It will take me a bit to go through everything. Do you happen to know exactly what the multivitamin supplement is that you are giving? Or do they just sell you a loose powder without the original bottle?
Eye issue - story of past 2 months - question
- Thread starter Lacieee
- Start date
Don't know the exact ingredients
So this is pretty dangerous with chameleons. Depending on what they are giving you and what fat soluble vitamins are in it. For example D3 and A both are fat soluble which means they store in the tissues. They both can be over supplemented causing overdose. In turn their bodies start shutting down.
I am going through your entire husbandry form now and will give you detailed info.
Thanks you! So you advise getting rid off the unknown vitamin and buy a specific brand instead? Btw an update: he was finally awake from "shutdown", already pooped and drank a bit of water!! Only one of his eyes is open but moving around and exploring.
See my feedback in red bold. Please let me know what question you have. This will be a ton of info so just take it piece by piece. 
Cage Info:
So really based on what you told me I am seeing four main things in the husbandry that could cause all of the issues. The non bioactive bottom, incorrect UVB, potential for overdose with supplements since the multivitamin is unknown, and the excessive temps.
Both incorrect supplementation and incorrect UVB are big ones. These impact not only their daily activity but also their appetite. They will start slowly shutting down to the point that they end up closing the eyes and stop eating. You can end up seeing infections starting before this happens. Because the lack of UVB makes their immune system more compromised. Then when you add in things like excess heat and stagnant air from a soil bottom cage this just increases risk.
If you start correcting these basic husbandry factors it will give him the abilty to hopefully bounce back. Do not let the vet give any vitamin shots. Since we do not know what is in the multivitamin you do not want to risk a vitamin A overdose since more than likely he is already dealing with a Vitamin D3 toxicity if that multivitamin has that as well.
Let me know what questions you have.
Good resources besides us in the forum are Neptune the Chameleon on Youtube and Chameleon Academy website.
- Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
- Panther chameleon, male, 10 months, since last September
- Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
- 2-3 times a day. Feeding in the morning, watering 2-3 times with spray. I used filtered tap water. He also has a dripper, I change the water every day -> the same filtered tap water.
- Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
- Mostly crickets (4-5 pieces/day), but he likes superworm and waxworm (max 1-2/day), and sometimes cockroaches. He gets food in the morning. The crickets, superworms, cockroaches get fresh vegetables every 2-3 days. See image for gutloading. Make sure you are not using spinach it is calcium binding.
- Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with, and what is the schedule?
- Repti planet Calcium, and Calcium+D3, also have a vitamin complex from a local pet store, especially for chameleons. Every day he gets calcium, vitamin and +D3 every 2 weeks. You want to toss the multivitamin. It just is not safe to supplement with something that you do not know what is in it and what the levels of the vitamins in it are. A good multivitamin with D3 would be Repashy Calcium plus LoD version. This one would replace both the D3 and the vitamin you give now. It would only be used 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Then at all other feedings you would use the plain calcium without D3. All supplements should be lightly dusted on the insects. These should not be heavily coating the insects.
- Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
- I have a gardening spray, and I spray the freshly filtered tap water on the plants for 1-2 minutes. Yes, I see Sergio drinking from leaves, but he also has a dripper, he mostly use that.
- Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
- Brown - white -rose. No, he wasn't tested for parasites. What do you mean by Rose? Like red? Parasite testing is always a good idea. Getting your vet to run a fecal test to rule this out would be good.
- History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
- He has had this medical threatening for 2 months now, almost every week. It started with an eye infection, which evolved into a mouth infection, now it seems that the tear ducts are still infected.
Cage Info:
- Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
- It's made of glass, but has a ventilation metal grid in the bottom front and on the top. It's 50x50x90 cm. enclosure is a bit small for a male panther. minimum size for them would be a 60x60x120cm
- Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
- Lightning: https://www.lampak.hu/halogen-izzo-gu10-35w-230v
- UVB: https://bugs-world.com/termek/reptiles-planet-mega-sun-uvb-izzo-10-0-26w. This is the biggest issue within the husbandry. These really are not very effective they have a shallow output radius. For chameleons it is recommended to use linear T5HO fixtures and a 6% UVB bulb. Arcadia ProT5 with a 6% bulb running the length of the enclosure. Then you would have branches sitting 8-9 inches below this fixture sitting on the top screen.
