Temporal gland infection

[Lovereps]

It was very kind of you to take on the care of your brother's cham.

If you can find a vet who has at least treated some chameleons and regularly treats other types of reptiles, you should be OK.
Forum members can often direct you to a good cham vet in your area, if you specify the area.
If you happen to be in SoCal, there are some wonderful cham vets there.

Daily cleaning of the infected temporal gland, combined with antibiotic eyedrops and an oral antibiotic may be needed for him to recover.

Chlorhexidine is my favorite temporal gland cleanser because it is reasonably gentle and non-toxic for oral use.
You can get chlorhexadine at farm supply or horse supply stores, (or Amazon) since it is used for cleansing animal wounds.
I'm sure the vet can provide some for you to use.
You just dilute it as directed on the bottle and wet a q tip with it.

I hope he is on the mend soon.

 

[Carlton]

Jaxygirl is right. Vitamin A deficiency causes loss of normal gland function. Those glands can be temporal glands or tear glands in the eyes. A lack of vitamin A causes glandular epithelium to become dyplastic and it becomes squamous epithelium instead of glandular epithelium. I know there is hesitation to use pre-formed vitamin A but there has never been a report in a refereed journal about hypervitaminosis A. Hypovitaminosis A is common.

So I wonder what we can tease out of this to protect our montane species? We don't want to overdo the vit A obviously but would it work to give some pre-formed A once an infection is first started? Maybe that's too late and it wouldn't be preventative. A periodic dose of pre-formed A? On what sort of schedule for maintenance? Interesting that we don't tend to see temporal gland infections in other montane species (fischeri, deremensis, quads, sailfin) but there are no where near as many of those species in captivity...it may just be a statistical artifact.

 

[Traction]

Vet says more baytril

 

[Traction]

How ever the baytril simply is not working

 

[leedragon]

So I wonder what we can tease out of this to protect our montane species? We don't want to overdo the vit A obviously but would it work to give some pre-formed A once an infection is first started? Maybe that's too late and it wouldn't be preventative. A periodic dose of pre-formed A? On what sort of schedule for maintenance? Interesting that we don't tend to see temporal gland infections in other montane species (fischeri, deremensis, quads, sailfin) but there are no where near as many of those species in captivity...it may just be a statistical artifact.

I am interested too

 

[Lovereps]

How ever the baytril simply is not working

Was this the same vet?
I thought you were going to a different vet.

Post your location if you want others to recommend someone in your area, if they know of a good cham vet near you.

 

[JaxyGirl]

So I wonder what we can tease out of this to protect our montane species? We don't want to overdo the vit A obviously but would it work to give some pre-formed A once an infection is first started? Maybe that's too late and it wouldn't be preventative. A periodic dose of pre-formed A? On what sort of schedule for maintenance? Interesting that we don't tend to see temporal gland infections in other montane species (fischeri, deremensis, quads, sailfin) but there are no where near as many of those species in captivity...it may just be a statistical artifact.

Along with my research that I've been doing on vitamin A I have found some interesting things.

1) Chameleons do not have the enzymes to convert Beta Carotine to a usable form of Vitamin A that can be stored in the liver.
2) The mostly vegetarian diet (beta carotine) that we gut load our feeders with can not be converted to vitamin A when the chameleons eat them.
3) Chameleons need Preformed Vitamin A which is stored in the liver for use in the body
4) Feeding mostly vegetarian gut load to our feeders results in a vitamin A deficiency in chameleons.
5) Preformed Vitamin A comes from Animals such as meat, fish, eggs, lizards, birds, small animals, snails and slugs etc.
6) The reason that vitamin A deficiencies seem to occur 6 months to a year of age in chameleons is because Vitamin A is Fat soluable and can be stored in the liver for 6 months or more. Baby lizards have stored Vitamin A in their Liver due to the yolk that sustained them in the egg. But, after 6 mos it becomes totally depleted if the Vitamin A is not replenished through a healthy diet containing Preformed Vitamin A. This leads to vitamin A deficiency in adulthood.
7) It is virtually impossible to cause Vitamin A Toxicity by offering chameleons a natural diet of real food that contains Preformed vitamin A that comes from animals. (Not supplements)

I think as chameleon owners we underestimate how much animal meat (Preformed Vitamin A) that chameleons actually eat in the wild. I belive that misconceptions that chameleons can not digest these types of foods are leading to severe Vitamin deficiencies in our chameleons and by doing so not giving them the quality long lived life that they deserve.

I offered these meats to my Jacksons chameleon at least once or twice a week in (small) amounts along with his gut loaded feeders. Raw shrimp, raw chicken, raw Salmon, tuna and raw steak. He never had any health issues He lived a happy healthy life and was a couple months short of 8 when he died.

 

[Lovereps]

Very interesting info you've gathered.
Thanks so much for sharing it.
Terrestrial snails would seem to be a great choice, particularly for Jackson's who will very enthusiastically eat them shell and all.

