Investigation In Progress

Teal Beauty

Avid Member
Many of you will read this post and continue to scroll on by. Some of you, truly knowing us and attempting to understand our situation may empathize, while others may still not care to even give it a second thought, but I sure hope you do! This is a very serious situation and has had a big impact on a lot of people – and until you have been publicly tried and crucified (and that is our perspective on what happened by a select group of forum members), and we pray you never are, you will never fully understand what we have been going through. It has taken us some time to process everything that has taken place to gather our thoughts in an organized fashion.

Many of you may have already been made aware of what we are about to share. There has been a very negative, heated and emotionally charged situation unfolding here on Chameleon Forums regarding a transaction that took place between us and another member. As you know Nuts Over Chameleons has offered a 10 Day Health Guarantee for all chameleons we sell, this being one of the longest health guarantees offered by any reputable chameleon breeder. In addition, we have provided 24/7 customer support and have never sent a chameleon off without a follow up as to how he/she is adjusting. Those of you who have received chameleons from us also know that you have received updates throughout the entire process (from the day you select the chameleon you want, including the day your chameleon is shipped up until the day that chameleon arrives in your care).

On June 25th we sent a chameleon off to a customer and that customer received the chameleon on June 26th. That customer was very pleased with the chameleon received and even voluntarily posted an unpacking video which clearly illustrated their excitement! We have that video and excerpts from all communication received, but in order to preserve the dignity of our customer, will not be publicly sharing those here at this time or any further time unless made to do so. We will however share only that which has been made public by this individual while still respectfully removing identifiers and names. Please do note the lapse of time mentioned by the customer in the one publicly shared communication.

We have decided to respond with this thread, not to bring any harm about , but for the sole purpose of helping to clear our name of any wrong doing (whether willfully or unknowingly). In addition we feel compelled to share a bit more information about Coccidia. We feel that there is quite a lot of info out and available on this parasite but still not enough on life cycle, acquisition and pathophysiology related to chameleons. On day 15 (5 days beyond our health guarantee) the above mentioned customer notified us that their chameleon tested positive for the parasite Coccidia. What we do know for certain, is that Coccidia is highly contagious between reptiles. In fact, as with Bearded Dragons, it is quite common for chameleons to carry low numbers of Coccidia oocysts in their GI system and that either reptile, can be completely asymptomatic with these low numbers. These numbers may be low enough that they go undetected and if detected, low enough and in the absence of symptoms, treatment is not warranted. We also know that major stressors can cause an otherwise undetectable case of Coccidia to flare up to where levels are detectable and in some cases, exacerbated to a degree that symptoms present and serious illness results. With Bearded Dragons, it is recommended that fecal samples are not collected and tested until the animal has adequately had time to adjust to their new environment. What has been observed is that Coccidia oocysts increase during the stressful transitional phase and then once the animal has adjusted (assuming that their new environment is suited for their needs), their immune system kicks into high gear and the number of oocysts decline without any visible symptoms or harm to the animal. Another gray area is how long it takes for the oocysts to present in the stool of the exposed chameleon. In mice, this can occur as soon as 2 to 3 days after exposure. In chameleons, there is still a lack of available research in this area. We also know that certain food sources are more susceptible to spreading this parasite to chameleons (if contaminated) but that does not make all other food sources immune to the possibility. Just because the risk may be less, and just because we are confident in our husbandry and where we receive and how we keep our feeders, as well as have confidence in our quarantine routine and follow strict protocol, does not mean that it cannot be lurking and lying in wait.

Well now, given all of the above information, you can imagine the dilemma at hand. You may now be asking, what it is that we are doing on our side to ensure that we are able to continue to provide healthy animals to our customers. Our response first and foremost, is to conduct a thorough quarantine of possibly infected animals and perform fecal exams. WE ARE REASSURED IN THAT TO DATE, WE HAVE NO SIGNS/SYMPTOMS, OR POSITIVE RESULTS THAT COULD INDICATE THAT WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH COCIDIA IN HOUSE. We always encourage customers to seek veterinary exams and have regular fecals performed, and NEVER have we had a customer return with a positive fecal for any parasite. But due to the seriousness of this condition, never mind the accusations, we will be following a meticulous and methodical in-house evaluation of our collection. We will be revising our policies and guarantees and offering incentives for responsible chameleon ownership within our customers. More information will be shared at a later time as a lot of investigation and processing must take place.

Those of you who have come to know us and trust us, know that we pride ourselves in setting the bar high for healthy chameleons. No stone will be left unturned! We will be thorough, we will be transparent, and we will post updates as information becomes available.