- Light schedule: it auto turns on 7:30 AM, and auto turns off 7:30 PM
- Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
- On top 30-35 celsius, bottom 25-28 celsius. Night temp lowest: 25. I have a temp and humidity measurer on the top and on the bottom of the terrarium Temps are far too hot for a chameleon especially in a glass enclosure. You are looking for a temp of 26-29c for a basking temp so the hottest spot in the cage. The ambient levels of the rest of the cage should be down around 21-23c during the day. And then at night you want even lower around 18c. They need the cool down at night.
- Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
- 40-50 normally, when I'm watering it's around 80%. These are fine for daytime levels. Looking for a stable 40%-50%. You do not want them to sit higher for the day though. Excess moisture and the heat that his cage is currently at combined with a glass enclosure that does not have excess air flow will increase risk for a respiratory infection.
- Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
- Yes. Ficus benjamin, schefflerea, guzmania
- Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
- It's in the living room, next to the tv, on a tv stand. There is a ac in front of the tv, but not directly to the terrarium. The height of the top is about 180 cm from floor.
- Location - Where are you geographically located?
- Budapest, Hungary
So really based on what you told me I am seeing four main things in the husbandry that could cause all of the issues. The non bioactive bottom, incorrect UVB, potential for overdose with supplements since the multivitamin is unknown, and the excessive temps.
Both incorrect supplementation and incorrect UVB are big ones. These impact not only their daily activity but also their appetite. They will start slowly shutting down to the point that they end up closing the eyes and stop eating. You can end up seeing infections starting before this happens. Because the lack of UVB makes their immune system more compromised. Then when you add in things like excess heat and stagnant air from a soil bottom cage this just increases risk.
If you start correcting these basic husbandry factors it will give him the abilty to hopefully bounce back. Do not let the vet give any vitamin shots. Since we do not know what is in the multivitamin you do not want to risk a vitamin A overdose since more than likely he is already dealing with a Vitamin D3 toxicity if that multivitamin has that as well.
Let me know what questions you have.
Good resources besides us in the forum are Neptune the Chameleon on Youtube and Chameleon Academy website.
Thanks for all of this info! Let me answer and add extra questions for your comments:
Gutloading: Thanks for this image, it seems useful. I usually just give some leftover veggies or fruits, but I'll use this table in the future.
Multivitamin: Unfortunately I can't buy this product in Hungary, but I'll do some research about similar product.
Fecal descript.: Yeah, red-rose colors are sometimes present. Mostly white and brown.
Lightning: Okay, it was suggested by Mitcchar as well, and I saw it in videos as well. My only question is how can I set it up to my current topping of the terrarium? The socket is different and etc.
Grounding: I'll investigate the link about bioactive terrarium setups, but I'm afraid that I'm too noob for this so far.
Cage type: I have space issues with bigger terrariums. Sergio has a bigger ficus in the living room as well, outside of the terrarium, he spends much time there as well.
Gutloading: Thanks for this image, it seems useful. I usually just give some leftover veggies or fruits, but I'll use this table in the future.
Multivitamin: Unfortunately I can't buy this product in Hungary, but I'll do some research about similar product.
Fecal descript.: Yeah, red-rose colors are sometimes present. Mostly white and brown.
Lightning: Okay, it was suggested by Mitcchar as well, and I saw it in videos as well. My only question is how can I set it up to my current topping of the terrarium? The socket is different and etc.
Grounding: I'll investigate the link about bioactive terrarium setups, but I'm afraid that I'm too noob for this so far.
