Please Help - Chameleon doesn't seem healthy

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
So here are some more photos from today, I used a flash when taking most of them and took him out into better lighting. This is about 24hrs after I put the Olive Oil on the dry patches. You can see the edges are white again where the scales are peeling up- it is not raised all the way around like ring-worm. But maybe it is some kind of fungal? The darkness and the placement of the spots are just so weird. I don't know why the vet didn't think it was anything more than a bad shed. I asked her about fungal and she said it didn't look like a burn, mites or any of that. I don't know what to do.

That is definitely not a burn. Thanks for the clearer pics. Im on camp fungal now.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Question -- if this was a burn, thermal or ub, wouldn't it present on the casque or along the spine? I've never seen anything like this do I am no help here, just along to learn.

If they are vertical baskers, they will get a hot spot in the center of their body when they lean sideways and look like pancakes. If the owner puts the stick directly under the bulb, they just stay centered on the stick, and those chams get the casque and spine burnt.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
I think someone wanted pics of my free range. Here it is when i dont have the hibiscus in it.
245209
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@FrozenRain00 said..."Never heard of that stuff- I will look into it. Silva dense and flamazine. I may need to find a new vet tho. :/"...first there's a type-O in my post...its silvadene not silva dense...sorry...spell check gives me problems sometimes. Flamazine is the cream they use on humans for serious burns and it's good for chameleons too because it can be used anywhere on them. It also kills some fungal, bacterial infections as well...so if it's a burn and gets a secondary infection it covers both.you will need a prescription from the vet to get it likely though.

With the new photos you posted I'm wondering if it could be fungal...but again...we on here can only guess...
@jamest0o0 said..."Fungal also often has that raised border around it too. Like when you see ring worm with people"... When the first chameleon I had with CANV that started the studies had a sample taken they thought that it might be ring worm. Funny about that eh?
The OP still needs tests to be done to determine what is really involved if it's more than just a poor shed.

@Mawtyplant said "What? he had worms? how unusefull to deworm an animal without parsites" ... I agree. Even if it did have a parasite without identifying the parasite
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
So here are some more photos from today, I used a flash when taking most of them and took him out into better lighting. This is about 24hrs after I put the Olive Oil on the dry patches. You can see the edges are white again where the scales are peeling up- it is not raised all the way around like ring-worm. But maybe it is some kind of fungal? The darkness and the placement of the spots are just so weird. I don't know why the vet didn't think it was anything more than a bad shed. I asked her about fungal and she said it didn't look like a burn, mites or any of that. I don't know what to do.
@jannb @JacksJill What are your thoughts on the images the OP posted in #89 above. So these spots came on suddenly. I think most of us are leaning more towards fungal. Have you seen anything like this? For the OP where exactly are you located we may be able to assist you with a Vet recommendation. @jannb has some amazing contacts in this area. :)
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've personally have had ringworm, it's definitely not raised like that. If you rub your finger over it, it's flush with the rest of his body, but it is dry/flakey. It's never had a yellow or green hue. Wouldn't fungal cause for some itchiness as well? I know ring-worm itched like a mother..%^%%&..

Funny story about the ring-worm incident tho- my entire family got it when I was a kid from a kitten my parents bought at a local dive pet store. Guy had a bunch of Persians dumped at the back door and he clearly didn't have a vet look at them. The kitten needed a ton of help, then we all got ring-worm- AND all our other pets got it too! (another cat and a dachshund)- THEN the dachshund almost died because she was allergic to the medicine the vet prescribed. In the end, the Persian ended up being a complete douchebag and only liked my sister. I'm sure my parents were thrilled with that fiasco lol. But yes, I do know what ring-worm looks like- I am also working on a Master's into Nursing so some of this stuff I am familiar with- in humans at least. I haven't seen any of those signs. As soon as the olive oil wears I will post photos of the spots though for clarification.
LOL that was actually my experience with ring worm. My daughter was 8 and I adopted her a kitten. Within a week of having it she had ringworm all over her body because the kitten slept right up on top of her. Before I knew it I was treating everyone along with other pets, my child, my self. I think I bought calamine lotion in bulk for a good 2 months. Was not the best experience. :hilarious:

