New Chameleon with Eye Issues

[Xmplary97]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male veiled chameleon, at least 4 to 5 months old, just adopted him yesterday.
• Handling - None yet other than taking him home and putting him in his new enclosure and taking a picture of him.
• Feeding - I purchased some medium superworms from the store, have a dubia colony at home, and plan to order some calciworms/soldier fly larva and hornworms to offer as well.
• Supplements - Zoomed Calcium w/o D3, Repashy Calcium Plus (I have LoD version on order), I have reptivite as well but I can never get it to stick to anything so I think I may have a bad batch though it is still in date. I have not offered him food yet and know that chams need calcium w/o D3 daily and multivitamin roughly every 2 weeks.
• Watering - Hand misting the enclosure heavily in the evening and early morning, I have a misting system on the way to automate this process.
• Fecal Description - N/A have not seen this guy defecate yet
• History - I want to start by saying I used to work at a pet store (lets not get stuck on that please) and happened to be in there getting food for my other critters yesterday and they begged me to get this guy out of the store. He has been there for roughly three months, has had constant eye infections due to URIs that have been treated and was adopted out to someone who claimed to be knowledgeable about Chams but ended up putting him in a habitat with another one, let him get bullied/attacked, and let him starve for 5 days before returning him to my former store for 'not eating'. Before going to the first adopter, his eyes were normal except for a residual bump from the back-to-back infections. Upon returning to the store both his eyes remain shut and one is swollen

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 18x18x36 Screen Enclosure, since he cannot see at all I have it turned on its side but can flip it to be vertical if it needs to be. Only set it up this way due to my concern of him falling, he has evidence of MBD (curved crest) so don't want him to fall and break something. I will upgrade to the recommended 2x2x4 or 36x18x36 once I feel confident in his ability to move about without him falling.
• Lighting - The deluxe kit included a 12inch linear T5 5% UVB bulb and a 75w basking bulb, I will be picking up a 24" zoomed T5 fixture with a 5% UVB bulb to give more UV coverage for the current habitat configuration. I generally run my lights 12 on/12 off with a timer.
• Temperature - Basking spot gets to around 83F from me testing it before bed last night, my room averages around mid 70s getting up to 76-78F during the day when my tv/pc are on night drops to low 70s never below 68F. I have an accurite temperature monitors spread throughout my room, this kiddo specifically has a probe thermometer attached near his basking spot and I have a thermal gun as well.
• Humidity - Average room humidity is usually 30-40%, I heavily misted the enclosure up to 100% humidity last night and got it up to about 85% before leaving for work this morning. I put a spare accurite monitor within the middle of the enclosure for now. (Again misting system has been ordered to automate this process as well as more temp/humidity gauges)
• Plants - Not at this time, just because the usually place I go for plants was closed when I picked him up. I have some for my bioactive enclosures for my crested geckos but most of them are two small at this time to do him any good. He does have plastic and silk plants in the meantime for coverage, and a moss mat at the bottom to give some cushion if he falls but that will probably not stay since it has shed so much already and I know they can accumulate bacterial quickly.
• Placement - Will be off in the opposite corner of my room where my other reptiles are, he will be by a door but the door will open to block the view of the enclosure when opened. Vent is on the opposite wall where enclosure will be officially placed. Right now, the enclosure is on a chest to keep him off the floor. I'm the only one who goes in and out of my room, and he will be out of view of the TV.
• Location - Northeastern OK, Tulsa Area

Current Problem -
I've had a Chameleon a few years ago so I'm familiar with their general care but mine never had eye issues. My biggest concern is both of his eyes are shut, one of them is swollen and he cannot see. He had just recently been seen by the most well-regarded reptile vet in our area (not to be rude but he's been in the practice a long time and a lot of his information is outdated so I'm always skeptical with his diagnosis...) and states both of his pupils are blown and the cham is essentially blind. As of right now that statement is true as his eyes are shut, he reaches blindly (but carefully) when moving and has been force fed bugs to keep his energy up at the store. I was essentially given a zoomed deluxe chameleon kit to take him home in and working on getting things ordered to get him set up 100% correctly.
Like mentioned above, the enclosure is currently set up horizontally rather than vertically at this time due to my concern of him falling but will change this if someone could give me advice on how to make a vertical setup that would be safe for him. I have a misting system on the way, will be picking up a longer UVB light tonight, after some research I ordered some Terramycin ointment since this poor kid has had a history of eye issues from his constant URIs. He does not currently have a URI (per last vet visit just the other day), body condition could be worse considering what he's been through.
Obvious concerns that go along with not being able to see is keeping him hydrated and fed, I made sure to drop a few drops of water on his snout last night which he swallowed after running away. I don't want to hurt him by pulling his mouth open if I can avoid it, my current idea is to let him get huffy with me (which he was happy to show off when I was moving him to and from his transport container) and put a worm or roach in his mouth for him to hopefully eat *sorta* on his own.