Cage type: I have space issues with bigger terrariums. Sergio has a bigger ficus in the living room as well, outside of the terrarium, he spends much time there as well.
naterowley
Established Member
HI @Lacieee ,
I experienced an issue with my panther where goop was in his eye, you can see that thread and a post from that thread here at this link
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/panther-m-2-years-old-something-off.191367/post-1790220
Is this what the goop you're seeing looks like? there is also a video in it too.
Not trying to scare you with my thread but it doesn't hurt to know.
Hoping he starts to open his eyes for you
I experienced an issue with my panther where goop was in his eye, you can see that thread and a post from that thread here at this link
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/panther-m-2-years-old-something-off.191367/post-1790220
Is this what the goop you're seeing looks like? there is also a video in it too.
Not trying to scare you with my thread but it doesn't hurt to know.
Hoping he starts to open his eyes for you
For the multivitamin see if you can get reptivite with D3. If you can't let me know what options you have and I can try to assist with this.
Are you able to just pull off the hood of the current lighting kit? Then you can have the linear UVB running across the top. To replace the heat fixtures you would just get a dome fixture and say a 60watt incandescent white bulb and this would sit on top over the basking branch.
FOr the bottom of the cage. You have two options really. Go fully bio active or pull out everything and go bare bottom. Bare bottom would require you to get a wet vac to pull the excess water out of the bottom to avoid nasty build up.
Cage size he is in is not overly off... Where this would really matter is how big he ends up. If he gets to be a bigger Male then the cage will be too confined.
Hi guys, I just want to give a brief update about Sergio. Even if he was able to 'awake' from the shutdown for a few hours, the next day in the morning I had to face the same issue. Both eyes closed, and no movement even after 2 hours after the lamps had turned on. I was so panicked I brought him to another doctor, which was advised by many chameleon keepers here in Hungary. The doctor's reaction was shocking. He said that the health condition of Sergio is terrible, the disease was much worse than the previous doctor has established. He said he sees only a small chance of surviving all these. He advised a two-week hospitalization with antibiotics, vitamins, and anti-inflammatories. Another disturbing comment was about the size. Sergio is a 10-month-old chameleon and I've already noticed that his size is way smaller than an average male panther chameleon, but never considered it a problem. He said that it can be connected to a low immune system, and it explains how could he get infected. About the size issue, the vet said could be a birth defect. He also mentioned that if he's able to survive the hospitalization, he predicts for him a maximum life amount of 2 years. Not 2 years more, overall. I've cried all day and I am super disappointed because the previous vets didn't mention this at all. Also didn't recognise his health conditions as serious. I just really hope the best for him...
So here is the thing... Husbandry meaning their enclosure set up and everything that goes into taking care of them really has to be spot on. This was why I wanted to go over all of the basics with you. If they are not getting the right UVB light and supplementation this lowers the immune system. They start failing to thrive. Number one sign of this is closing the eyes, stop eating, and become susceptible to infection.
Without making these changes you will not know if he can bounce back or not. If the vet does not have a set up that is correct for him this is also an issue because this ends up being two more weeks without the correct UVB etc. You mentioned more vitamins. This is concerning because you do not know what your multivitamin had in it. Also because you said the prior vet gave him vitamin A as well. This can be overdosed with chams. Per his size being smaller. This can actually be linked to the failure to thrive due to not having the correct UVB. They have to take down at least 2 dozen feeders while they are young as they mature into a year old. This would be daily. If they do not have the proper uvb to stimulate appetite then they do not grow and they do not grow to their full potential.
Now I am not saying he is not sick.... But what I am saying is all of this can be linked to husbandry being off which is why we correct the main one first being the UVB to ensure they can start getting what they need. I have seen chams come back to thrive once they have the right husbandry. It is not an automatic death sentence and it does not automatically mean a short life. Not unless they ran blood work and found something like renal failure which it does not sound like they ran blood work or xrays.
I hope he does bounce back from this. But if he does bounce back then everything I mentioned in the husbandry review will have to be corrected so he does not go downhill again. Best of luck to you.