I'm not sure I would feed wild caught snails, despite reading elsewhere that one cham owner had analyzed them and found that none contained parasites---since too often there are pesticides/baits that people use to poison snails.

How did you get your cham to eat bits of non-living foods?

At 7 years, going on 8, yours is the oldest Jackson's that I've ever heard of.

I'd appreciate a PM with more specifics on his supplements, diet, etc, so we don't totally hijack Traction's thread.

TIA

 

[JaxyGirl]

So I wonder what we can tease out of this to protect our montane species? We don't want to overdo the vit A obviously but would it work to give some pre-formed A once an infection is first started? Maybe that's too late and it wouldn't be preventative. A periodic dose of pre-formed A? On what sort of schedule for maintenance? Interesting that we don't tend to see temporal gland infections in other montane species (fischeri, deremensis, quads, sailfin) but there are no where near as many of those species in captivity...it may just be a statistical artifact.

From what I've read these diseases occur because the chameleon has no usable active vitamin A left in the liver at all in order to fight these health issues. By the time the disease has progressed the only treatment is Preformed vitamin A injections or heavy Preformed Vitamin A suplimentation. At this point you're trying to replenish what is lost. It is a fine balance. At this point most chams are so sick that it's worth a try.
The problem is how much Preformed vitamin A do you give without over dosing?
Unfortunately, researchers don't know the absolute answer to this question.
From what I've read some people break open a Preformed Vitamen A liquid Gel and put a drop on a feeder. Some actually inject it into the feeder. How many IU's to use is questionable. They do this for 3-5 days and closely monitor the animal for any improvement or signs of toxicity.

 

[Carlton]

I think as chameleon owners we underestimate how much animal meat (Preformed Vitamin A) that chameleons actually eat in the wild. I belive that misconceptions that chameleons can not digest these types of foods are leading to severe Vitamin deficiencies in our chameleons and by doing so not giving them the quality long lived life that they deserve.

This is a great discussion!! So, speculating further,

Do all chams have comparable temporal glands? If so, I wonder why we see so few temporal gland infections in other species like veileds and panthers. Not that they don't occur, but you'd think with the much larger populations of those species in captivity (being fed on vegetation based gutloads with similar concerns about using pre-formed vit A) we would see more of them. Maybe vit A deficiencies manifest more often in eye infections in those species...or maybe these species don't have the same temporal gland structure or function jax do? And conversely, why don't we see more vit A related eye infections in jax?

OK, and building on this info, I wonder what "animal source" meats medium to smaller chams would eat in the wild...they are not eating birds or small mammals themselves and they are not scavengers (but they may prey on scavenging insects such as flies, maggots, snails, slugs, etc). Can we add ground animal proteins to gutloads or design an additional gutload product based on animal proteins to provide pre-formed vit A? Would this be safer or more stable than using a concentrated drop on a feeder periodically?


I offered these meats to my Jacksons chameleon at least once or twice a week in (small) amounts along with his gut loaded feeders. Raw shrimp, raw chicken, raw Salmon, tuna and raw steak. He never had any health issues He lived a happy healthy life and was a couple months short of 8 when he died.

I would worry a bit about Salmonella using raw chicken, but the other sources would work. What about adding egg yolk to gutload? Is the vitamin content lost through cooking or dehydrating? Can we get it from bee pollen?

 

[kinyonga]

JaxyGirl said "Along with my research that I've been doing on vitamin A I have found some interesting things" could you please post your sources of the following information please. I'd like to read the articles/studies this info cam from. I'm adding some comments/questions...in capitals..

1) Chameleons do not have the enzymes to convert Beta Carotine to a usable form of Vitamin A that can be stored in the liver.
DOES THIS APPLY TO VEILEDS TOO?

2) The mostly vegetarian diet (beta carotine) that we gut load our feeders with can not be converted to vitamin A when the chameleons eat them. BUT DON'T THE INSECTS CONVERT IT?

3) Chameleons need Preformed Vitamin A which is stored in the liver for use in the body

4) Feeding mostly vegetarian gut load to our feeders results in a vitamin A deficiency in chameleons. I TOOK/TAKE ALL MY CHAMELEON BODIES FOR NECROPCY AND ONLY ONE WAS VITAMIN A DEFICIENT AND IT HAD BEEN GETTING PREFORMED VITAMIN A ( IT WAS BEFORE I STOPPED USING IT. )

5) Preformed Vitamin A comes from Animals such as meat, fish, eggs, lizards, birds, small animals, snails and slugs etc.

6) The reason that vitamin A deficiencies seem to occur 6 months to a year of age in chameleons is because Vitamin A is Fat soluable and can be stored in the liver for 6 months or more. Baby lizards have stored Vitamin A in their Liver due to the yolk that sustained them in the egg. But, after 6 mos it becomes totally depleted if the Vitamin A is not replenished through a healthy diet containing Preformed Vitamin A. This leads to vitamin A deficiency in adulthood. I HAVEN'T FED ANY INSECTS ANYTHING THAT CONTAINS PREFORMED VITAMIN A AND DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH EYES OR TEMPORAL GLANDS, ETC. WONDER WHY NOT?