I'm open to advice, I've been away from complex reptiles for a while focusing on my geckos and this guy just fell into my lap.

Picture of kiddo with his bad eye, the picture doesn't make it look as bad as I feel it looks like in real-life as it is quite swollen compared to his other eye.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. Give me a bit of time to go over your husbandry. Hopefully the solution is there.

 

[MissSkittles]

I’ll be putting my feedback in bold. For ease of everything, I’ll be breaking this into two parts.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male veiled chameleon, at least 4 to 5 months old, just adopted him yesterday. I’m going to guess more along the line of 5 months.
• Handling - None yet other than taking him home and putting him in his new enclosure and taking a picture of him. Very good. He needs time to settle in to his new home.
• Feeding - I purchased some medium superworms from the store, have a dubia colony at home, and plan to order some calciworms/soldier fly larva and hornworms to offer as well. Superworms are more for treats as they are fatty and addictive. I think of them as reptile candy. Attaching feeder and gutloading graphics. While most of us don’t specifically gutload in the true sense, we do keep our bugs well fed and as healthy as possible, so that they are more nutritious. Btw, grasshoppers are available from 2 sellers if you’re interested. https://feedmychameleon.com/ and Kai Phan on Facebook (pm him if you want to buy).
• Supplements - Zoomed Calcium w/o D3, Repashy Calcium Plus (I have LoD version on order), I have reptivite as well but I can never get it to stick to anything so I think I may have a bad batch though it is still in date. I have not offered him food yet and know that chams need calcium w/o D3 daily and multivitamin roughly every 2 weeks. Perfect once you get the LoD. Yes, you’ll use the LoD for one feeding every other week or twice a month.
• Watering - Hand misting the enclosure heavily in the evening and early morning, I have a misting system on the way to automate this process. Perfect. When setting up your mister, set it for at least 2 minutes right before lights go on and off. If urates are showing too much yellow or orange, you could add a 1 minute misting in the afternoon, or even better, if your night temps are consistently below at least 68F, you can add fogging at night. That simulates the hydration cycle in the wild thru fog.
• Fecal Description - N/A have not seen this guy defecate yet You’ll definitely want to get a fecal for parasites done. That does mean a vet visit as well.
• History - I want to start by saying I used to work at a pet store (lets not get stuck on that please) and happened to be in there getting food for my other critters yesterday and they begged me to get this guy out of the store. He has been there for roughly three months, has had constant eye infections due to URIs that have been treated and was adopted out to someone who claimed to be knowledgeable about Chams but ended up putting him in a habitat with another one, let him get bullied/attacked, and let him starve for 5 days before returning him to my former store for 'not eating'. Before going to the first adopter, his eyes were normal except for a residual bump from the back-to-back infections. Upon returning to the store both his eyes remain shut and one is swollen Poor little guy! I haven’t looked at the rest of your husbandry yet, but yes, it could be a residual infection causing his eyes to be closed. More at the end.

 

[MissSkittles]

