep your baby going! Maybe this doesn't have to be a fatal thing. Sounds like he is in the absolute best hands he could ever be in! Please keep me posted?

U need neosporin on your finger cut also

 

[Angelwolf]

U need neosporin on your finger cut also

LMAO! You should see my other finger, where Echo got me today! YOUCH!!!!! He has one he11 of a strong bite! I am seriously missing a chunk of my finger! It was an accident, though. I was hand feeding him, and he missed and got my whole finger!

 

[alphakenc]

Gee thats not good,try use a spoon or chopstick,teach him some table manner

 

[Andee]

I wish you luck just finished taking my panther in for a check up and learned that he has an abnormal pupil in one of his eyes, possibly from incorrect lighting or a birth defect we aren't sure. However it has caused problems in that eye so I have been tinkering with his set up to make him comfortable. I definitely recommend keeping up with regular showers until you can possibly find a long term solution. Good luck you two.

 

[Whatascene]

UPDATE!
The diagnosis is dysecdysis of the eye cap. It's due to genetic factors we found out due to process of elimination, we have increased humidity and he sheds his entire body correctly except his eye caps, they have always been manually removed, and he can't work the other crud that gets stuck in there either.

I spoke to my vet about trying the ointment and he said he'd be up for trying it so we will start that process soon. We did the drops already and unfortunately no result.

I will continue to do showers, my biggest worry is now that it's winter and I'm in the north, it gets rough in his room. We have cats, so the cage has to remain upstairs in a closed room, it gets coldest upstairs. When it was hot this summer when I got him, the room would get toasty and humidity retention was great. I have two heating bulbs going, it's a big cage. Any ideas on increasing retention of humidity during colder months?

 

[Whatascene]

I wish you luck just finished taking my panther in for a check up and learned that he has an abnormal pupil in one of his eyes, possibly from incorrect lighting or a birth defect we aren't sure. However it has caused problems in that eye so I have been tinkering with his set up to make him comfortable. I definitely recommend keeping up with regular showers until you can possibly find a long term solution. Good luck you two.

Thank you! I get so stuck in this back-in-forth of "oh he's pulling through!" and then he gets so frail it seems he's on the verge of death, and then he picks up again. My vet said 80% of his chams die from this, though Oberyn has made it longer than many he has seen with the condition. What sort of changes have you been making for his comfort?

 

[jajeanpierre]

@Whatascene Did your vet diagnose him with "dysecdysis"?

Most shedding problems are caused by poor husbandry--improper temperature, humidity, hydration, nutrition, etc, for that particular species. Lizards kept in too dry an environment often retain skin around the eyes and the toes (Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery). The thyroid also plays a role in shedding, but by far the majority of shedding problems are caused by poor husbandry which is something very much in your control

I'm sorry to say but the picture of your chameleon looking "healthy" doesn't look like a very healthy animal to me. He looks dehydrated.

You state that you mist, etc., but I am curious to know exactly how this animal is kept. I see you have artificial plants which don't help to raise humidity. Can you send pictures of your set up? Do you have an automatic misting system? Screen cage? Fogger?

I'm curious about the genetic disease your vet has diagnosed him with since very few studies are ever done on chameleons, let alone genetic studies. What injection did he give him? Was it subcutaneous fluids?

Shedding in reptiles is quite unique. At the beginning of a shed, lymph fluid floods between the two top layers of skin. There are enzymes that break down the connective tissues that keep the outer layer of skin attached to the inner layer. The lymph fluid eventually dries and with nothing holding the two layers of skin together, the top layer sloughs off. (Most interesting is that the enzymes that break down the connections between the two top layers do not break down the connections laterally, so the skin comes off in a sheet rather than cell by cell.) If the environment is too dry, the lymph fluid between the two layers of skin dies out prematurely and the digestive enzymes aren't able to do their job and break down the connective bonds holding the top two layers together, hence a retained shed.

Shedding problems are usually a symptom of a husbandry issue, not a disease process although parasites, infections and trauma (scars) can all play a role in poor shedding.

I'm going to be blunt. When I read your post, I had the distinct feeling you were asking us for permission to give up on your animal, that for whatever reason you didn't want him and wanted our approval for allowing him to die. I recently had a very disturbing conversation with a fellow breeder who stated that most chameleons are bought by someone who gets bored with their animal after about six months and at that point, they stop being extremely careful with their husbandry and surprise surprise, the chameleon dies. I was horrified by that discussion. Please prove him wrong.

I am always the first on this forum to defend anyone for deciding not to spend a lot of money to save an ill chameleon. I also expect people to humanely euthanize rather than allowing an animal to suffer. I honestly believe that if you give a chameleon optimum conditions for its species, it will thrive and never need a vet. Sick chameleons are a symptom that they are not being kept properly (there are a few caveats such as wild caughts but even wild caughts will heal themselves if given the opportunity).

