Big Megana is laying her eggs!

[Chameleons Northwest]

Our gravid Melleri, Megana, topped off at about 725g weight in June. We backed off to feeding her every other day, about 2 large feeders (adult cockroaches or big superworms). She dropped down to 645g, but then stopped eating almost completely for about 10 days, became bony looking, went into final egg development, and her weight and girth ballooned up to 720g (although she looked very bony). She was due on/about June 22nd.

Monday morning we gave her reptile rescue food, water, liquid calcium, and Reptaid. She laid 5 eggs that morning, but then stopped laying. Her color was pale green with pale yellow stripes, which is a stress color for her, but can also be considered the color they display when having contractions. I had a towel draped over the bin with a space exposed I could look in to without her seeing me. Besides, her eyes were closed most of the time.

By Monday afternoon she was not looking well, with closed eyes sunk deep in her head. We gave her more oral fluids and reptile rescue food, liquid calcium, and Reptaid, made an emergency vet appointment, and rushed her off to the vets. They weighed her in at 720g. She got a shot of oxytocin at about 4:15Pm, began laying eggs again on the way home, and ended up laying a total of 25 eggs on Monday. She fell asleep at her normal time Monday evening, even though I had left her light on.

The vet did not inject fluids. These are normally injected into the belly when oxytocin is given. Megana was so full of eggs the vet was concerned an egg would be pierced or other damage done. She had us continue giving food and fluids at home. The vet and I are hoping that the sunken eyes are due to a combination of factors (rather than imminent death)- 1. her not eating, 2. stress, 3. mild dehydration. She was still getting misted, and would even climb up to sit under her automatic misters more than once a day. And I saw her drink every day. But I have seen this before where stressed chameleons need a lot of extra hydration. And her final egg development may have drawn fluids off of her, too.

Also, while at the vet's we had them do a blood draw so we could check vital organs, blood levels, nutrition, etc. More on that in a separate thread later.

For those of you familiar with Meller's chameleons, you know that 25 eggs is probably about 1/3 of her clutch. We knew she had far to go.

Tuesday she was given a day of rest, a nice long shower, and more rescue food and smashed bugs. Her color became more green and she was more alert. Her eyes became more rounded and were open most of the day. She appeared more relaxed. She did not lay any more eggs. But she did cover her (now empty) hole from Monday.

Today, Wednesday, at 0730AM we headed back to the vets for another shot of oxytocin. They weighed her and she had lost about 80g since Monday. When we got home today and put Megana in her laying bin, she dug a hole and has been laying eggs in it since. Yesterday she covered Monday's hole (although I had already collected the eggs out of it when we took Megana out to feed her). We will see if she covers today's hole. We will not be removing her today for feeding.

This, of course, is not the preferred method of clutch laying. But the bloodwork will give us clues about what we've been doing wrong, and what needs to be changed in order for Megana to be in better health should she become gravid again. I think obesity was probably a factor.

When she stopped after laying those 5 eggs on Monday, and didn't lay any more for about 6 hours, I would not have intervened had she not looked so bony, and had her eyes not sunk so deeply into her head. Generally, if a girl is laying her clutch, it's best to leave her alone. But, if I had posted her photo here that day, some of you would have honestly said that you didn't have much hope for her survival, that's how bad she looked.

One thing that encouraged me Monday was that I could see a photo of her on MelleriDiscovery, taken by Mike Monge, while she laid last year's clutch, and her eyes were sunken in, then, too (though not quite as much). So, I really didn't want to believe we were losing her.

The plan is to monitor her today and tomorrow (tomorrow being a day for her to rest and recuperate again), and return to the vets on Friday. She will be examined to see if she still has eggs. The vet said it is safe to give her more oxytocin Friday as long as Megana seems to be improving rather than going downhill. If they cannot determine whether she has laid her last egg, then an X-ray may be taken.

Of the eggs she has laid so far only about 10 look viable. But thank God for those 10. And mostly thank God Megana is still with us, and improving.

PHOTO FROM JULY 3RD. You can see that her gular edema is gone. She doesn't look bad for not having hardly eaten for days, but over the weekend she went downhill very fast.:

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Why did you remove her from her hole? Females will almost always go off food for a few days when about to lay eggs. Forcing them to eat when their bodies don't want to might have bad side-affects.

Try to leave her alone in her hole, getting those eggs out sooner means she'll be eating on her own sooner.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Why did you remove her from her hole? Females will almost always go off food for a few days when about to lay eggs. Forcing them to eat when their bodies don't want to might have bad side-affects.

Try to leave her alone in her hole, getting those eggs out sooner means she'll be eating on her own sooner.

I realize a person would have had to been here to see how she deteriorated over the weekend, and how weak and bony she had become. SHe had probably eaten 1 bug in 10 days. For a chameleon her size, that is hardly life supporting. It was a complete judgment call, based on onsite observation, with a chameleon I have known for over a year.