I have tagged two other very experienced members. You have a lot already giving feedback and it would seem most are leaning really to the fungal angle. If you post your location one of the members I tagged may be able to give you a good Vet in your location or near it. :)
 

JacksJill

Moderator
Staff member
Sorry, haven't read all of the thread since the beginning. Unless they have continued to grow I would still say burn. A fungal infection will spread, a burn whether heat or UVB induced will remain the same once the source is removed.
A biopsy would be the most definitive way to get a diagnosis. If it is improving then I wouldn't put the chameleon through that if it's spreading then it might be worth it.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
@jannb @JacksJill What are your thoughts on the images the OP posted in #89 above. So these spots came on suddenly. I think most of us are leaning more towards fungal. Have you seen anything like this? For the OP where exactly are you located we may be able to assist you with a Vet recommendation. @jannb has some amazing contacts in this area. :)

Hey becca, no disrespect to anyone. You know I think so highly of you and our other friends here. And I don't think it was a big deal either how we had a little conversation, but I just wanted to say something regarding @kinyonga . she is by far one of the most experienced keepers on this forum, but hasn't been around for a while. Definitely a valued member that I have looked up to on here. I hope we can all get along going forward and learn from each other. We need more older members like kinyonga to hang around and I'd hate for there to be any fights between us all.
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hey becca, no disrespect to anyone. You know I think so highly of you and our other friends here. And I don't think it was a big deal either how we had a little conversation, but I just wanted to say something regarding @kinyonga . she is by far one of the most experienced keepers on this forum, but hasn't been around for a while. Definitely a valued member that I have looked up to on here. I hope we can all get along going forward and learn from each other. We need more older members like kinyonga to hang around and I'd hate for there to be any fights between us all.
I have no problem with her. I just felt it was un necessary to bring it up the way she did and honestly that derailed it more then you making a joke or a few members commenting about liking me. I did not tag her in the above comment because she was already involved in the thread. I agree about the more experienced members being around and contributing. I just did not like feeling like I was being called out for being liked because we as a community are quite close. My skill set is in basic husbandry and I am still learning. I have never said I was some all knowing Cham keeper. I am always the first to say I am still learning.
 

Mawtyplant

Chameleon Enthusiast
The 'burn' appeared before the halogen bulb was installed. This was noted in the OP
Ok so take care with your new bulb and test it before, 100w bulb still really high what was the distances between him and the light?
What medications are used for fungal infections on chameleons? Are there any over-the-counter versions I can try to see if there is an improvement?
im still convince this is a burn.. 100w flicker close to enclosure or halogène a bit higher can both have consequences of a thermal burn (your basking need to be set in horizontal position too if not it will die much more faster) this is a minor burn I think but take it in consideration. Anyway if it’s fugal my same hygienes advices app’y Except you can use stuff like to treat woman infection (canesta something like that ) but before using any treatment what so ever (like anti fungal oral treatment who can have majors consequences.. I suggest you to go to a good exotic vet and ask for a real advices and real test (they will grab small piece of the skin and test for bacteria of fungus)
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I have no problem with her. I just felt it was un necessary to bring it up the way she did and honestly that derailed it more then you making a joke or a few members commenting about liking me. I did not tag her in the above comment because she was already involved in the thread. I agree about the more experienced members being around and contributing. I just did not like feeling like I was being called out for being liked because we as a community are quite close. My skill set is in basic husbandry and I am still learning. I have never said I was some all knowing Cham keeper. I am always the first to say I am still learning.