As chameleon keepers and hobbyists, please take from the sharing of this experience the following: (1) Quarantine ALL newly acquired chameleons regardless of where or who you received them from (no breeder/seller regardless of how reputable is above a hidden disease). (2) Pre-arrange your first vet exam before the arrival of your chameleon and inquire with your reptile veterinarian as to when an appropriate time would be to conduct your first fecal in the absence of symptoms or adequate stool availability at time of visit. We recommend that should you desire that extra peace of mind, you collect a stool sample as early on as possible. (3) Be vigilant in what you expose your chameleon to during their quarantine. Isolate and do not free-range your chameleon where they can be at risk for potential stress and further contamination while adjusting to their new environment. (4) And finally, never be afraid to ask questions of your breeder. A good breeder will be eager to address your concerns. Allow your breeder/seller guarantee to protect you and be forthcoming with ANY and ALL developments during that time.

On a more personal note, I would like to reiterate, that Nuts Over Chameleons is a family business! We are ALL equally invested in time, love and care of our chameleons and each play different roles in maintaining our chameleons and handling business matters! It is a TEAM effort, so please never be offended when we respond as such. Truth be told, it has never gotten easy to sell a chameleon and the ONLY comfort that we receive out of each rehoming is the comfort from knowing that our chameleon/(s) are finding a good home! Those who have purchased from us, know that it is not a quick process. There are many questions asked and many suggestions made before a chameleon leaves our hands. As for me, Jessica, you will not see my hands in any of the pictures taken the day a chameleon is packaged and shipped, due to the fact that it is my recognized weakness as a result of my attachment. So please, do not think for a second, that receiving the news of a loss under the above mentioned circumstances is anything less than devastating to our team. It will take quite some time for us to be able to move beyond this experience as well.

Upon finishing our lengthy response, if you were a customer of ours and feel compelled to share your positive experience below, it would be greatly appreciated. If for any reason you feel that your experience with our company was anything less than exceptional, please drop us a personal message and let us engage in a conversation about how we could have exceeded your expectations, as that is truly our end goal! We respectfully ask that our thread be kept appropriate and for the moderators to be so kind as to help us achieve this goal by removing any negativity that may result from our response to this emotionally charged situation.

Thank you for the time you took to read our response!

The Nuts Over Chameleons Team
 

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Alright, so, you'd allow positive feedback, but remove any mentions of a negative experience? Hmm. :unsure: Can't say I agree with that at all!

I appreciate you taking your time to explain your position, though. I hope that no other chameleons in your collection are affected, and that you never experience something like this again. Lessons to be learned on all sides!
 
Nuts over chameleons will still be my first choice when it come to panthers! I have purchased 1 chameleon from them and received outstanding customer service. Not only did I get a beautiful chameleon from you guys I also got a friend. Matt and I still talk to this very day and he has always helped me out and given advice when I needed it. I truly believe that your family business is less about the money and more about the satisfaction of impacting other people in a positive manner with these wonderful animals. Thank you guys for all you do!
 
Nuts over chameleons will still be my first choice when it come to panthers! I have purchased 1 chameleon from them and received outstanding customer service. Not only did I get a beautiful chameleon from you guys I also got a friend. Matt and I still talk to this very day and he has always helped me out and given advice when I needed it. I truly believe that your family business is less about the money and more about the satisfaction of impacting other people in a positive manner with these wonderful animals. Thank you guys for all you do!
Thank you so much! We deeply appreciate it! This has not been easy!
 
Alright, so, you'd allow positive feedback, but remove any mentions of a negative experience? Hmm. :unsure: Can't say I agree with that at all!

I appreciate you taking your time to explain your position, though. I hope that no other chameleons in your collection are affected, and that you never experience something like this again. Lessons to be learned on all sides!

Thank you. After the last emotionally charged thread we would very much like to move on and for this entire nightmare to be a positive learning experience for all involved. We delayed our posting so that we would allow some time for the high emotions to settle. As for any negative comments or experiences, we invite feedback but would really prefer to handle our business matters on a personal level. We really strive for peace, and contrary to the image that some may have, we only desire the best outcomes for our customers and our chameleons.
 
Alright, so, you'd allow positive feedback, but remove any mentions of a negative experience? Hmm. :unsure: Can't say I agree with that at all!

So what they asked was that you can reach out to them personally so they can do what most business owners would like to do, discuss it privately and come to an agreement if needed. Negative experiences are not going to be removed unless a site rule is broken. Having said that, as many of you on here know there have not been many negative things about these members or their business. There has been an unfortunate situation that has occurred, and perhaps this was not handled the way I would have liked (not placing blame), but the reality is most of you do not have all the information to make a judgement. To Matt and Jess and their boys, I'm sorry that you are dealing with this right now, but I hope you can look at this from the other perspective as well. To everyone else involved, this has been a horrible ordeal and hopefully will be a lesson for many to learn from in the future. Please keep this thread civil and remember the site rules when posting.
 
Thank you. After the last emotionally charged thread we would very much like to move on and for this entire nightmare to be a positive learning experience for all involved. We delayed our posting so that we would allow some time for the high emotions to settle. As for any negative comments or experiences, we invite feedback but would really prefer to handle our business matters on a personal level. We really strive for peace, and contrary to the image that some may have, we only desire the best outcomes for our customers and our chameleons.

I know many people have successfully purchased and raised quality chameleons from you guys. I'm just saying that anyone can come off as a good, caring salesman when things go well. The way a business deals with a negative outcome is telling, and I'm not at all impressed with the way this situation has been handled. All feedback should be taken into account when deciding upon a breeder.

That's the last I'll comment on this matter.
 
I beleive in you guys beiing professional!! How long have you guys, nuts over chameleons been in the business? And how many sold chams success stories?? I know a few very good breeders in the valley and bay area that love you guys and have never had a problem!! I one day will be glad to purchase one from you when I need new blood lines!!! I don't know any breeder besides my personal friends that would devote so much free time answering questions via personal phone...again thank you matt, you have helped me out tremendously
 
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Thank you. After the last emotionally charged thread we would very much like to move on and for this entire nightmare to be a positive learning experience for all involved. We delayed our posting so that we would allow some time for the high emotions to settle. As for any negative comments or experiences, we invite feedback but would really prefer to handle our business matters on a personal level. We really strive for peace, and contrary to the image that some may have, we only desire the best outcomes for our customers and our chameleons.
If you wanted to move on from it then why even make this post? This post is just drudging everything back up again. There was really nothing said that hasnt already been said.
 
I hope you guys can resolve this problem so there is no more pulling take a side, the childish bashing should stop!! because the reality of it, the animals are alive organic and with that anything is possible, Matt, can you replace her cham?? Is that an option??
 
I hope you guys can resolve this problem so there is no more pulling take a side, the childish bashing should stop!! because the reality of it, the animals are alive organic and with that anything is possible, Matt, can you replace her cham?? Is that an option??

I think the community for the most part has been great about this. Please don't quote me, but I don't think that would be an option for the other party involved. She has been through a lot also.
 
I beleive in you guys beiing professional!! How long have you guys, nuts over chameleons been in the business? And how many sold chams success stories?? I know a few very good breeders in the valley and bay area that love you guys and have never had a problem!! I one day will be glad to purchase one from you when I need new blood lines!!! I don't know any breeder besides my personal friends that would devote so much free time answering questions via personal phone...again thank you matt, you have helped me out tremendously
Thank you!
 
I hope you guys can resolve this problem so there is no more pulling take a side, the childish bashing should stop!! because the reality of it, the animals are alive organic and with that anything is possible, Matt, can you replace her cham?? Is that an option??
Salty I dont think you understand the whole situation of what happened. No one is upset because a cham got sick. Like you said, that happens. It's the response, or lack thereof, to the sick cham that is the issue.
 
I find it immensely inappropriate that you would go out of your way to encourage people to post their positive feedback right now. This is not the time or place. Most of what you wrote was just lovely and swell, but to end it by soliciting positive and only positive feedback... That is tone deaf at best. I have been biting my tongue through the duration of this devastating experience because I truly do not understand the nuances. I am not a directly involved party, so have refrained from making any condemnations or assumptions. But now, in this mourning period, to ask people for praise... It's very disappointing to see and strikes me as highly unprofessional. "If for any reason you feel that your experience with our company was anything less than exceptional, please drop us a personal message and let us engage in a conversation [...]" is just a roundabout way of saying "Please don't post anything bad about us." To me, the very clear subtext here is "We don't want anyone seeing the less-than-stellar stuff." You cannot have the best of both worlds. Either all feedback should be private or none of it should be.

It's also not how the internet works. It's not how reviews work. If you are only open to positive feedback being posted publicly, it does not matter if negative experiences get dealt with behind the scenes. The public will then only see the positive experiences. This will mislead people who don't know better into believing that negative experiences with a company don't exist. Companies get both positive and negative reviews all the time and those who are considering doing business with said company deserve to have access to everyone's experiences, both positive and negative. In fact, this is an essential components in prospective customers making an informed decision. Discouraging honest, negative experiences from being posted sounds an awful lot like censorship to me.

All I'm saying is that that last paragraph should never have been written. It added nothing to the meaningful content of the many paragraphs above. That is what (most) people are taking offense to here. I was with you all the way til nearly the end and then felt whiplashed by the change of tone and intention. I may regret posting this, and have spent more time editing my reply than I care to admit, but I believe wholeheartedly in transparency.
 
