Dealing with an ill and passing chameleon...

[Whatascene]

So question about the eyecaps... What is the that little tiny hard contact-like lens I help him pull out at shedding? That's what the vet it calling the cap. It's not like other regular shedding, it's harder and will blind him if I don't help him pull it off (he'll stop eating because he can't see).

 

[jajeanpierre]

So question about the eyecaps... What is the that little tiny hard contact-like lens I help him pull out at shedding? That's what the vet it calling the cap. It's not like other regular shedding, it's harder and will blind him if I don't help him pull it off (he'll stop eating because he can't see).

I haven't a clue but it is NOT an eye cap. As I said, I think you need a new vet.

I explained in an earlier post that an eye cap is only on an animal that has fused eye lids--the eye lids are fused completely across the eye. The eye cap is part of the lower eyelid I believe. It is skin and separate from the eye ball. Even a vet who doesn't know chameleons could look up eye anatomy in a veterinary text book. I did, which was why I was able to tell you what an eye cap was. If this is the vet who is treating all a pet stores chameleons and claims that 80% of them die from this supposed genetic disease, and STILL doesn't know even what an eye cap is, you really really have to question the competence of the vet.

It could be debris, shed, or an infection. Infection in a reptile does not look at all like in a mammal.

Please, take him to a new vet, one who at least knows the anatomy of chameleons.

 

[Whatascene]

I haven't a clue but it is NOT an eye cap. As I said, I think you need a new vet.

I explained in an earlier post that an eye cap is only on an animal that has fused eye lids--the eye lids are fused completely across the eye. The eye cap is part of the lower eyelid I believe. It is skin and separate from the eye ball. Even a vet who doesn't know chameleons could look up eye anatomy in a veterinary text book. I did, which was why I was able to tell you what an eye cap was. If this is the vet who is treating all a pet stores chameleons and claims that 80% of them die from this supposed genetic disease, and STILL doesn't know even what an eye cap is, you really really have to question the competence of the vet.

It could be debris, shed, or an infection. Infection in a reptile does not look at all like in a mammal.

Please, take him to a new vet, one who at least knows the anatomy of chameleons.

Yeah I get this and all I was just curious what it was. I've pulled it out of his eye 3 times when he sheds and it it a perfect circle like a hard contact lens. I just find it interesting and was wondering if anyone knew what it was.

 

[Carlton]

Well, it could be a piece of shed from his face that ended up in his eye. As the irritated eye tries to dislodge the bit of skin it forms more tears and the piece of skin could end up getting coated and thickened with discharge. In places where a cham's skin doesn't flex much (such as on the face, casque, dorsal crest, etc) the shed may come off in discrete pieces like little masks of the surface texture of the skin. These are not scales. An analogy that might help explain what I mean is something like spreading white glue on your finger tip. When its dry and you peel it off it will look like the skin underneath. Many of these little pieces from the face are circular. Different species have different skin patterns in different areas of the body. That's my best guess. At least we all know its just not an eyecap or something that the eye produced.

 

[Whatascene]

UPDATE
Today I got the script for drops+ointment listed on first page.
Got the vitamin A injection and next week I'll look into doing the drops on the crickets (injection lasts a week).
To increase heat and humidity I run a space heater on high next to the cage for 20 min or so during a spray around 2x a day.

I met with my vet to discuss his thoughts behind his diagnosis. I really wanted to give him a chance since he is well known in the area and I might have been putting too much stock in what he was saying or misinterpreting him. He stands by his diagnosis and did acknowledging knowing chameleons do not have eye caps, he was referring to the shedding being removed as "shedding caps" due to their shape and placement. He also stuck by his dysecdysis diagnosis, stating his impression is genetic or trauma to the eye that occurred early on. He doesn't think the husbandry contributes to the underlying condition, though thinks husbandry can always help in managing it. He also believes these swings will be life long and is hopeful it can be managed. I think he was upfront with me that he could pass away because he has seen many die with it. I also got clarity on the "80%" number he was referring to and he was referring to 80% that HE sees which now makes sense to me because he actually sees all the Petsmart chams so their upkeep really isn't the best and no wonder he has that impression.

 

[jajeanpierre]

That make more sense. "Dysecdysis" just means improper shedding.

Husbandry is the root cause of improper shedding. It is a leap for him to suggest genetics play any kind of a role in this.

It is husbandry. Get an automatic mister and run it multiple times a day for minutes at a time.

