Something I've been saying for years...

Thank you for sharing that. I, too, believe that. Growing slowly gives their slow metabolism the opportunity to keep everything growing at the same speed. After all, healthy is the way to go, and they all get to be about the same size in the end. I notice that mine grow until about 18 months with adequate sheds. After 18 months growth slows way down and I don't really notice any more.
 
Boy that sure calls it like it is. I always feel bad because mine often don't grow as fast as some others! Well not anymore, thanks Lynda.
 
kinyonga said:
Re: growing baby chameleons too fast in captivity..."even though they were well fed and supplemented, the bone density could not keep up with the growth rate."...
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11934.html
Click to expand...

As one who has probably more experience on indoor vs. outdoor growth rates than anyone else, I have to take issue with the conclusions here. First, some bad assumptions and or premises not included.

1) Growing out of doors in the Madagascar late-spring summer fall is the normal environment for these animals. Temperature, water, and bugs are available plenty. It is not much different from being raised outside here in central - southern Florida, and being raised on as many WC bugs as possible. That establishes the normal growth rate.

2) Being raised indoors under artificial lighting is less than optimal. It is also what is available to most folks. Offered the same food, same water regimen, and doing it indoors vs. outdoors in the proper climate, the outdoor animal will exceed the growth rate of the indoor animal always.

3) Many animals raised more slowly, indoors, develop bone issues as well. My experience convinced me long ago that the primary causes of bone issues are inadequate diet and lighting.

4) "Proper supplementation" is a misnomer. Supplementation is a substitute, and often comes up short. We have no way to gauge if the supplementation was "proper" here. I would submit that all we have are varying degrees of being somewhat adequate with supplementation.

5) In the above example you cited, there is no way of knowing that the animal was getting a normal diet, normal being that it filled all its needs just as if it were in the wild. My belief is that almost all of our fabricated diets come up short.

6)We also do not know the strength of the bloodlines involved. The potential for variables introduced due to captivity and captive breeding is enormous. And it varies from keeper to keeper.

What I will readily acknowledge is that an animal that is on a substandard diet will not do well in a normal outdoor growth environment. But again, the failure rate is far higher for chameleons raised indoors than outdoors, and it is not close. That an experienced keeper can manage their animals well indoors is not the measure by which we gauge. That is bass-ackward.

I have said this many times, and will sing it until I die. It is based on raising tens of thousands of chameleons, mostly outdoors or in a greenhouse, but in both those scenarios, far closer to what the animal gets in the wild from Mother Nature than from being indoors. The gold standard is to get all things as close to Mother Nature as possible, without the hardships such as drought and predation.

Take care.
 
kinyonga said:
Re: growing baby chameleons too fast in captivity..."even though they were well fed and supplemented, the bone density could not keep up with the growth rate."...
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11934.html
Click to expand...

Interesting - thanks for sharing.
I've always believed a moderate growth rate to be best.

Chameleon Company said:
...
4) "Proper supplementation" is a misnomer. Supplementation is a substitute, and often comes up short. We have no way to gauge if the supplementation was "proper" here. I would submit that all we have are varying degrees of being somewhat adequate with supplementation.
Click to expand...

very true too
 
What I have said too in the past... But there are still too many people outside telling something about " in the first half year, chameleons should get as much food as they want...", exactly like they get it in the wild...:rolleyes:
 
The point is that chameleons grown in captivity (indoors) do not get what those that grow in their natural native outdoor environment or outdoors in a similar warm environment in another country do because the captive (indoor) environment does not provide everything that nature does...and thus if we want the chameleon to do well in captivity we have to make changes to do this the best we can.
 
eisentrauti said:
What I have said too in the past... But there are still too many people outside telling something about " in the first half year, chameleons should get as much food as they want...", exactly like they get it in the wild...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

But they also don't cup or hand feed in the wild. lol So I guess they could have as much as they want if they catch it.
 
eisentrauti said:
What I have said too in the past... But there are still too many people outside telling something about " in the first half year, chameleons should get as much food as they want...", exactly like they get it in the wild...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Which is true. There is no evidence offered that chameleons to not have access to adequate free range in the wild in a normal weather year, although there are fringes of some ranges that are not as prolific as other parts. Fresh imports almost always have good fat pads. Additionally, when we raise chameleons in large outdoor enclosures here in the warmer months, where they have access to wild bugs as well as what we put into the cage to free range at least a portion of it, the animals regulate their feeding very well. They do not over-eat, and maintain a very healthy appearance.
 