I'm not intimately familiar with commercially bred veileds, but have picked up a few bits and pieces of information from very reliable sources to lead me to the conclusion that commercially bred veileds are hatched with calcium and vitamin deficiencies. They wholesale for about $8. Their cheap price means that short cuts on nutrition are made. The health of a hatchling is directly related to the health and nutritional status of its mother. I've been told that veiled breeders get one clutch from a female and then dispatch her because one clutch depletes her so much. A nutritionally depleted female produces eggs that are nutritionally depleted. There should be enough calcium and Vitamin A (and who knows what else) in the egg yolk that the baby pulls into their abdomen just before hatching to last for months. A calcium/Vitamin A deficient mother does not have those resources available to put into the eggs, so the babies hatch deficient. Those babies are unhealthy right out of the egg.

Your healthy pictures shows some evidence of calcium issues--look at how his lips do not meet smoothly at the very front of his face. Look at the picture of the young wild caught gracilior pictured in my avatar--do you see how his lips meet perfectly at the front of his face? Look also at the rostral crest (the ridge that goes from the orbital crest--which is the ridge over the eyes--to the very tip of his face) of your chameleon. Do you see it isn't a straight line, but pinched? That's not right. It should be straight and his fore face should be broad with his lips meeting perfectly. I think your chameleon has quite a few issues and husbandry can likely fix it all.

I believe all chameleons need--absolutely need--an automatic misting system. MistKing sells a very good unit for about $130. (Don't buy the cheap ones that will self destruct if the reservoir runs out of water because that happens.) They need a fine foggy mist to clean the debris out of their eyes. A hand mister produces very large droplets and most chameleons just don't like it. They want a foggy mist and they don't want you around making them nervous.

If I were dealing with your animal, I would put him in cage with three or four solid sides filled with live plants. I would run an automatic mister for 20 minutes and then 10 minutes every hour for several days or a week before dropping the misting to a more normal level. I would mist him many many times a day for minutes at a time with an automatic mister, more than the species really needs but this particular seems to need. I might add a fogger. I would soak him and keep it really really humid. I would make sure my temps were correct. I would make sure he had the best lighting and would replace what UVB lights you have since it is about 6 months old anyway. I would give him 10% (ZooMed) or 12% (Arcadia) strength UVB bulbs. I would make sure he had lots of bright light from regular bulbs. I would try to get him outside in the sun if at all possible. It can be done even in the winter if you are really careful about it--setting up a tote with a 1/4" wire screen top in a south facing corner where the sun warms up the area. Add heat bulbs. You can get cheap reflectors and heat lamps from feed stores. Feed stores sell heat lamps that are 150 and 250 watts, both white light and infrared. They also sell the reflectors that can handle that high a wattage. If farmers in Minnesota can keep day old chicks at 95F in an unheated drafty barn in Janurary, you can keep a chameleon warm for an hour in the sun. Last but not least, I would be extremely careful about his nutrition and make sure I fed him very very healthy well-fed properly gut-loaded feeders. Dusting with plain calcium of every food item, etc., etc.

I'm happy to help you get your husbandry right, but it starts with you and a will to do it. It isn't hard or particularly expensive.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'll try and find it, it's ocular something and when I knew it I remember not finding much on google. It's something in the muscles like they don't function correctly so he can't physically shed his eye correctly. We used medicinal drops to help lubricate but I'll ask him about the steroid ointment tomorrow!

See my post above. There is no muscle involvement in shedding.

 

[jajeanpierre]

UPDATE!
The diagnosis is dysecdysis of the eye cap. It's due to genetic factors we found out due to process of elimination, we have increased humidity and he sheds his entire body correctly except his eye caps, they have always been manually removed, and he can't work the other crud that gets stuck in there either.

I spoke to my vet about trying the ointment and he said he'd be up for trying it so we will start that process soon. We did the drops already and unfortunately no result.

I will continue to do showers, my biggest worry is now that it's winter and I'm in the north, it gets rough in his room. We have cats, so the cage has to remain upstairs in a closed room, it gets coldest upstairs. When it was hot this summer when I got him, the room would get toasty and humidity retention was great. I have two heating bulbs going, it's a big cage. Any ideas on increasing retention of humidity during colder months?

Dysecdysis literally means abnormal (dys) shedding (ecdysis). It is not a primary disease process but a symptom of another underlying primary problem.

Chameleons do not have eye caps. Snakes and a few other lizards have eye caps but not chameleons. Eye caps are formed when the eye lids are fused. Eye caps are basically the lower eye lid. It is skin. Chameleons do not have fused eye lids. I would be looking for another vet if he thinks your chameleon has eye caps.

Forget the word genetics because I would definitely not trust a vet who doesn't even know a chameleon doesn't have eye caps to know anything about chameleon genetics.

Vitamin A deficiency can cause dry eyes. Vitamin A deficiency causes all kinds of problems to the shedding of cells in places like tear ducts and glands.... I think it prudent to supplement with human grade Vitamin A. Your vet should be able to help you with the dosage. Soluble Vitamin A (the kind the vet gives in an injection) is riskier for an over dose. Chameleons cannot convert Beta Carotenes (plant based precursors to Vitamin A that are converted by the animal to usable Vitamin A) to Vitamin A so are useless.

Again, chameleons need long misting sessions to clean their eye turrets, not just for drinking.