PetsSmart chameleons tend to be purchased by people who do a very poor job with their husbandry and most chameleons die. For him to suggest 80% of the chameleons he sees with this problem die is not a surprise to me since I bet all those animals also all end up dehydrated. Chronic dehydration, even low grade dehydration, causes kidney failure which can cause MBD, gout, and just plain fatal kidney failure.

If you don't have an automatic mister--a good one like a MistKing that can run for minutes at a time--there is absolutely no way for your chameleon to clean his eyes. They use mist for more things than just drinking. Yes, they get gunk in their eyes, including shed, but if they have ample foggy mist from an automatic mister, they WILL clean the gunk out of their eyes. If you spray them with a hand sprayer, the drops are too big and hit too hard so they will just shut their eyes. They won't clean their eyes in too hard a spray.

It's husbandry plain and simple.

 

[Angelwolf]

Very interesting reading. I am glad you got more answers from your vet. And you are both right. 80% of the chams he sees probably DO die , because the ones he sees do not have concerned and capable owners such as yourself. Sadly, the chams at many petstores are not of good quality, due to lack of concern for genetic s AND lack of care takers with knowledge of cham husbandry. At any rate, I do still think that using the ointment in his eyes when they are uncomfortable will certainly help him get the gunk out. And a mister is also a very important thing for your cham, as well. So please allow me to suggest that using the ointment is a temporary fix, and get yourself a good quality automatic mister as soon as you're able to. I personally feel that you will have a happy cham with a good, long life.

 

[Whatascene]

Just purchased the misterking!!! Thank you all so much for your help, I'll post updates in the future! Love learning about these lil guys since I do plan to raise chams as a lifelong hobby. I LOVE To learn and I am learning a lot from you all!! THANK YOU!

 

[Angelwolf]

View attachment 171851

Just purchased the misterking!!! Thank you all so much for your help, I'll post updates in the future! Love learning about these lil guys since I do plan to raise chams as a lifelong hobby. I LOVE To learn and I am learning a lot from you all!! THANK YOU!

Yay! Can you tell yoir dad to buy me one for Christmas, too?

 

[ChameSecret]

View attachment 171851Love learning about these lil guys since I do plan to raise chams as a lifelong hobby. I LOVE To learn and I am learning a lot from you all!!

IMHO this is exactly what you need to be a good chameleon owner: enthusiasm and the ability to admit mistakes and correct them. Great job taking criticism and acting! I really hope this turns things around for your little guy.

 

[Whatascene]

IMHO this is exactly what you need to be a good chameleon owner: enthusiasm and the ability to admit mistakes and correct them. Great job taking criticism and acting! I really hope this turns things around for your little guy.

Thank you! Yes, raising chams has a steep learning curve, I don't get why people would get defensive (I mean unless someone was rude), it's about the chameleon not your ego.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you! Yes, raising chams has a steep learning curve, I don't get why people would get defensive (I mean unless someone was rude), it's about the chameleon not your ego.

Rudeness no longer seems to be a socially agreed upon concept. Many get defensive because they come here looking for advice and get it. When the advice doesn't agree with what they are doing, they take it as a personal insult and get angry because their feelings are hurt. Sometimes they get very angry by the tone of the person giving advice. I find it very annoying to spend a lot of time researching a problem someone has, give an indepth answer and then be insulted and told I was rude because they didn't like the way my answer was written which isn't always sugar coated.

For example, I spent at least an hour studying several chapters in Mader's reptile veterinary text before I answered you. Researching someone else's problems helps me learn, but typing it up can sometimes be tedious. And then to be met with rudeness.....

 

[ChameSecret]

Mader's reptile veterinary text

*adding to Amazon wishlist*

 

[Whatascene]

Rudeness no longer seems to be a socially agreed upon concept. Many get defensive because they come here looking for advice and get it. When the advice doesn't agree with what they are doing, they take it as a personal insult and get angry because their feelings are hurt. Sometimes they get very angry by the tone of the person giving advice. I find it very annoying to spend a lot of time researching a problem someone has, give an indepth answer and then be insulted and told I was rude because they didn't like the way my answer was written which isn't always sugar coated.

For example, I spent at least an hour studying several chapters in Mader's reptile veterinary text before I answered you. Researching someone else's problems helps me learn, but typing it up can sometimes be tedious. And then to be met with rudeness.....