What I realize I left out in the first post is that one of the eggs she laid Monday morning was crumpled, and another had dried yolk on the outside of it. Of course we did not know this until we lifted her out Monday afternoon. But it further gives me confidence that we made the right decision. The blood work does show elevated white counts, and the lab comment includes a remark about "cytoplasmic basophilia suggesting slight toxic change" (whatever that means). Fortunately, those were the only signs of ruptured eggs so far. I kept them and will get photos of them.

We don't plan to remove her today, and probably not tomorrow.

We did remove her yesterday to feed and water her because the vet said to.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Megana's in my thoughts

Your girl is in my thoughts and prayers. She has gotten superb care from you and the vet. She is a lucky girl. Please do keep us updated. A lot of us have gotten attached to her through your posts. Her eggs are in my prayers too.......

 

[summoner12]

With what you found of those two eggs I think you made the right call about the vet. Ruptured eggs can be a deal breaker for moma chameleons. So I am glad she seems to be getting better and having more succes. The feeding part I don't really agree with, but does it matter? Not really. I think an animal her size has a lot of mass to draw from. I am not saying you did wrong, I just don't know if I would do it myself considering her size and the stress it might induce. I say stress because I know they don't like to open up. I can't get my melleri to open up for the life of me.... that mouth is not something i want to mess around with... i've already been bitten (by complete mistake and my own fault) it doesn't feel good! lol.

I hope for a speedy recovery. And more healthy eggs.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thank you for your kind words, guys. We'll let you know how she does.

 

[Pure]

Oh wow, big Momma and her eggs are in my thoughts and prayers!

So the 10 viable eggs, does that include the last batch also? Or are you leaving them be until she is done?

Fingers and toes crossed!

 

[chams1]

Thanks for the updates, Elliot and Sandy!! I'm sure you made the right decision to intervene given the circumstances. And, it's not like we are all experts at Melleri laying eggs, so we do what we think is best for the cham at the time. This is going to have to be a "learned science".

What a roller coaster for you both!! I can't fathom it, especially since my Newbie laid a huge amount of eggs without us even knowing she was carrying (and laid them all at the same time)!! Our prayers are with you and Megana and please do keep us updated.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thanks for the updates, Elliot and Sandy!! I'm sure you made the right decision to intervene given the circumstances. And, it's not like we are all experts at Melleri laying eggs, so we do what we think is best for the cham at the time. This is going to have to be a "learned science".

What a roller coaster for you both!! I can't fathom it, especially since my Newbie laid a huge amount of eggs without us even knowing she was carrying (and laid them all at the same time)!! Our prayers are with you and Megana and please do keep us updated.

Thank you so much. Another thing I forgot to mention in the first post is that she didn't dig a hole on Monday morning. She just scattered the 5 eggs. Later that day, after the vet visit, we dug a hole for her and put her back in. She laid the next 20 eggs in it. Today, though, she dug her own hole.

Oh wow, big Momma and her eggs are in my thoughts and prayers!

So the 10 viable eggs, does that include the last batch also? Or are you leaving them be until she is done?

Fingers and toes crossed!

The 10 good looking eggs do not include the batch she laid in her hole today.

 

[Pure]

Update Sandy?

 

[PardalisGirl]

Yes, please.....

I'd like an update too. So 10 prior good eggs and maybe 20 more?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Looks like 14 good eggs so far.

Probably no eggs today, since she stopped laying some time yesterday.

What she seems to hate more than anything is her egg laying bin. It's when she's in there that her eyes sink deepest into her head and she appears most lethargic. This morning I went out there at 0430AM, when she was fast asleep, and placed her tall branch in the egg laying bin. This way she had the option of climbing out of there and getting some respite in her own territory. No sign of her all morning. The plan is to totally leave her alone today.

I passed by her door just a few minutes ago and saw that she has climbed out of the bin to the tallest area of her free range and is basking. She looks pretty good. I truely believe this bit of freedom and control of her territory will do her more good today than keeping her in that birthing bin (large trash can) all day.

She is still carrying eggs. We will likely be returning to the vet on Friday or Saturday.

 

[Pure]

Glad she is doing better.

Just curious, at what point, or is it even feasible, do you have the vet open her up to remove them. For their safety and hers?

I know that would be the worst case scenario and you want to avoid that at all cost. But like I said, I'm just curious.

 

[hailo]

im glad shes doing better thats all that really matters, the 14 eggs at this point is just a bonus. is this a normal style pregnancy for this species?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

im glad shes doing better thats all that really matters, the 14 eggs at this point is just a bonus. is this a normal style pregnancy for this species?

No, not in the least. Last year, when she was imported, she laid a clutch in the normal fashion. This year she did not, which tells me there is something wrong with our husbandry, hence the blood tests, etc. I will also endeavor, should she conceive again, to place large tubs of soil around her free range. That is not as easy as it sounds, however, since her automatic mister would tend to soak them. But if I adjust the angle of the misting heads, and place the tubs in just the right area, I think I can get it done. That would, hopefully, cause her to be more likely to lay her eggs around her due date.

This time we used the trash can method, and placed her in it when she appeared restless, and left her there for a couple of days each time. And when she wasn't in the bin, we had her tall branch in there so she could climb down into the bin if she wanted to. But she responded very negatively to this protocol.

