Don’t (always) Blindly Trust Your Vet

[cincychams]

This will be a long post, but I encourage to read to the end. I write with a very heavy heart that my 3 yr and 10mo old panther chameleon Ja’Marr passed away this morning. He declined very quickly, and within two or three days of showing signs of illness, he passed. I want to share my experience with a vet who I personally believe plays a large role in Ja’Marr’s sudden passing. The other day, I left some fruit in his cage that dropped to the floor, and thinking he ate it, I didn’t pay it any mind. A few days later, I noticed worms at the bottom of his cage, crawling on the fruit and some in his poop. Being a worrier like I am, I completely disinfected his cage and set up an emergency vet appointment the next day. He pooped on the way to the vet, allowing a fresh sample for tests. The vet used the sample in the tests and all tests came back negative. He said that the worms shown (i took pictures) were too big to be parasitic worms, and they most likely resulted from the fruit being left unattended. He gave me two rounds of deworming meds and said I could give them to him if it would make me feel better. He said the meds wouldn’t hurt him and to change nothing that I was already doing. Upon my own research, I’ve since learned that dewormers should never be given unless necessary, because it is very hard on their kidneys. Along with such, they need plenty of extra hydration while taking dewormers. I was told it wouldn’t make him sick at all and he’d be fine to take them though his fecal tests were negative. Like stated, I was told to change nothing and nothing about extra hydration was ever mentioned to me. And, maybe I’m wrong here, but I rarely paid attention to Ja’Marr’s drinking habits. He had 24/7 access to running and dripping water, along with misting. So, quite frankly, I knew he was drinking if he was thirsty. I gave him the first 5 days of dosages, and by day 4, he was looking a little sluggish. He was still eating, and I offered him extra water to which he did drink. A few days later, after his first round of dewormers complete, he deteriorated almost instantly. His eyes sunk in, along with his head, and he was very lethargic and unwilling to eat. This is when I did my own research because, clearly, there was something wrong. Finding out this information, I realized I really F’d up. Within 2 and a half days of his eyes sinking in, Ja’Marr passed. It was very sudden and even if I had taken him to an emergency vet visit, I doubt they would have been able to do anything anyways. Please don’t do what I did and always trust your vet blindly, especially if you are a new patient at their clinic and/or are new to reptile keeping. This was the second time this vet has messed up with Ja’Marr, and in this instance it cost us his life. Please do your own research, and this forum has really improved my knowledge of all species of chameleons. Ja’Marr was a chameleon of a lifetime, running errands with me in the summer, sitting on my head or shoulder as I baked or made tea, helped me with studying, and overall just gave me something to look forward to everyday. Rest in peace, Ja’Marr, love ya lil buddy

 

[Carlton]

So sorry you lost him OP. He was beautiful!

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not trying to make you feel worse than you already do, but some questions for you might tease apart what might have happened and what might NOT have happened.

What "tests" did the vet perform?

What dewormer did the vet prescribe? There are multiple types indicated for different types of parasites.

Did you take him back to the vet for a necropsy? If so, was the actual cause of death determined? Something unexpected might have been brewing that multiplied the stress from the dewormer. A necropsy could have revealed something no one expected.

Did the vet give the first dose of dewormer during the appointment, or did he leave you to do that at home? I would prefer that option myself. It would give me the opportunity to do my own reading about the med for myself. Maybe ask about it here for example. Other members with experience using that med could have offered suggestions for how to reduce stress the med might create. Did you do any research for yourself before using the dewormer? If you did, you might have found out about pushing extra hydration and avoid trouble...If that was in fact the problem.

Some thoughts for you to consider:

First off, I tend to agree with the vet that the adult "worms" you saw in the cage could have originated from the fruit itself and not necessarily been excreted by your cham. They could easily have been attracted to his poop too. You wrote that the fruit was in the cage for several days. It doesn't take long for eggs or larvae in fruit to morph into that form. Still, unless the worms were actually identified no way to know for sure.

