Veil keeping eyes closed during daytime.

twistr

New Member
Hi, I have had my VC for almost a year now and recently noticed him keeping his eyes closed even during the day. He is eating just fine and will only eat crickets. He is housed as of right now with a Tree Frog which has been done since day one so I know there is no issue there. I have an appointment with the vet on the 2nd but was just wanting to see about some possible options up until then. Thanks and Hope to hear any negative and/or positive feed back if possible.
 

Thompson

Avid Member
The tree frog could be stressing him maybe? Or your tree frog may be eating all of the crickets before your veleid can. Take the tree frog out and cage them separately.
 

farrahsc

New Member
Could you answer these questions and post some pics of him and your set up? This will help people figure out what's going on with him. And yes I agree the frog needs to be housed separately.

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
* Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
 

twistr

New Member
My VC is eating just fine, when feeding time comes around he has no problem with keeping his eyes open but the few days in between is when I have noticed the issue. Note: The Frog and VC have been caged together basically since day 1. Thanks for the feedback but I'm not really thinking that is the issue. Although it wouldn't hurt to try so I will let you know what happens after a couple days of this change.
 

twistr

New Member
Chameleon-Male, Veiled, appox. 11months, my care for 10months,
Handling- Once to twice a month.
Feeding- Crickets, between him and my frog they eat about 100 in about a week
Dusting-With Calcium twice a month (Fluker's Calcium with vitamin D3 Phosphorus Free)
Watering-I have a fogger that's set up on a timer for 4 times a day on low for 15-20min each time (noon, 3, 530, and 730) I mist his mouth with a water bottle straight to his mouth and on leaves. i have seen him drink every time this is done, which is also done at the same time as fogger goes off.
Fecal-A few times a week if just done eating it is about a quarter inch long dark brown to black colored other times it is white with yellow coloring. Dark brown fecal is sort of thicker then the lighter colored. He has not been tested for parasites since I got him from LPS 10months ago. (Vet visit on the 2nd of next month)
Up until now my VC has never given me any reason to think his health is at risk or issues.



Cage-Glass/screen combo. Dimensions of a 20 gallon tall
Lighting-60w blue daylight and 60w red nightlight
Zilla Blue & Red Incandescent Heat Lamp. Light schedule is day 7am-7pm and night 7pm-7am
Temperature-Nighttime69-daytime78 I have a digital thermometer that stays on at all times.
Humidity-Never gets below 30% and higher than 80% I have a meter in cage
Plants-All are fake
Location- Cage is located in Master bedroom, Not near any vents nor fans, low traffic area, the top of cage is about 4ft from floor.
Geographically-We are located in Colorado Springs,Co

Current Problem is Veiled keeping eyes closed a lot during the day.

His coloring is staying normal as a bright green, his strength seems to be normal as he is not falling off anything when walking or trying to get to the higher basking spot in cage. He sheds about twice a month sometimes even three times. Will post pics asap.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
100 crickets in a week?? That sounds excessive, unless they're tiny crickets or the frog is really ravenous.

Your cage is too small for a nearly adult veiled chameleon. Is there a basking spot with a higher temperature than 78 degrees?

You are not providing enough calcium if you're only giving it twice a month. You should provide calcium without D3 at every feeding, or at least every other feeding. The calcium with D3 that you have should be given twice a month, as well as a multivitamin in additional to plain calcium.

You did not mention any gutloading of your crickets. What do you feed the crickets? You have to work through the food chain and feed your crickets all the nutrients your cham needs like fresh greens, veggies and fruits. This site has excellent nutritional info on commonly available fruits and veggies. Aim for those higher in calcium than phosphorus and avoid oxalates or goitrogens.

You don't have a UVB light?! Chameleons need UVB rays to be able to synthesize vitamin D3 (the supplement is not enough, they have to make their own) to be able to absorb calcium from the food they eat. Your cham will die without a UVB light or properly gutloading feeders.

You chameleon has metabolic bone disease if you have not been providing UVB light or properly gutloaded crickets. It may be that your cham has compensated until now because as a prey animal it is going to hide any signs of illness until it simply doesn't have the strength to do so anymore. Your cham has had a very hard start to life without the very basics of UVB and nutrition during its peak growth phase. There should not be any light on at night, period.