I just read you are blunt and direct, not rude! But I could totally see people who are on here looking just to be validated for what they are doing rather than looking for legit advice. Thank you so much for your research, I genuinely appreciate it! I am learning through your learning! Can I ask where your passion for this comes from? Are you looking to use your knowledge for something specific (career, hobby, breeding, etc)?

 

[Whatascene]

*as (read you as...)

 

[jajeanpierre]

*adding to Amazon wishlist*

Mader, REPTILE MEDICINE AND SURGERY, Second Edition.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I just read you are blunt and direct, not rude! But I could totally see people who are on here looking just to be validated for what they are doing rather than looking for legit advice. Thank you so much for your research, I genuinely appreciate it! I am learning through your learning! Can I ask where your passion for this comes from? Are you looking to use your knowledge for something specific (career, hobby, breeding, etc)?

You are welcome.

There are several reasons I am passionate about helping people with their chameleons.

I am heart broken when I read so many sad stories of doomed chameleons. I suspect the majority of chameleons produced in the US are dead before they are six months old. It reminds me of when I was a little girl and you could buy all those little baby red-eared slider turtles and they would all be dead in a few months. The wastage of life is very disturbing to me.

I feel awful for the heartbreak their owners go through when they spend a lot of money, sometimes when money is tight, and have their dreams shattered. They have this expectation of a pet chameleon and then their pet dies. I especially feel awful when they buy an expensive tiny baby that is doomed right from the beginning and they never saw it coming. It angers me that a breeder or store would offer those babies for sale knowing they won't live.

I find chameleons to be a hardy animal* when they are set up right, but most people end up killing them. The funny thing is that for most species, setting them up "right" is not all that rigid or exact. It really isn't rocket science. Much of the advice given over the internet, although given with the best intentions, is often just regurgitated axioms and old wives tales that are not based on experience or scientific fact. Sometimes it is given by people who have no experience other than a single animal that is very young or given by people who cannot keep a chameleon healthy or alive for very long. (*Note, healthy captive-born animals are very hardy, wild caughts are a whole other can of worms and usually very challenging.)

I breed a couple of species of chameleons that are very rare in captivity, even in Europe. They are only rare because they haven't been imported for many years and likely will not be legally imported for many years to come, if ever again. They are a really neat species to look at--they have horns, sail fins on their tails and backs, red claws, horns and dragon spikes on their throats. They are actually quite easy to care for and very tough and forgiving. I had only owned my first chameleon for less than two months before I bought my first wild-caughts (and they are still alive). I would like people to support breeders, to look beyond panthers and veileds and buy other species. If someone can't keep a veiled healthy and alive they won't be able to keep a montane like my graciliors alive. (Montane means originating from the mountains.) I can't for the life of me figure out how people can kill a veiled, but people do all the time (partly because veileds hatch with so many nutritional issues that they never had a chance but that's another story). So if I can help people keep their chameleons well, maybe they will buy a less common species from a breeder.

The corollary of buying from a breeder is that the buyer won't be supporting the wild-caught trade. The wild-caught trade is full of wastage, death and outright cruelty. A wild caught, unlike a healthy captive-born animal, is not so easy to keep alive. The wild-caught trade is really horrible. I've picked through a LOT of imports within 24 hours of arriving at the importer's and it is pretty heartbreaking. If I can help stop that, I'll have done a good thing.

Last but not least, I often help people to avoid doing chores!

 

[Whatascene]

UPDATE:

I installed the mister king about 1.5 weeks ago. Within a few days, Oberyn started shedding his whole body which I took as good news since he hadn't shed in a long time. Also, since this I have helped him pull out eye shedding twice (he still can't do it himself and it sits on his eyeball making him blind so he doesn't eat) out of his bad eye.
Now, his bad turret is still swollen, and instead of the typical swelling, it's pointed now and blocking his vision to sling his tongue. He misses crickets a lot, I'm lucky to get him to eat 5 or 6 crickets a day without him getting frustrated our anxious by my tweezers. I hope the swelling means he is working it out since I pulled some shedding out today.

Here are some pics of him this morning loving his mister. He's thin, he wouldn't eat for a few days and I'm trying to get his weight up. I've also been making sure he has access to plenty of water. I know he doesn't look awesome, but he's hanging in there!

 

[Whatascene]

Another one

 

[Andee]

He actually doesn't look horrible weight wise. If he was truly thin you would see more of his hip bones and his ribs would be more visible.