The Dating Game

[Chameleons Northwest]

We anticipate the arrival of Hercules' potential mate soon, and are wondering what is the likelihood they will reject one another. Is it usually the female that rejects the male? If they reject each other at first, do they eventually "get over it"? Can they reject each other as free-range mates? Or is the rejection limited to attempts at coupling during the breeding season? I know (from reading the MD site) that Meller's are not like most chams, who only seem to need a polite head bob to get things heating up.

She will be quarantined, of course, and then eased on into the introduction to Hercules. But, we are hoping the odds are not stacked against eventually developing a happy family.

 

[Duke]

This picture shows the 1st, 2nd, 3rd.....8th time I tried to introduce Tiki to Raj. Each lasting about 1 minute. I assure you that this is not her normal coloring. Now I know that this is a different species and may only be somewhat related, but one day it was suddenly not a problem. No reason given/shown. My point is that if at first it doesn't succeed, it may eventually get there with persistance. (Somewhat reminiscent of my courtship with my wife 20 yrs ago)

Duke

 

[studiocham]

We anticipate the arrival of Hercules' potential mate soon, and are wondering what is the likelihood they will reject one another. Is it usually the female that rejects the male?

IME, the female is both the picky one and the dominant in a pair. I doubt it is that way in 100% of the animals.

If they reject each other at first, do they eventually "get over it"?

It probably varies by enclosure size, individual stress levels, and time. Some melleri keepers say that separating them for a while can result in a friendly reunion later.

Can they reject each other as free-range mates? Or is the rejection limited to attempts at coupling during the breeding season?

Animals being individuals, anything can happen, so I can't say with absolute certainty. The beauty of a free-range is that they can choose to reject or accept each other. If one goes totally off feed and stays a bad color, they need to live even further apart.

In the off-season, meaning after eggs were laid, my pairs would sometimes hunt at opposite ends of their range, and drink, bask, roost together: no pressure, no rejections. Last summer, the male kept on courting past the usual timeframe, until the female made her feelings quite clear, as she was becoming gravid. They are back to it this winter; whatever signals passed between them must work for them.

Knowing Hercules' history, I would stay in the room during introductions and wear thick gloves to separate them. If he was too forward with an unreceptive female just out of quarantine, she could severely hurt him... or he could stress her badly.

 

[studiocham]

The beauty of a free-range is that they can choose to reject or accept each other.

I know at least three folks have said something to me along the lines of the above, and a free-range with comfortable residents is a beautiful thing indeed. In case you haven't seen it, including those lurking this thread, here's a thorough article on how to build a free-range:

http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=121

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Mike is about to receive an influx of chameleons, and so he needs to ship our female Monday. So, we should be receiving her Tuesday morning. What should my first steps be? We will be placing her in a 24x24x48" cage during her quarantine period. She has not had her fecals checked, and so we will be sending her first poop to the vet for specialized (stained) fecal exam. But when she arrives, should I place her in her cage, mist her very well for a long period of time, and then feed her? I need to ask Mike what temperatures he was keeping her at, so I can have them the same, at least initially.

 

[FL Chams]

She's kept around 78 degrees.

 

[studiocham]

What should my first steps be?

Since she's an adult, you can put her directly in a shower for a couple hours to recover from the journey. After that, have some counted prey loose in her enclosure, and put her inside, and as hard as it may be... leave the room. You can hear the rustling and tongue whaps from outside the room, and a headcount of any remaining bugs in the morning will tell you that she's eating. I even have a small mirror I use to sneak peeks around the corner into the cham room while my current pair is courting. I walked in and interrupted them four or five times now, and could just kick myself for not thinking of it sooner.

I don't suggest standing in sight and hand-spraying her in the cage because she doesnt know you or the cage. It's brightly lit, and she may not drink if she's scared of what she sees around her. A shower has no visual distractions, it's dark, you can sterilize it easily before and after her use, and it provides copious warm rain for much longer than a hand sprayer.

Since she recently laid eggs, I would be pretty generous with Calcium supplements for a week or two. Good luck with her!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

She arrived today, packed very well, and appears to have come through the trip with flying colors. She drank well upon arrival, and, so far, I think she has eaten one cricket (maybe more by now). She weighs a whopping 405g. Our Hercules only weighs 205g. She is MUCH larger than he is, and will certainly be able to hold her own when they are eventually (albeit tentatively) placed together. Pound for pound, she is strong as an ox.