When we are worried about a sick pet, unfortunately we can sometimes set a vet up to head down the wrong diagnostic/treatment pathway. You may have unintentionally steered the vet to suggest a dewormer despite negative test results. A single fecal float can fail to detect parasites if none happen to be passed in that particular sample. It does happen. Your cham was at a "mature" age. It's common for older chams to have less than perfect kidneys. If he'd never been tested or treated for parasites during his lifetime he could have been harboring quite a few. That just goes along with eating an insect diet. An otherwise healthy cham can tolerate some, but a dose of antiparasitic that kills a larger load off all at once can be overwhelming. Trying to get rid of decaying intestinal bugs can put a lot of stress on the host. A necropsy might have revealed an infection, cumulative organ damage from parasites, even kidney problems that were just waiting in the wings.

We can also unintentionally insist that the vet do something to justify the appointment. Such as give you a dewormer. Thousands of pet reptiles, including thousands of chams are given dewormers with no ill effects, even if there isn't a noticeable parasite load detected. That's often referred to as "shotgunning". Not suggesting that's ideal, just that it happens.

Once again, I am not trying to blame you for anything, just suggesting possibilities.

One reason I prefer to take my pets to a vet before they're sick is to establish a relationship with the vet while the pet is healthy. It establishes a health baseline. If/when the pet does end up with a problem, there's something to compare test results to. It also creates a relationship between owner and vet. Both learn more about the other's experience and understanding. That can save valuable time in an emergency.

Sometimes even with the best intentions, things don't turn out the way everyone hopes. Sometimes an undetected underlying vulnerability can turn a routine treatment into complications.

I know you're hurting, Maybe something in this post will help reframe things a tiny bit.

 

[cincychams]

So sorry you lost him OP. He was beautiful!

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not trying to make you feel worse than you already do, but some questions for you might tease apart what might have happened and what might NOT have happened.

What "tests" did the vet perform?

What dewormer did the vet prescribe? There are multiple types indicated for different types of parasites.

Did you take him back to the vet for a necropsy? If so, was the actual cause of death determined? Something unexpected might have been brewing that multiplied the stress from the dewormer. A necropsy could have revealed something no one expected.

Did the vet give the first dose of dewormer during the appointment, or did he leave you to do that at home? I would prefer that option myself. It would give me the opportunity to do my own reading about the med for myself. Maybe ask about it here for example. Other members with experience using that med could have offered suggestions for how to reduce stress the med might create. Did you do any research for yourself before using the dewormer? If you did, you might have found out about pushing extra hydration.

Some thoughts for you to consider:

First off, I tend to agree with the vet that the adult "worms" you saw in the cage could have originated from the fruit itself and not necessarily have been excreted by your cham. They could easily have been attracted to his poop too. You wrote that the fruit was in the cage for several days. It doesn't take long for eggs or larvae in fruit to morph into that form. Still, unless the worms were actually identified no way to know for sure.

When we are worried about a sick pet, unfortunately we can sometimes set a vet up to head down the wrong diagnostic/treatment pathway. You may have frontloaded the vet to suggest a dewormer despite negative test results. However, a single fecal float can miss parasites if none happen to be passed in that particular sample. It does happen. Your cham was at a "mature" age. If he'd never been tested or treated for parasites during his lifetime he could have been harboring quite a few. That goes along with an insect diet. An otherwise healthy cham can tolerate them, but a dose of antiparasitic that kills them all off at once can overwhelm the host when they all start dying.

We can also unintentionally insist that the vet do something to justify the visit. Such as give you a dewormer. Thousands of pet reptiles, including thousands of chams are given dewormers with no ill effects, even if there isn't a noticeable parasite load detected. That's often referred to as "shotgunning". Not suggesting that's ideal, just that it happens.

Once again, I am not trying to blame you for anything, just suggesting possibilities.

One reason I prefer to take my pets to a vet before they're sick is to establish a relationship with the vet while the pet is healthy. It establishes a health baseline. If/when the pet does end up with a problem, there's something to compare test results to. It also creates a relationship between owner and vet. Both learn more about the other's experience and understanding. That can save valuable time in an emergency.

Sometimes even with the best intentions, things don't turn out the way everyone hopes. Sometimes an undetected underlying vulnerability can turn a routine treatment into complications.

I know you're hurting, Maybe something in this post will help reframe things a tiny bit.