7) It is virtually impossible to cause Vitamin A Toxicity by offering chameleons a natural diet of real food that contains Preformed vitamin A that comes from animals. (Not supplements) I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS.

I think as chameleon owners we underestimate how much animal meat (Preformed Vitamin A) that chameleons actually eat in the wild. I belive that misconceptions that chameleons can not digest these types of foods are leading to severe Vitamin deficiencies in our chameleons and by doing so not giving them the quality long lived life that they deserve.

I offered these meats to my Jacksons chameleon at least once or twice a week in (small) amounts along with his gut loaded feeders. Raw shrimp, raw chicken, raw Salmon, tuna and raw steak. He never had any health issues He lived a happy healthy life and was a couple months short of 8 when he died.[/QUOTE]

LOOKING FORWARD TO THE ARTICLES.

 

[JaxyGirl]

I started a New Thread in Health Clinic.
I really think this Topic is interesting

JaxyGirl said "Along with my research that I've been doing on vitamin A I have found some interesting things" could you please post your sources of the following information please. I'd like to read the articles/studies this info cam from. I'm adding some comments/questions...in capitals..

1) Chameleons do not have the enzymes to convert Beta Carotine to a usable form of Vitamin A that can be stored in the liver.
DOES THIS APPLY TO VEILEDS TOO?
yes

2) The mostly vegetarian diet (beta carotine) that we gut load our feeders with can not be converted to vitamin A when the chameleons eat them. BUT DON'T THE INSECTS CONVERT IT?
see excerpt in image below from
Reptile Medicine and Surgery
edited by Stephen J. Divers, Douglas R. Mader

3) Chameleons need Preformed Vitamin A which is stored in the liver for use in the body

4) Feeding mostly vegetarian gut load to our feeders results in a vitamin A deficiency in chameleons. I TOOK/TAKE ALL MY CHAMELEON BODIES FOR NECROPCY AND ONLY ONE WAS VITAMIN A DEFICIENT AND IT HAD BEEN GETTING PREFORMED VITAMIN A ( IT WAS BEFORE I STOPPED USING IT. )
Unfortunately I don't have the know,edge of your chameleon to answer that.

5) Preformed Vitamin A comes from Animals such as meat, fish, eggs, lizards, birds, small animals, snails and slugs etc.

6) The reason that vitamin A deficiencies seem to occur 6 months to a year of age in chameleons is because Vitamin A is Fat soluable and can be stored in the liver for 6 months or more. Baby lizards have stored Vitamin A in their Liver due to the yolk that sustained them in the egg. But, after 6 mos it becomes totally depleted if the Vitamin A is not replenished through a healthy diet containing Preformed Vitamin A. This leads to vitamin A deficiency in adulthood. I HAVEN'T FED ANY INSECTS ANYTHING THAT CONTAINS PREFORMED VITAMIN A AND DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUES WITH EYES OR TEMPORAL GLANDS, ETC. WONDER WHY NOT?
I'm not suggesting that all chameleons will have hypovitamiosis A in their lifetime or that all diseases are because of it. This was an interesting observation tthst I made that I decided to research further. Apparently your husbandry is very good and you are gut loading your feeders correctly and the amount of Vistimin A that your feeders do have are enough to sustain your chams. As I said it's a balancing act.

7) It is virtually impossible to cause Vitamin A Toxicity by offering chameleons a natural diet of real food that contains Preformed vitamin A that comes from animals. (Not supplements) I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS.
What reaserchers said is that it is easier to have vitamin A toxicity by giving Prefomed Vitamin A supplements in the form of vitamin dusts etc. where as getting Natural Preformed A from natural animal foods would likely not cause toxicity

I think as chameleon owners we underestimate how much animal meat (Preformed Vitamin A) that chameleons actually eat in the wild. I belive that misconceptions that chameleons can not digest these types of foods are leading to severe Vitamin deficiencies in our chameleons and by doing so not giving them the quality long lived life that they deserve.

I offered these meats to my Jacksons chameleon at least once or twice a week in (small) amounts along with his gut loaded feeders. Raw shrimp, raw chicken, raw Salmon, tuna and raw steak. He never had any health issues He lived a happy healthy life and was a couple months short of 8 when he died.

LOOKING FORWARD TO THE ARTICLES.[/QUOTE]
Here is an excerpt from
Reptile Medicine and Surgery
edited by Stephen J. Divers, Douglas R. Mader

 

[kinyonga]

I gutload/feed my insects with only greens and veggies...no prEformed sources of vitamin A. If do not feed my chameleons with any "meat" or meat "by-products" such as eggs, cheese, etc so there is no prEformed vitamin A from that either.

I would think it might be possible for veileds to convert prOformed sources since they eat greens and veggies...even if other species don't/cant.

This comes from a vet well known in chameleon circles and ADCHAM...
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitaminA.htm

Lots of info on nutrient content...
http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm