Male Veiled 7 months old might die

[justanotherchamowner]

Hi -

Larry The Lizard, my 8.5 month male veiled chameleon has a good chance of dying. Don't worry, I have already been to the Vet over a week ago.

This is my first chameleon and despite 2 months of research before I purchased him things went downhill fast. I am taking care of him like a little baby. He is primarily outside, weather permitting, in another enclosure I bought for him.

Here is what's going on -

2 weeks ago I noticed this big bulge in his abdomen. I somewhat noticed it a week before but he has been growing and I thought maybe he was gaining some extra fat. Well it got bigger and he stopped eating/drinking and shutting his eyes within like 24hra after I made the Vet appointment. I was able to get him in a day early when this happened.

We did x-rays 2 sets. One top down and one side. The vet discovered a few things.

1) He is impacted with a 100 percent distended stomach!! But there is no physical impaction!! He is not dehydrated so it wasn't from that either.

2) His bone density is not good. It's not full MBD but it's heading towards MBD. He has no curves or deformed bones whatsoever. It's only something that would be spotted in the x-rays.

Diet -

Dubias
Crickets
Hornworms (as snacks)
Superworms (as snacks)


Supplementation

Calcium No D3 - every other feeding
Multivitamin w/D3 - 1x every 2 weeks

I was using repetitive multivitamin but realized a month ago it has high phosphorus. I switched to Miner-All with D3 instead about a month ago.

Habitat -

4X2X2 mesh screen enclosure
Lighting - T8 5%. Zoomed thinking next time I need a bulb might go with Arcadia T8 6%
Basking is 75w incandescent frosted


Health background -

At 4-5 months old he had a sinus infection. He was taken to the vet and succeeded in clearing it up with antibiotic eye drops.

He does not tolerate being handled so the eye drops 2x daily for 7 days was rough. I managed to get all them in.

The 2nd to last drop on day 7 he ran so fast he slipped and fell 2ft to the bottom of his enclosure and landed on his side. He got back up and seemed perfectly fine. About 1.5 months ago I noticed some bumps on his ribs. I researched it and he obviously fractured some ribs during that fall so I took him to the vet for a checkup. He confirmed the fractures ribs but said they seem completely healed and he was in good health.

During both these visits I asked the vet why he is smaller than he should be. He said overall he was in good health and not to worry about it as the last checkup he was really growing. 40% in 2.5 months from the first visit.




Now here I am with my chameleon about to die. The vet said it's highly likely. The real question is what the hell caused him to have a 100 percent distended stomach? At the Vet they gave him an enema. He popped 4 times in 36 hrs after that. I did not think to get his poop checked for parasites and by the time I realized this could be the problem (still not sure). His poop was already old and dry and he stopped pooping again.

I called the Vets office and demanded dewormer without a parasite test as he was about to die and I didn't have any stool to test anyways. I was also in the hole over 400 dollars already and I didn't see the problem in trying it without the test.

So he has been on lactulose 1xdaily, calcium 2xdaily, and just finished the first round of dewormer. In 5 more days he will be on the second round.

Because he was not eating and drinking water I have been giving him a slurry of Pedialyte + pureed carrots + pureed insects. The carrots I did was for some extra fiber. Vet didn't tell me to do this I just did.

Yesterday I did get him on his own to eat 1 small hornworm and today 1 wax worm. I'm going for soft food right now and he doesn't have much energy. He also started pooping a little bit 3x now in 3 days. His abdomen between his hind legs is still really swollen.


Is there anything else I can do to help him besides what I'm doing? It has been amazing weather since he went downhill and I think the natural sun is keeping him alive. I set this up outside the day he went downhill.

Anything else that could cause this? The reason I though it might be parasites is because he has plenty of calcium and proper lighting. He also isn't distended from a physical impaction or dehydration.

Also the pictures are from when I noticed the bulge, and the one of him sleeping is from a month ago. Sun was just about to set and he went to bed. Also, it's NOT a female. Underdeveloped Male.

 

[jannb]

Where do you live and who is your vet. I might be able to recommend a knowledgable chameleon vet for a second opinion. Don’t give up on him.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Ron Durante is the Vet in Algonquin, IL. I live in Woodstock, IL

 

[justanotherchamowner]

This is a picture I just took. Just brought him inside. You can see how swollen he still is.

 

[elizaann2]

My heart goes out to you and your sweet boy.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. I’m sorry that you’re going thru this. My first thought with bowel obstruction would be maybe he ate an artificial leaf. However, since he’s been pooping quite a bit now, he should no longer have the obstruction…unless his poo is liquid like water which would be poo forcing it’s way past an obstruction. (Guessing that symptoms would be similar as human)
Did your vet run any labs? Those could really tell a lot about what is going on with your poor guy. He could have an infection somewhere, his organ function might not be so great or a number of things that would show in lab work. And yes, take one of those fresh poos over to the vet and have them check it for parasites.
Btw, I would guess the mild mbd would be from your T8 5.0 uvb. When using a T8, you need to be using a 10.0 or 12% uvb bulb. The standard is a T5 with a 5.0 or 6%.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Hi. I’m sorry that you’re going thru this. My first thought with bowel obstruction would be maybe he ate an artificial leaf. However, since he’s been pooping quite a bit now, he should no longer have the obstruction…unless his poo is liquid like water which would be poo forcing it’s way past an obstruction. (Guessing that symptoms would be similar as human)
Did your vet run any labs? Those could really tell a lot about what is going on with your poor guy. He could have an infection somewhere, his organ function might not be so great or a number of things that would show in lab work. And yes, take one of those fresh poos over to the vet and have them check it for parasites.
Btw, I would guess the mild mbd would be from your T8 5.0 uvb. When using a T8, you need to be using a 10.0 or 12% uvb bulb. The standard is a T5 with a 5.0 or 6%.

I have a T5 5% in my closet. I was thinking about upgrading the bulb to a Arcadia 6%. Is that fine? I was worried the T5 was to close to him so I swapped it out for a T8 5% about 4 months months ago. I will swap it out when I get home and grab an Arcadia 6% bulb for it as well. Anything wrong with Arcadia bulbs? Or should I just use the Zoomed T5 bulb that should still be good for at least 2-3 months?

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Where do you live and who is your vet. I might be able to recommend a knowledgable chameleon vet for a second opinion. Don’t give up on him.

• Today at 4:52 PM

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• #3

Ron Durante is the Vet in Algonquin, IL. I live in Woodstock, IL

 

[jannb]

Ron Durante is the Vet in Algonquin, IL. I live in Woodstock, IL

Here‘s a list of reptile vet in IL. Dr. Stephen Barten was an awesome chameleon vet at Vernon Hills in Mundelein, IL but he retired a couple years ago.

Chicago — Animal House of Chicago (Dr. de la Navarre)

Decatur — Northgate Pet Clinic

Dundee — Dundee Animal Hospital (Dr. O’Brien)

Elmwood Park — Midwest Bird and Exotic

Herrin — Quality Care Animal Hospital (Dr. Parton)

Lisle — Ness Exotic Wellness Center

Niles — Niles Animal Hospital and Bird Medical Center (Dr. Kline)

Peoria — All Pet Veterinary Hospital (Dr. Burmeister)

Peoria — Prairie Animal Hospital (Dr. Grimm)

Petersburg — Petersburg Veterinary Clinic (Dr. Shirding)

Roselle — Lake Street Animal Hospital (Dr. Caseltine)

Skokie — Chicago Exotics Animal Hospital

Urbana — University of Illinois Veterinary Teaching Hospital

 

[MissSkittles]

I have a T5 5% in my closet. I was thinking about upgrading the bulb to an Arcadia 6%. Is that fine? I was worried the T5 was to close to him so I swapped it out for a T8 5% about 4 months months ago. I will swap it out when I get home and grab an Arcadia 6% bulb for it as well. Anything wrong with Arcadia bulbs? Or should I just use the Zoomed T5 bulb that should still be good for at least 2-3 months?

The T5 with a 6% is perfect and the distance between basking branch and light should be about 8-9”. That gives the ideal uv index of 3.0 with a nice gradient. I prefer Arcadia bulbs. While some say ReptiSun is good for a year, same as Arcadia, I would only trust it for 6 months unless able to measure output with a solarmeter 6.5.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

The T5 with a 6% is perfect and the distance between basking branch and light should be about 8-9”. That gives the ideal uv index of 3.0 with a nice gradient. I prefer Arcadia bulbs. While some say ReptiSun is good for a year, same as Arcadia, I would only trust it for 6 months unless able to measure output with a solarmeter 6.5.

Thanks!! The good thing is he has pretty much been living outside during the day for about 9 days now. I check on him every hour or so. So he is getting some good natural sun now. When I get home I'll swap the T8 for the T5 and when I get time in the next 2 days I'll grab an Arcadia 6%

 

[MissSkittles]

Thanks!! The good thing is he has pretty much been living outside during the day for about 9 days now. I check on him every hour or so. So he is getting some good natural sun now. When I get home I'll swap the T8 for the T5 and when I get time in the next 2 days I'll grab an Arcadia 6%

If you have a ReptiSun that is still good for a couple of months, it would be better to just use that and spend the $$ on a fecal and labs.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

If you have a ReptiSun that is still good for a couple of months, it would be better to just use that and spend the $$ on a fecal and labs.

Excellent point!!

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Hi. I’m sorry that you’re going thru this. My first thought with bowel obstruction would be maybe he ate an artificial leaf. However, since he’s been pooping quite a bit now, he should no longer have the obstruction…unless his poo is liquid like water which would be poo forcing it’s way past an obstruction. (Guessing that symptoms would be similar as human)
Did your vet run any labs? Those could really tell a lot about what is going on with your poor guy. He could have an infection somewhere, his organ function might not be so great or a number of things that would show in lab work. And yes, take one of those fresh poos over to the vet and have them check it for parasites.
Btw, I would guess the mild mbd would be from your T8 5.0 uvb. When using a T8, you need to be using a 10.0 or 12% uvb bulb. The standard is a T5 with a 5.0 or 6%.

Also, both x-rays didn't show a physical impaction although I guess it could have been missed. I'm going to call the vet clinic on the list.

Is there anything wrong with picking up the x-rays from my other vet from a little over a week ago? It was like 200 dollars for both them and it would save me money.

The only vet on the large list is in Naperville. It's a far but not crazy drive. I will call them tom and confirm there experience with chameleons first. I might also call a few other places on the other list. I really want to avoid driving into the city though. Just moved from the city 2 years ago and now I hate dealing with it so I'll call the place in Naperville first.

Also, and unfortunately my money is limited. If It gets too expensive with little chance of recovery I might have to make a decision. This is something I am completely prepared for but this doesn't mean I have to give up yet and I don't want to. Even if I just find out answers it will help me in the future if I ever decide to do this again.

 

[elizaann2]

Best of luck to you and please keep us posted on how things go.

I don’t think it would hurt to ask for the x-rays.

 

[MissSkittles]

I don’t think it would hurt to ask for the x-rays.

I think you had a typo - it wouldn’t hurt….

This year I’ve unfortunately had more than my fair share of chameleon vet visits. I don’t even want to know just how much it all cost. However, I don’t think any of my visits were as high as $400. Each vet charges differently, of course. I never had labs done on the same visit as X rays, as then I would have had a bill of like $500+. You can ask when making the appointment what the exotic visit fee is and basic labs. Something that you can do which is totally free is a complete husbandry review. Maybe there’s something off that is causing his problem. It may be related to why he hasn’t fully developed. I know you already gave quite a bit of info, but it might be something that seems small. I understand it may have to be, but I’d hate if you had to give in and even have to consider making a humane choice.
Here’s the questions - just copy & paste. If you wouldn’t mind repeating the info you’ve already provided, that will make it a bit easier for whomever does the review. Thanks in advance.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[kinyonga]

Reptivite has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio…according to this…
https://www.cornelsworld.com/product/zoo-med-reptivite-with-d3/#:~:text=ReptiVite™%20is%20calcium%20based,animal%20parks%20throughout%20the%20world.