kinyonga said:
The point is that chameleons grown in captivity (indoors) do not get what those that grow in their natural native outdoor environment or outdoors in a similar warm environment in another country do because the captive (indoor) environment does not provide everything that nature does...and thus if we want the chameleon to do well in captivity we have to make changes to do this the best we can.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I think Jim brings up some good points.... but most keepers aren't scientific in their keeping and can't provide even close to a good simulation of nature, even though they may try or wish to.

Bottom line, do the best you can.
 
Chameleon Company said:
Which is true. There is no evidence offered that chameleons to not have access to adequate free range in the wild in a normal weather year, although there are fringes of some ranges that are not as prolific as other parts. Fresh imports almost always have good fat pads. Additionally, when we raise chameleons in large outdoor enclosures here in the warmer months, where they have access to wild bugs as well as what we put into the cage to free range at least a portion of it, the animals regulate their feeding very well. They do not over-eat, and maintain a very healthy appearance.
Click to expand...

Which species did you imported in the past ? The ones I got didn't have any fat pads
 
summoner12 said:
I agree.

I think Jim brings up some good points.... but most keepers aren't scientific in their keeping and can't provide even close to a good simulation of nature, even though they may try or wish to.

Bottom line, do the best you can.
Click to expand...

Very well said, it is what we all should do.
 
There is one thing i wonder:

In the nature, most weaker chameleon babies die pretty fast, leaving only the stronger chameleon live. In artificial conditions, most weaker babies can survive, and even live a long and good life for quite a few years, which even is sometimes longer than in the wild. Therefore, is it really possible to compare wild chameleons to captive breed chameleons without removing the weaker babies from the database??

At the moment, i feel we are comparing apples and oranges with just apples, and this isn't scientific.


Thanks Kiny for the infos! :)
 
You have to consider the concept that, since the eve of this reptile trade, our methods of caring/breeding have been selecting bloodlines very unlike how nature would. Not horribly though, nature is ALMOST COMPLETELY RANDOM. But just like you say, for example, those who would die in nature, instead, sometimes survive and are breed in captivity; but this shouldn't worry you. There are many other aspects to how we select. Just like any other species that is "domesticated" (plants, cats, dogs..), the bloodline traits in hobbyist circles will evolve in time(genetic time-scales though).

Maybe one day, we will have every species breeding in captivity in high enough numbers where there will be no more need to take them from the wild.

As far as breeding for "captivity-tolerant" traits, I feel there is definitely a predisposition for this. When people say, "the babies from this mother grow crazy fast and get fat quick with simple indoor enclosures," well people will be more likely to purchase that bloodline.

Since, our artificial conditions vary, I think it would be in the best interest of the pro's in the hobby to apply to a similar set of methods per-species, and per-habitat-type, to actually be able to compare results of different bloodlines. This, in time, will hopefully advance and further standardize the methods of supplementation and feeding for indoor and outdoor enclosure alike!

To sum up what I mean, if all professional dog breeders(who went to judging contests or something) were to use the same Purina Dog Chow blends (i guess they have per-age and per-breed formulas now) then, the actual judging of the best bloodlines would be more precise.

IMO , Kiny is reminding the individual pet owner that he/she is not and can not replicate nature but some, with work, can get closer to it.

I think age is a big deal in gauging genetic health, breeders should document the health/conditions of a breeder from day 1 and when it dies, they should always perform autopsy to actual investigate bone health etc..

morpheon said:
There is one thing i wonder:

In the nature, most weaker chameleon babies die pretty fast, leaving only the stronger chameleon live. In artificial conditions, most weaker babies can survive, and even live a long and good life for quite a few years, which even is sometimes longer than in the wild. Therefore, is it really possible to compare wild chameleons to captive breed chameleons without removing the weaker babies from the database??

At the moment, i feel we are comparing apples and oranges with just apples, and this isn't scientific.


Thanks Kiny for the infos! :)
Click to expand...
 
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