I find it immensely inappropriate that you would go out of your way to encourage people to post their positive feedback right now. This is not the time or place. Most of what you wrote was just lovely and swell, but to end it by soliciting positive and only positive feedback... That is tone deaf at best. I have been biting my tongue through the duration of this devastating experience because I truly do not understand the nuances. I am not a directly involved party, so have refrained from making any condemnations or assumptions. But now, in this mourning period, to ask people for praise... It's very disappointing to see and strikes me as highly unprofessional. "If for any reason you feel that your experience with our company was anything less than exceptional, please drop us a personal message and let us engage in a conversation [...]" is just a roundabout way of saying "Please don't post anything bad about us." To me, the very clear subtext here is "We don't want anyone seeing the less-than-stellar stuff." You cannot have the best of both worlds. Either all feedback should be private or none of it should be.

It's also not how the internet works. It's not how reviews work. If you are only open to positive feedback being posted publicly, it does not matter if negative experiences get dealt with behind the scenes. The public will then only see the positive experiences. This will mislead people who don't know better into believing that negative experiences with a company don't exist. Companies get both positive and negative reviews all the time and those who are considering doing business with said company deserve to have access to everyone's experiences, both positive and negative. In fact, this is an essential components in prospective customers making an informed decision. Discouraging honest, negative experiences from being posted sounds an awful lot like censorship to me.

All I'm saying is that that last paragraph should never have been written. It added nothing to the meaningful content of the many paragraphs above. That is what (most) people are taking offense to here. I was with you all the way til nearly the end and then felt whiplashed by the change of tone and intention. I may regret posting this, and have spent more time editing my reply than I care to admit, but I believe wholeheartedly in transparency.

So what you are saying is that it is completely acceptable for all the negative bashing that has taken place and despite for all the positive help and experiences we have shared with others, those exchanges have no value here. Allow only the negativity?

We posted this response to let our online community know what we intend to do from here on out to ensure that we can avoid an experience like this in the future. We are open to feedback both positive and negative, however as professionals and any other reputable business, prefer to have a conversation regarding the negative so that we can continue to improve as a business. Honestly, none of this had any place here on the forums. It was made that way by a small group of discontented individuals who have never done personal business with us but were basing their attacks on the one-sided experience of another.

The site rules are also clearly against attacking, bashing, or slandering or defamation of others!
 

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So what you are saying is that it is completely acceptable for all the negative bashing that has taken place and despite for all the positive help and experiences we have shared with others, those exchanges have no value here. Allow only the negativity?

We posted this response to let our online community know what we intend to do from here on out to ensure that we can avoid an experience like this in the future. We are open to feedback both positive and negative, however as professionals and any other reputable business, prefer to have a conversation regarding the negative so that we can continue to improve as a business. Honestly, none of this had any place here on the forums. It was made that way by a small group of discontented individuals who have never done personal business with us but were basing their attacks on the one-sided experience of another.

The site rules are also clearly against attacking, bashing, or slandering or defamation of others!

Aight, apparently I'm not done.

Give me a direct quote that would qualify as attacking, bashing, slandering, or defamation. All I've seen are pleas for you to do right by Becca, and (imho, justified) outrage. Y'all just had to keep on pouring salt on the wound, when you should have left well enough alone. You'll be getting no sympathy here. Let it die. You're just digging a deeper hole.
 
So what you are saying is that it is completely acceptable for all the negative bashing that has taken place and despite for all the positive help and experiences we have shared with others, those exchanges have no value here. Allow only the negativity?

We posted this response to let our online community know what we intend to do from here on out to ensure that we can avoid an experience like this in the future. We are open to feedback both positive and negative, however as professionals and any other reputable business, prefer to have a conversation regarding the negative so that we can continue to improve as a business. Honestly, none of this had any place here on the forums. It was made that way by a small group of discontented individuals who have never done personal business with us but were basing their attacks on the one-sided experience of another.

The site rules are also clearly against attacking, bashing, or slandering or defamation of others!
You act like theres never been a positive review of your business on the forums? There are entire threads dedicated to the chams that you have produced. Many of them. There are plenty of positive reviews out there.

Are you familiar with the definition of slander and defamation? It's the spreading of false information. Do you care to point out what false information was spread? Careful, because then everything else you'll be confirming as true.

There was not much in that post about what you plan to do from here on out. You just said you're planning to do something. Everything else was just trying to invalidate everything that's happened just because you have no history of having negative feedback. No one expects perfection. What we do expect is respect. That was not given.
@Syreptyon made a very polite and eloquent comment that summed up everyone else's thoughts. There was nothing rude about it.
 
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