Miner-all does not contain vitamins…it’s minerals…
https://www.pangeareptile.com/products/miner-all-indoor-reptile-supplement

Not sure this is the reason for your chameleon’s situation…but it might be playing a part.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

I think you had a typo - it wouldn’t hurt….

This year I’ve unfortunately had more than my fair share of chameleon vet visits. I don’t even want to know just how much it all cost. However, I don’t think any of my visits were as high as $400. Each vet charges differently, of course. I never had labs done on the same visit as X rays, as then I would have had a bill of like $500+. You can ask when making the appointment what the exotic visit fee is and basic labs. Something that you can do which is totally free is a complete husbandry review. Maybe there’s something off that is causing his problem. It may be related to why he hasn’t fully developed. I know you already gave quite a bit of info, but it might be something that seems small. I understand it may have to be, but I’d hate if you had to give in and even have to consider making a humane choice.
Here’s the questions - just copy & paste. If you wouldn’t mind repeating the info you’ve already provided, that will make it a bit easier for whomever does the review. Thanks in advance.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, Male, 8-9 months. Since Jan. 1st
• Handling - I don't very often if at all. He has quite the additude and doesn't like to be bothered. I mainly enjoy sitting on my couch and watching him for sometimes hours. I find him fascinating.

• Feeding - Dubias, crickets, snacks are hornworms, superworms. Prefers about 7-8 large crickets a day, A few Dubias here and there on top of that. He doesn't like them as much as crickets. 3 hornworms a week, and maybe 2 superworms a week. I feed him every morning. The reason I don't feed him again in the afternoon is he doesn't run over to his feeder and eat a ton then eat again later. He eats throughout the day at his leisure and likes to hunt the escaped crickets. There is always extra food and always a number of crickets running around the enclosure but he does eat the amount in a day that I said.

• Supplements - Exo-tera calcium NO D3 every other day. The entirety of his food is dusted every other day. See feeding schedule above. Reptivite Multivitamin W/D3 2 x a month. I just switched about a month ago to Miner-All with D3 instead of the high phosphorus Reptivite.
• Gut Loading - I gut load my insects with orange slices and shredded carrots mainly or whatever I have laying around.
• Watering - sparkly clear whisky glass filled to brim with water changed daily. It is high up in his enclosure in a potted plant with a very large vine going next to it to perch on where light shines off it. Not under his basking area. I started with a misting system plus a drinking glass. He literally took to the glass within 2 days and literally hides and hated the mister hiding every time it went off, not even getting used to it after almost 4 straight months. He drinks from it all the time and has never showed signs of dehydration (no sunken eyes) and stool is brown/white/ and perfectly clear. I know majority of people in this forum think the shot/whisky glass is crazy but he stays hydrated this way and is his preferred way of getting water even with the mister. He developed an eye/respiratory infection at 4 to 5months and I removed the mister and haven't had eye issues since and no dehydration issues either. To me it makes since because unless you somehow cleaned the tubing of the misting system probably like 3 times a week and sanitized it, it would have a lot of bacteria growing in it. Yes, I understand there is bacteria everywhere in the wild, but outside there is definitely a sort of homeostasis with different micro-organisms anywhere outside on planet.

• Fecal Description - Stool Brown / Urates bright White , liquid completely clear. Has has never been checked for parasites and I now realize I should have done it when I first got him. When he started pooping again a few days ago the stuff that came out was like a glob of mucus both times. I saved one in a test tube and it's in my fridge. He hadn't eatin much because of how sick he was so no brown poop yet, but he was passing clear liquid, white urates and mucus/jello like substance in a big glob. I imagine this could be from the lactulose he is on but I'm not really sure.