I wasn't disagreeing with how you reacted or anything, I didn't even bother to read what posts it was regarding. I read about 5% of what is actually posted. I simply wanted to point out that she is a valuable member and that while I agree with your side, I think we should make an effort to get along. As we've mentioned before, too many times old and experienced members are being pushed away or ignored. We spend so much time talking about making newbs happy, but not enough about keeping the members that made this forum possible. If you look back at all of us cham enthusiast threads from years ago, you'll see we thoroughly posted thread after thread, there was a time I saw kinyonga and others post in almost every single thread, as did I. I don't expect anything for it, but I try to at least give the members that know more than me the benefit of the doubt, they've earned it and made my success with chameleons possible through their knowledge. Anyway, I can see you're a little annoyed, but I didn't intend it that way.

Honestly, just trying to bring together some of our bigger forum posters. I think it is important in regards to the health of the community. I wasn't making a comment about your knowledge or anything like that, just that in this case, this person has helped me and others so much, that I would feel wrong if we all fought.

Anyway, now I'm taking this thread off topic. Sorry, don't want to get on kinyongas hit list. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
I wasn't disagreeing with how you reacted or anything, I didn't even bother to read what posts it was regarding. I read about 5% of what is actually posted. I simply wanted to point out that she is a valuable member and that while I agree with your side, I think we should make an effort to get along. As we've mentioned before, too many times old and experienced members are being pushed away or ignored. We spend so much time talking about making newbs happy, but not enough about keeping the members that made this forum possible. If you look back at all of us cham enthusiast threads from years ago, you'll see we thoroughly posted thread after thread, there was a time I saw kinyonga and others post in almost every single thread, as did I. I don't expect anything for it, but I try to at least give the members that know more than me the benefit of the doubt, they've earned it and made my success with chameleons possible through their knowledge. Anyway, I can see you're a little annoyed, but I didn't intend it that way.

Honestly, just trying to bring together some of our bigger forum posters. I think it is important in regards to the health of the community. I wasn't making a comment about your knowledge or anything like that, just that in this case, this person has helped me and others so much, that I would feel wrong if we all fought.

Anyway, now I'm taking this thread off topic. Sorry, don't want to get on kinyongas hit list. :ROFLMAO:
Not a problem I am due for a break in the forum. After all I would hate to step on anyone's toes. Thank you for pointing it out that I was clearly so out of line with you reading 5% of what was posted. My apologies to all including the OP.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
@Beman

Becca, c'mon now. We're friends lol... my post was speaking in hypotheticals. I didn't mean you were pushing people away!!! That's ridiculous. You were just saying we were all acting too sensitive, do you really think that I think so lowly of you? o_O I guess I could see how reading into my post could be taken the wrong way, I'm sorry for that, I don't think I always word things over text very well. I didn't expect this to be a problem. but you should know me better too... I just didn't want it to lead the wrong way. I don't think you've pushed anyone away, nothing even close to that. I agreed with what you were getting at, I just wanted to show my respect for kinyonga since she is someone I learned a ton from on here and she was gone for a long time.
 

KobaOregonherper

Chameleon Enthusiast
There are quite a few husbandry issues here for a Veiled. Besides what has already been stated. Please do not use olive oil on his body. Your greasing him then putting direct heat on him. They are dry shedders so this is complicating the issues for him to shed properly.

It will take me a while to go through the whole health form.

Lol I saw the terra branches and went "ooooo Bemans not gonna like that!"
 
Ok- long update but here's what I've gathered over the past couple of days

Saturday I inquired with the owner of the large midwest reptile swap about Houdini's condition. He asked me to bring him in and recommended the vet on-site when I walked in at the door. This veterinarian informed me that the clinic I took Houdini to 3 weeks ago was unfortunately known for bad advice and accidentally killing off animals. Told me what their name previously was and where they were originally located. I guess they move every few years- and I knew the location of the previous site so I'm a little disappointed I was taken for 200 bucks and not given resolution with Houdini. Their reviews were great when I did my research- but if it IS the same clinic and moved, then I know exactly what he was referring to because they were a nightmare clinic everyone in town avoided.