Thank you! Obviously, I don’t blame the vet completely and recognize that I could have done my own research before blindly trusting him, and I don’t believe he had ill intent behind giving him dewormers. I’m just at such a loss without him, so I may have come off as blaming him solely, but I don’t. To answer some of your questions:


He did both a float and smear, came back negative.

I will have to check the name of the dewormers, tbh I haven’t even thought to check because I’m so frazzled.

I did not take him to the vet for a necropsy, and it didn’t even cross my mind. I took him straight to a different vet to get him cremated.

He gave the first dose and then had me do the rest at home. Like stated, hindsight is always 20/20 and I absolutely should’ve done my research before continuing. But, the vet said “keep doing what you’re doing, don’t change anything” so I believe I was safe. Again, not completely blaming him, but I do believe he absolutely should’ve given me more detail/instructions.

He was tested for worms 2ish? years ago, when he had just matured, and they came back negative. Unfortunately, since Ja’Marr never showed signs of having worms, I never bothered taking him regularly to get tested. He ate captive bred everything, never wild. There is a lack of DECENT exotic vet offices here in SOMD, and it was already over an hour drive to take him to the one he was at.

Of course, there could have been other things wrong that just weren’t apparent, but I do believe the dewormers played a role in this. And, like I said, I blame both myself and the vet. I ABSOLUTELY should’ve done my research, but I also believe the vet misinformed/didn’t inform me enough about proper care during deworming.

Happy to add that my other chameleon, Joe, who is a veiled the same age as Ja’Marr is still healthy as a horse and showing zero signs of slowing down.

I recognize that I came off harsh, as if I was completely blaming the vet, but I’m just frustrated is all. I take accountability for what I should have done differently. Just wanted to get my point across to people to not make the same mistake I did, and do your own research. Thanks for your input

 

[Carlton]

Thank you! Obviously, I don’t blame the vet completely and recognize that I could have done my own research before blindly trusting him, and I don’t believe he had ill intent behind giving him dewormers. I’m just at such a loss without him, so I may have come off as blaming him solely, but I don’t. To answer some of your questions:


He did both a float and smear, came back negative.

I will have to check the name of the dewormers, tbh I haven’t even thought to check because I’m so frazzled.

I did not take him to the vet for a necropsy, and it didn’t even cross my mind. I took him straight to a different vet to get him cremated.

He gave the first dose and then had me do the rest at home. Like stated, hindsight is always 20/20 and I absolutely should’ve done my research before continuing. But, the vet said “keep doing what you’re doing, don’t change anything” so I believe I was safe. Again, not completely blaming him, but I do believe he absolutely should’ve given me more detail/instructions.

He was tested for worms 2ish? years ago, when he had just matured, and they came back negative. Unfortunately, since Ja’Marr never showed signs of having worms, I never bothered taking him regularly to get tested. He ate captive bred everything, never wild. There is a lack of DECENT exotic vet offices here in SOMD, and it was already over an hour drive to take him to the one he was at.

Of course, there could have been other things wrong that just weren’t apparent, but I do believe the dewormers played a role in this. And, like I said, I blame both myself and the vet. I ABSOLUTELY should’ve done my research, but I also believe the vet misinformed/didn’t inform me enough about proper care during deworming.

Happy to add that my other chameleon, Joe, who is a veiled the same age as Ja’Marr is still healthy as a horse and showing zero signs of slowing down.

I recognize that I came off harsh, as if I was completely blaming the vet, but I’m just frustrated is all. I take accountability for what I should have done differently. Just wanted to get my point across to people to not make the same mistake I did, and do your own research. Thanks for your input

Did the vet do both those parasite tests based on the same sample? If there didn't happen to be any parasites being shed when that sample was expelled, both tests could miss them.

Commercially produced feeder insects carry parasites. Almost impossible to eliminate them. It's a good idea to do periodic fecals on insect eating reptiles. They are constantly being exposed.

 

[cincychams]

Did the vet do both those parasite tests based on the same sample? If there didn't happen to be any parasites being shed when that sample was expelled, both tests could miss them.

Commercially produced feeder insects carry parasites. Almost impossible to eliminate them. It's a good idea to do periodic fecals on insect eating reptiles. They are constantly being exposed.

Yes, he did both tests on the same sample.

How often would you say periodically is? Once a year, every 6 months, every 3?