I'll let you know how she does in coming days, and will post her fecal results after she provides a sample for the lab. I agree with Mike, for all the strength she exhibits, and her good color, etc., there's no reason to think there's a health issue here. But we will get her checked, none the less.

Thank you, Mike from Flchams, for our beautiful new arrival!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Megana and Hercules share a residence

Megana has had 2 clean fecals thus far. She eats great, poops great. We have not weighed her again, so don't know if she's gained.

Megana

Hercules in his courting outfit:

Hercules was introduced to the "free range" area (8'x6' area with plants on shelves and open on one side) the day before Megana arrived. Not the best timing, but we received her earlier than expected. He was fine until he realized she was in a cage in the room. Then he kept leaving the free range zone, and we'd come in to find him "resting" on power cords 10 feet in the air, or sitting on top of one of the Panther cham cages, almost every time we came into the cham lab area. We had placed lamps, cords, spinklers, out of range, and placed solid barriers on each end of the Melleri range. But it seems he was dropping to the floor, climbing up the metal-tube shelf supports, and then climbing the other cham enclosures. This was all horribly dangerous and so we thought to screen in the free range area. My husband suggested, once we saw her fecals were coming in clean, that we place Megana in the area instead, and see if Herc settles down. So we did. ANd he did.

She had already "met" him during his excursions, so his existance was no surprise to her. And, no doubt, they had carried on a few "conversations".

In their free range, we had set up several perches, and 2 sets of lights, and 3 sprinklers. We set up a soft green mesh separating the two areas so they could easily get out of eyesite of one another (they tore this down, even though I replaced it 3 times). The range is dense with plants, so they do have plenty of opportunities to "hide" from one another should they wish too.

Hercules was on the right side of the range, and so we placed her on the left side. They were 8 feet away from eachother, on separate, lighted, perches. They eyeballed eachother for a few minutes. He put on his breeding suit (green, white, yellow) and leaned way out in her direction and head bobbed for a while. She locked eyes with him and flapped her lobes real good. Then he, veeeeery slowly, crossed the space between them and approached her, she stood on him with one huge paw on his one foreleg. As he approached her he began to look quite nervous (she's so huge), and sort of made like he would turn away. I think I began to look quite nervous, too. Anyway, she made it clear that she was the boss. She then must have said a few things to him in Melleri, and stepped over him and walked around on the vines. He moved away, but then approached her again. She put her head real low, approached him real close, and head bopped him. Eventually she moved to the right side of the range (where Herc was originally).

Well, the next day she crossed the range to Herc (he was now on the left side) and stood on him again, with one leg on part of his body. She held ground on the left side of the range for a while. And he moved off to the far right side of the range. This is where they finally settled in- with Hercules on the right side of the range, and her on the left side of the range. He visits her occasionally, which she seems to tolerate pretty well (although I don't know how their conversations go, and once I taped her doing that wild "dance" thing that Melleri sometimes do). During one such visit, which I videotaped, Megana was facing Hercules when she spied an errant dubia near the window. She repositioned herself, still kind of facing Hercules, and shot at the dubia and ate it. When she repositioned herslf, Hecules moved nervously. When she shot at the dubia, he jumped. I think he thought she was going to shoot at him. Although he is sort of courting her, he has made it clear that he understands that she holds the number one position in the pecking order. He wasn't wearing his courting suit today, so he must be settling down.

HERE IS VIDEO OF MEGANA EATING WHILE HERCULES STANDS BY (they each have their own food dishes on their respective ends of the range- Herc finished his, but got more later):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT8wCQgBz2A

 

[Cainschams]

Great vid and very nice set up for them. These guys facinate me so much. Them being big and just reading about their personalties makes me want one soooooo bad. Keep us posted on them and when you do get some babies please let me know. I would much rather have a CB.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I haven't told Hercules, yet, but the soonest they would be breeding would be next winter. He is calming down now, not trying to seduce her anymore with his many charms, so I think he's getting the idea.