This new mobile vet said he had over 15 years working with exotic animals as his specialty. I trust the swap coordinator that referred me, so besides being extremely put off this new vet's attitude and ego when I first met him, I stuck around and forked over another $60 for a consult. He told me the potentials, options for testing and treating (based on whatever it could be), and an idea of the cost depending on what it was.

He wanted to rule out the following:
Bacterial/Fungal
Burn
Potential Skin Cancer

There were a couple of things in-between burn and cancer but these 3 were the main.

Advised that I could try a topical cream- total cost around $200.
Said I could do cream and an antibiotic injection- around $350.
Said we should also do a strip test (in addition to the above meds) to take a sample of the skin and see if anything grows for more specific treatment- looking around $500.
Said if it was something we couldn't figure out with that, then a biopsy for cancer cells and potential chemo ranging in the thousands could be attempted.
I had a near heart attack. I love Houdini and I made sure I had the time and money to care for him- but those prices are way more than I can afford just to 'sample theories,' and there's no way I could afford chemo- let alone would want to put him through that hell.

He explained the reason prices were so high were because pets don't have insurance so costs are at pharmaceutical cost. I asked this vet specifically what the antibiotic cream he was going to prescribe was (because I was prescribed some about a year ago for an infected surgical site and had a decent amount of creams leftover). The stuff he was going to give me was good for both burns and bacterial. It ended up being 'SSD' as prescribed by doctors for humans. I got super excited because I had a tube at home, he said I could definitely try it. I applied it immediately on Saturday and the past two days Houdini seems less in pain and is starting to show his pretty green coloring rather than the dark browns I've seen the past months. Whether it is a burn or bacterial, it is hard to tell under the cream, but it does look like the spots are improving. I will have to remove the excess today and reapply, so I'll have a better idea of the spot regression at that time. I'm also going to measure it and keep track to see. If this doesn't work, unfortunately, I may have to say goodbye to Houdini and just do my best to give him the best quality of life until he passes. It will break my heart but I cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on just figuring out what it is, let alone adding in the expenses for chemo, etc... I am already easily 2k into him a year in.

The vet told me he could do a house call to specifically point out adjustments needed for his setup, but that was also not an option at the moment. So thankfully he looked at my photos (seemed resilient at first) and gave me some advice (vastly different from some of what you on here noted). He said he was going specifically by the climate of the region veiled's are from.

So that being said, I've bitten down on the bullet and I brought dubia roaches into my home (and kill me now... if they get out- I WILL go psycho). I also got some more superworms, large crickets, and blue hornworms. Hopefully the variety in the diet with help him a little more with healing AND to avoid monotony. I also purchased and will be rigging up a 30" vertical Reptisun T5 UVB hood and trying a ceramic heating bulb on a dimmer instead of the current bulb/spot I have for basking. I asked him if he truly thought the ceramic would be the best since they are drawn to the light and he said it would be the most consistent, he had seen the best results with them, and that Houdini should be drawn to the heat more-so than the light. He also advised I add a second basking spot when I upgrade the cage size- but that won't be available for a few more months when I can figure out my apartment setup. One thing I did find strange- he said to keep the ceramic bulb on all night and try NOT to let the temps drop too low. Upon researching the region the temps do fall at night, so that piece of advice I'm a little leary on- thoughts on this?

Thank you all again for your advice- please just keep your fingers crosses and let's hope Houdini continues to improve!
 

Highway61

Avid Member
He wanted to rule out the following:
Bacterial/Fungal
Burn
Potential Skin Cancer

There were a couple of things in-between burn and cancer but these 3 were the main.

So for 60 bones the mobile vet was able to rule out what Houdini doesn't have? Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no doctor!) but he's treating something he's not able to diagnose?

Best of luck to you and Houdini, you two deserve better!
 
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