You need to correct those things ASAP. Here is a good blog for you to read about some of the husbandry issues you need to improve. http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
 
Last edited:

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am totally surprised your chameleon is still alive without any uvb and you have not been supplementing it with regular calcium which is even worse. You need to post some pics of him so we can check out his limbs. Closing of eyes means your cham is ill. Ferrit gave you excellent advice. U need to purchase a reptisun 5.0 tube light. Get rid of the red night light. Your chameleon needs to sleep in the darkness. There are no lights on in the wild where they live! As far as the food a chameleon of that age should be fed about 6-7 feeders every day or even every other day. Way overfed unless the frog is eating most of them. Would like to see a pic of your set up. If you have a frog in there does that mean that you have substrate inthe bottom of the cage? Also a 20 gallon tank for a basically adult veiled is just plain cruel. He should be housed in a screen enclosure that is a size of 24 X 24 X 48. You have alot of things that need to be corrected asap if you want your chameleon to live.
 

twistr

New Member
Thank you for the advice.... Just so you all know my housing and feeding as well as the lighting has all been done on advise of the local reptile store that I bought him from. Yes, my frog does eat most of the feeders.
 

Julirs

New Member
Sounds like your local Reptile store needs a clue. Several in my immediate area are well versed on some animals but poorly informed on others. I would separate them as suggested for all of the good reasoning given.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Thank you for the advice.... Just so you all know my housing and feeding as well as the lighting has all been done on advise of the local reptile store that I bought him from.
That's not surprising at all. Pet stores are notorious for doing everything wrong themselves so they can't tell clients what they need to do, nor do they usually care if they tell them wrong info anyway. They're in it for the buck, after that they couldn't care less. There are few exceptions to the rule. Pretty much everyone starts off with improvements to make in their chameleon husbandry so don't feel like you're alone! The important thing is now you know so it's time to make those improvements, and fast. Feel free to ask more questions if you have them. We'd like to see your cham do well. :)

P.S. Once you get a UVB light it will need to be changed every six months, even if it's still shining because the UVB steadily declines while in use. It's usually depleted by 6 months even though you can't tell.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Toxins can irritate eyes and lips of humans....so I'm sure that they could irritate the eyes of a chameleon too.
Of course, its quite likely that a lack of calcium and proper light are causing issues too.
 
Last edited:

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast
Can you post some pics of you cham please? There is a good chance with no uvb and the lack of calcium supplementation that your cham could have a thing called MBD(metabollic bone disease) If that is the case you will need to get him to the vet for some calcium injections. As far as the pet stores,most of them are uneducated when it comes to chameleons and often give out the wrong advice. You are not the first person who has come to the forums with a sick chameleon due to incorrect instructions and unfortunately you will probably not be the last.
 

carol5208

Chameleon Enthusiast

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Here's some information you might find helpful......
Exposure to proper UVB, appropriate temperatures, supplements, a supply of well-fed/gutloaded insects, water and an appropriate cage set-up are all important for the well-being of your chameleon.

Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects before you feed them to the chameleon with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200604210...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
 

laurie

Retired Moderator
LLL is one of our sponsors but you don't need that package. What you need from LLL reptile is

24x24x48 Alum screen cage $80.00
18" 5.0 reptisun UVB $15.00
Calcium with no d3 $ 5.00
Herptive $ 9.00

From home depot or walmart
18" fixture for UVB blub maybe $10
Dome light fixture another $10 (looks like you already have this - i am not sure)
incandesent light bulb 60 watt $2
live ficus tree $12


That is only $134 instead and much better for your cham. I will guess the vet will need to give your cham a shot to draw calcium back into his bones. Hopefully that will be all for now.

We will all help you get his back up to speed, just hang in there with us.
You have a temp/humidify gage, 7 a misting bottle, might want to make a dripper but that is easy
 

twistr

New Member
now with that cage from LLL would i still need to use a fogger? if so how will i keep the fog from escaping the cage? or do i use a dripper only?
 

laurie

Retired Moderator
now with that cage from LLL would i still need to use a fogger? if so how will i keep the fog from escaping the cage? or do i use a dripper only?
It depends on what humidity you are able to keep with just spraying and a dripper. If you wrap 3 sides of the cage with a shower curtian it keeps the humidity up & the live plant will also help alot. You can even add a cheap Pothos for only $3 or $4. When you get the plants let me know and I will tell you how to get them ready for the cage.
 
Top Bottom