 

[royden]

Arg! You're making me want a melleri Sandy! I gotta come visit soon. Those pics and videos were great.

 

[studiocham]

You've mentioned some behavior I've witnessed before, and I'll try to "translate" where possible:

He was fine until he realized she was in a cage in the room. Then he kept leaving the free range zone, and we'd come in to find him "resting" on power cords 10 feet in the air, or sitting on top of one of the Panther cham cages, almost every time we came into the cham lab area.

There may have been another factor that stimulated Herc to leave the range which made it appear to coincide with her arrival. When a cham gets moved to a free-range, eventually, it will test its boundaries. How soon and far it will go is individual. Some seek the range limits right away, some take weeks. A safe bet is it will occur on the soonest day that the animal feels secure after the change or physically better/stronger. The two females here each did it on different days and to different degrees. One went no farther than the plastic sheet, realized the comfort zone was behind her, and went right back up to bask; the other explored my entire side of the studio for a full day.

We had placed lamps, cords, spinklers, out of range, and placed solid barriers on each end of the Melleri range. But it seems he was dropping to the floor, climbing up the metal-tube shelf supports, and then climbing the other cham enclosures.

Typical boundary-testing exercise in either gender. Also typical of a very desperate male melleri who knows a female is near. lol

We set up a soft green mesh separating the two areas so they could easily get out of eyesite of one another (they tore this down, even though I replaced it 3 times).

They were editing for you.

Hercules was on the right side of the range, and so we placed her on the left side. They were 8 feet away from eachother, on separate, lighted, perches. They eyeballed eachother for a few minutes. He put on his breeding suit (green, white, yellow)

Have a clear pic of this? I don't have a record of a male melleri in this combo for courtship, would love to add to the site. Only ones so far were b/w/y, with varying amounts of yellow. I've seen males immediately go green when their attentions are rejected. It may buy them time in a female's proximity/territory, if they stop the high pressure tactics and wait around for receptivity.

... and leaned way out in her direction and head bobbed for a while. She locked eyes with him and flapped her lobes real good. Then he, veeeeery slowly, crossed the space between them and approached her, she stood on him with one huge paw on his one foreleg. As he approached her he began to look quite nervous (she's so huge), and sort of made like he would turn away. I think I began to look quite nervous, too. Anyway, she made it clear that she was the boss. She then must have said a few things to him in Melleri, and stepped over him and walked around on the vines. He moved away, but then approached her again. She put her head real low, approached him real close, and head bopped him. Eventually she moved to the right side of the range (where Herc was originally).

First, it's great to hear that in all his lonely days, he hasn't forgotten how to be a gentleman. He's taking all the little steps he should to test her receptivity instead of rushing in. Second, her two disincentive displays are even seen in juvenile melleri. The stepping-over is something you'll see any-aged dominant melleri do to gently reassert itself. Some will rest a forefoot on the head of another melleri, then both go about normal behaviors without drama. Apparently, she thought he wasn't getting her first message and had to resort to the rostral punch.

The punch looks and sounds bad, but when you consider it has been observed right before a successful breeding... it's not as scary. It is a part of the melleri courtship and female-testing-the-male's-fitness thing.

Not to get hopes up too much, but don't rule out that she could double-clutch this year. Proximity of a suitable male could start her ovulating and set her on the North American Summer cycle.

He visits her occasionally, which she seems to tolerate pretty well (although I don't know how their conversations go, and once I taped her doing that wild "dance" thing that Melleri sometimes do).

Do you mean reared up on the hindlegs, waving the body, pinched forefeet? If so, she was really driving home her point. That is an extreme display.

When she shot at the dubia, he jumped. I think he thought she was going to shoot at him.

He has good reason to flinch. Another disincentive display is shooting the opponent's face with the tongue.

He wasn't wearing his courting suit today, so he must be settling down.

I thought this about my current pair, but it turned out that he had just changed the time of day that he was putting on his suit. He was getting closer to her and able to touch her during the middle of the day, so he was concentrating all his energy to midday courtship. I found my "settled down" male in full suit, perching on the female, on lunchbreaks.