The website MelleriDiscovery.com has excellent info on how breeding and egg laying is supposed to proceed.

Glad she is doing better.

Just curious, at what point, or is it even feasible, do you have the vet open her up to remove them. For their safety and hers?

I know that would be the worst case scenario and you want to avoid that at all cost. But like I said, I'm just curious.

The vet said that as long as she is responding to the oxytocin, we can continue it. With break days in between. I would hope that operating would not be necessary unless she stopped responding to the oxytocin. I just hate to see her have to go through this long drawn-out affair.

 

[Pure]

The vet said that as long as she is responding to the oxytocin, we can continue it. With break days in between. I would hope that operating would not be necessary unless she stopped responding to the oxytocin. I just hate to see her have to go through this long drawn-out affair.

Indeed, poor girl. This can't be fun.

Please keep us posted as to what the blood results show. I can't imagine that you are doing anything different than what Kristina has done. very confusing to say the least.

 

[chams1]

Good grief. What an ordeal. We wish you and Megana all the best. I wouldn't necessarily doubt your husbandry. You and I (as well as most on this forum) know first hand that what you do with one doesn't necessarily agree with another or that you can follow the "cham manual" to a T and there are still problems. Chams are such delicate creatures that anything could have happened from before that are affecting her now .... or there are so many scenarios of things that could be wrong with her that may not be from your husbandry.

In any event, I'm sure you and Elliot are doing what you can for her and the best of luck. Thank you for keeping us apprised.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Well, this is going to be a difficult post. Megana took a turn for the worse yesterday and passed away this morning.

She had about 60 eggs total, not a large clutch for her. They were all large (oversized) and perfectly round. Yes, round. They were not in the follicle, but in the oviducts. Normally eggs in the oviduct are oval. Eggs in the follicle are round. Something interrupted or affected the normal development of her eggs. There are about 14 that are calcified and hard, but even they are round. I should mention here that we do have a female panther that laid a clutch of perfectly round little pea shaped eggs one time and they incubated and hatched normally. So we are incubating Megana's eggs.

Some thoughts:

We have the Melleri free range in our cooler cham room, with the J. Jacksonii cages. The ambient temp in that room is set at 76f. When the room's ambient temp exceeds that the basking lights automatically turn off until the temp drops back down to 76f. I am thinking I should have had the Melleri basking lamps on their own circuit, because the Meller's are not caged and are free to move up and down, and back and forth, in a large range and select their own temperature zones throughout the day. Megana may have lost critical basking time for the correct development of her eggs. I think this is probably the most likely root of the problem and I admit I feel pretty stupid for not thinking of this when we set up the free range in this room.

Overfeeding may have caused reproductive issues with Megana. But reducing her meals in mid-June, while she was wanting to eat a lot, may have also interrupted things. She lost weight, then stopped eating altogether, and had no fat stores to give her energy when it came time for egg laying. Of her 720g this past week, 425 was an emaciated and skeletal Megana, and 295 was eggs. In retrospect I should probably not have been concerned about her weight in June, and should not have reduced her food. She had gular edema in June, which went away when I reduced her food and she lost weight, but I did notice that the photos of gravid Meller's on the MelleriDiscovery website all showed gular edema, so I don't think that should have been a concern either. We have had other species of chameleons develop gular edema while gravid, and been fine afterwards.

Lastly, on June 1st her mate, Hercules, found a weak lower corner in a 4x8x12 foot outdoor enclosure and escaped. Many adults and children from the neighborhood, even men with high powered hunting binoculars, helped search for him for days. He was never found. We even had a guy with tree climbing equipment climb the highest tree and scope things out. No Hercules. Now, he and Megana had not been dwelling together (because as her gestation progressed she became combative- so he was placed in a large cage in an adjoining room) but I had been placing them together in the free range periodically for socialization. When he disappeared completely, that may have affected her as well.

We are heartbroken. I don't think the loss of Megana has hit me yet. The loss of Hercules was especially hard because he was the one that would come down, raise on his hind legs, and reach his front legs out to me to be picked up. I was physically ill at his loss, and had nightmares. Megana was more aloof, like a cat. But she was still a nice, good, beautiful animal. Our free range is empty. It's hard to believe how quickly.

Here are photos of most of her eggs. SOme of them are already turning fuzzy. The dark ones are coated with dirt and are the ones that appear calcified. A few of them may appear oval in the photos, but they are actually round. The first 2 that she laid, one was squashed and the other had a dried glob of what looked like yolk on it, were the only 2 like that. One other egg was dented.:

 

[Julirs]

Sandy-my heart goes out to you. That is a big loss. You are in my thoughts.

 

[chams1]

Elliot and Sandy:

I have already stated how sorry I was to hear about Megana in a separate e-mail . We all know how important she was for both of you, as well as for melleri, in general. The only thing to do at this point (bear in mind, I am in no way downplaying your loss) is to use this as a learning experience. That's what I have done each time I have had a tough loss. Again, melleri (as are most species) are a "learned science". We know that you two did all you could for her and please don't second guess yourself.

Still, we are still saying prayers for the few eggs that remain. We are very sorry for this loss.