• History - Respiratory infection in Sinus which spread to eye at 4 to 5 months. He was taken to the exotic vet right away and it was cleared up using antibiotic/steroid drops. 2 x daily 7 days. He fell when he got away from me on the last day so fast (he's not the nicest) and slipped. Landed on his side from 2 feet. I was concerned but he got right back up immediately and climbed back to the top. He seemed 100 percent fine and was acting normal eating, drinking and his lively normal self. I noticed bumps on his ribs on that side about 2 months later. I took him to the vet 1.5 months ago to check on them and he confirmed the fractured but healed or close to 100 percent healed and he was in excellent health even growing 40 percent bigger in under 3 months.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 1 indoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2. 1-new outdoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2
• Lighting - Started with ReptiSun T5 5%. When he got a sinus infection I turned off the T5 before I got to the Vet and bought a T8 5%. This was before I confirmed the infection and wanted to make sure it wasn't a T5 to close and hurting his eyes. Heat is a old school frosted incandescent bulb. 75w.
• Temperature - Basking is a max of 84 degrees at its hottest point. About 1 inch of his basking area. The rest of the basking area ranges from 81 to 83. Temps are taken with a digital laser gun. Floor is about the same as my house around 70 -72 degrees. Night time temps drop in the house to 66 degrees. His lights are on a timer and are 12 on 12 off. 630 to 630.
• 
  
• Humidity - humidity levels in the winter are around 50 percent and a little higher in the summer. He has no problems with shedding at all. First vet visit he couldn't find a single spec of stuck shed anywhere on his body.
• Plants - 90 percent live plants. I purchased them from a chameleon safe plant list on Reddit. I have a number of them. 2 Photos, money tee, 1 -swiss pothos, a fern, and there is one brightly colored plant that was on the list but I honestly don't remember the name of it. I'm planning on removing the last 3 very small fake plants. I left them as a slight filler for when he really wants to hide somewhere and get away but they are not needed.

Outside I have 1 very large ficus for maximum shade when he needs it plus natural branches everywhere. It's designed to be able to take apart in minutes if I ever need to move it like cutting the lawn. This outdoor enclosure is a new addition 2 weeks ago when he got sick.

• Placement - In the living room next to a large door window. Yes it's higher traffic but we also have a small family of 3 of us. There is literally no where else I can keep him in my house and I'm definitely not sticking him in my basement. I leave him alone and observe him for hours sometimes from the couch. He loves to spend some time gazing through the very large window. Lots of natural sunlight all day. I know the glass blocks the beneficial part of uv but it keeps everything lit up nicely in his enclosure all day long.

He is not next to any vents.

• Location - Midwest

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Current Problem - large bulge in abdomen, x-rays show distended stomach taking up 100 percent of his abdomen. Should be less than 50 percent. No visible sign of physical impaction (swallowed something) Not dehydration either.

He had a enima and fluid injections under the skin to get the blockage moving again. X-rays showed lower bone density but not full MBD, more like heading towards MBD. Something that was only visible on x-rays but in all other vet visits his bones seemed good. Including limb bones / jaw / ribs all seemed good and strong in all 3 vet visits from physical.

He is on Calcium, Lactulose, dewormer. He was literally dying so I asked for dewormer without the test. Vet never brought up this up and he had stopped going to the bathroom again and I had no stool to test. Vet agreed so we did it. Will be testing stool soon.

Heading most likely to a different vet for blood work and another examination for a second opinion. Vet said with his stomach like that he has a good chance of passing. He still doesn't know what's causing it.

 

[justanotherchamowner]

Reptivite has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio…according to this…
https://www.cornelsworld.com/product/zoo-med-reptivite-with-d3/#:~:text=ReptiVite™%20is%20calcium%20based,animal%20parks%20throughout%20the%20world.

Miner-all does not contain vitamins…it’s minerals…
https://www.pangeareptile.com/products/miner-all-indoor-reptile-supplement

Not sure this is the reason for your chameleon’s situation…but it might be playing a part.

So the Reptivite is bad right? Is that what you're saying? If so I switched to Miner-All as it doesn't have phosphorus. I literally just switched though like month ago. He had been on Reptivite 2 x monthly for 7-8 months.