May I link your video from the MD? We are in the midst of adding a video library and link page for those who have uploads.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

"He visits her occasionally, which she seems to tolerate pretty well (although I don't know how their conversations go, and once I taped her doing that wild "dance" thing that Melleri sometimes do). "

"Do you mean reared up on the hindlegs, waving the body, pinched forefeet? If so, she was really driving home her point. That is an extreme display."

No, there's this thing I've seen her do and Hercules do, as well. He used to do it when I hand misted him. When the warm water first reached him he would do this: In quick succession he would lift each foot up and place it back down on the perch. At the same time he would kind of sway back and forth by a few degrees. It lasts about 20 seconds. The overall result is a sudden burst of fluid movement which quickly subsides. Sometimes he would do a minor version consisting of the foot work, without the body movement. He would then settle in for his shower and bask in its warmth and drink, etc. It's not like he did it and than ran off in a huff. And it's not like I would sneak up on him and surprise him. I took it to mean an expression of pleasure. Sort of an emotional outburst. But then Megana did it when they were first getting aquainted. (I just now reviewed the video of her doing it.) After the lobe flapping and foot stomping. They were both on "her side". He was approaching her, reaching for a vine that leads to her perch. She moved to a heavy vine adjacent to that one, and about 20 inches away (so she was directly across from him), and did it, and then slowly walked off. It definitely caused him to stop dead in his tracks. It's not a close-up video, so she may not have been doing the same thing Hercules did, but it had the same look to it.

May I link your video from the MD? We are in the midst of adding a video library and link page for those who have uploads.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that would be great.

 

[studiocham]

In quick succession he would lift each foot up and place it back down on the perch. At the same time he would kind of sway back and forth by a few degrees. It lasts about 20 seconds. The overall result is a sudden burst of fluid movement which quickly subsides. Sometimes he would do a minor version consisting of the foot work, without the body movement. He would then settle in for his shower and bask in its warmth and drink, etc.

Do you mean the shuffle? They sort of shuffle their feet, then lower their rostrum, curl up the tail, and start drinking. I have seen the body sway with that shuffle when the water is not the perfect temperature, or when a bug walks over them.

I'm off to see if this one is among your youtube vids.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

No, it isn't on youtube yet. I am uploading it now, even as I write this. Unfortunately, Megana is difficult to see. She is in the upper left of the treed area, and you really can't see her until she starts moving. And then you can't really see what she's doing because of the poor quality. Hercules is easy to spot, stretching across an open area between vines. He stretched and hung there awhile, almost as if he were asking for permission to proceed. Her answer to him was this dance. The foot work is a sort of shuffle. The body is swaying back and forth by just a few degrees, and the tail is waving back and forth, furling and unfurling. I checked Youtube and it's still uploading.

Uh oh, don't tell me that all that time Hercules was doing it I had the water temp wrong. Hmmmm. He didn't do it everytime. I guess I got it right more often than not.

 

[studiocham]

He looks black, white, and yellow- to me- in the long video...?

He is being extremely "polite" and showing her his color, stretching, climbing. Her color is so green, it may be too similar to receptive color, and her disincentive behaviors are contrasting the color signal.

Notice how much her eye on the side away from him (camera side) is moving. She's very interested in what is happening, but in a positive way. She's not gaping nor black. Could you tell from where you were standing, if her jaw or neck/lobe area was vibrating in short little pulses, every so often?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Could you tell from where you were standing, if her jaw or neck/lobe area was vibrating in short little pulses, every so often?

No, I couldn't see anything that subtle from where I was. Yes, that must be the black striping. I was seeing it as a very dark green, but it is a black, yellow, white display.

 

[studiocham]

Uh oh, don't tell me that all that time Hercules was doing it I had the water temp wrong. Hmmmm. He didn't do it everytime. I guess I got it right more often than not.

Some do it when the texture of the water falling is tickling/surprising them. Like a super fine mist can be ticklish to adults, but just right for neonates... And the rainfall that adults relish makes neonates do the shuffle. Go figure.

In the contexts I have seen, it's not been a display that communicates to other animals. It's been a personal irritation reaction, but so low level that no spots come up. Not a display of pleasure, IME. I'm wracking my brain to remember if I've seen adults do this at each other. I could be thinking of a completely different thing, will check out the vid shortly!

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Here's the link, but you really can't see what she's doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1t-PH3tC2A