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 18x18x36 Screen Enclosure, since he cannot see at all I have it turned on its side but can flip it to be vertical if it needs to be. Only set it up this way due to my concern of him falling, he has evidence of MBD (curved crest) so don't want him to fall and break something. I will upgrade to the recommended 2x2x4 or 36x18x36 once I feel confident in his ability to move about without him falling. Ok, glad you’re aware that he will need bigger/taller. However, there are some other changes that will need to be made and I’ll be sounding like a jerk here. I promise I’m not. You’ll need to replace all of the artificial plants with safe washed live ones. Veileds like to nibble (or devour) their plants and it only takes one bite of a fake leaf to cause a serious and potentially fatal bowel obstruction. Pothos is one of the most versatile for chameleons. Do check this out for some safe plants and how best to use them. https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ You also need to remove the moss - also a bowel obstruction risk. It looks like you have the black Exo Terra vine. Those seem great, but they shed tiny particles that always seem to find their way into sensitive little googly eyes. The hammock needs to go too. Little claws tend to get stuck and easily pulled out from hammocks (even happens to bearded dragons). You also need to add lots LOTS more branches and vines - chameleon roads. You can use natural branches that you can scavenge for. Just avoid pine, eucalyptus and others which have heavy sap or odor. Oak is perfect and pretty much everywhere. Wash with dish soap, rinse super well and let dry in the sun. To attach branches, vines and plants, you may want to get some Dragon Ledges. https://dragonstrand.com/dragon-ledges/ Another option is garden trellis.
• Lighting - The deluxe kit included a 12inch linear T5 5% UVB bulb and a 75w basking bulb, I will be picking up a 24" zoomed T5 fixture with a 5% UVB bulb to give more UV coverage for the current habitat configuration. I generally run my lights 12 on/12 off with a timer. Yes. Make sure that the distance between basking area and your uvb isn’t any farther than about 8-9”.
• Temperature - Basking spot gets to around 83F from me testing it before bed last night, my room averages around mid 70s getting up to 76-78F during the day when my tv/pc are on night drops to low 70s never below 68F. I have an accurite temperature monitors spread throughout my room, this kiddo specifically has a probe thermometer attached near his basking spot and I have a thermal gun as well. Perfect temp for a boy. Night temps aren’t low enough for fogging.
• Humidity - Average room humidity is usually 30-40%, Perfect I heavily misted the enclosure up to 100% humidity last night and got it up to about 85% before leaving for work this morning. Only if the temps is below 68 should you increase humidity like this. Otherwise it’s potentially risking a respiratory infection. I put a spare accurite monitor within the middle of the enclosure for now. (Again misting system has been ordered to automate this process as well as more temp/humidity gauges)
• Plants - Not at this time, just because the usually place I go for plants was closed when I picked him up. I have some for my bioactive enclosures for my crested geckos but most of them are two small at this time to do him any good. He does have plastic and silk plants in the meantime for coverage, and a moss mat at the bottom to give some cushion if he falls but that will probably not stay since it has shed so much already and I know they can accumulate bacterial quickly. Yes. I already covered this above. I get all of my plants from Lowe’s, Home Depot and Walmart.
• Placement - Will be off in the opposite corner of my room where my other reptiles are, he will be by a door but the door will open to block the view of the enclosure when opened. Vent is on the opposite wall where enclosure will be officially placed. Right now, the enclosure is on a chest to keep him off the floor. I'm the only one who goes in and out of my room, and he will be out of view of the TV. Ok. Do block his view of your other reptiles. While some don’t seem to care if they can see other animals, some really obsess if they can.
• Location - Northeastern OK, Tulsa Area
• Current Problem-
  I've had a Chameleon a few years ago so I'm familiar with their general care but mine never had eye issues. My biggest concern is both of his eyes are shut, one of them is swollen and he cannot see. He had just recently been seen by the most well-regarded reptile vet in our area (not to be rude but he's been in the practice a long time and a lot of his information is outdated so I'm always skeptical with his diagnosis...) and states both of his pupils are blown and the cham is essentially blind. This could very well be. If you want, you could get a second opinion, or wait and see if he gets his vision back. As of right now that statement is true as his eyes are shut, he reaches blindly (but carefully) when moving and has been force fed bugs to keep his energy up at the store. I was essentially given a zoomed deluxe chameleon kit to take him home in and working on getting things ordered to get him set up 100% correctly.
  Like mentioned above, the enclosure is currently set up horizontally rather than vertically at this time due to my concern of him falling but will change this if someone could give me advice on how to make a vertical setup that would be safe for him. I have a misting system on the way, will be picking up a longer UVB light tonight, after some research I ordered some Terramycin ointment since this poor kid has had a history of eye issues from his constant URIs. He does not currently have a URI (per last vet visit just the other day), body condition could be worse considering what he's been through.
  Obvious concerns that go along with not being able to see is keeping him hydrated and fed, I made sure to drop a few drops of water on his snout last night which he swallowed after running away. I don't want to hurt him by pulling his mouth open if I can avoid it, my current idea is to let him get huffy with me (which he was happy to show off when I was moving him to and from his transport container) and put a worm or roach in his mouth for him to hopefully eat *sorta* on his own.
  
  I'm open to advice, I've been away from complex reptiles for a while focusing on my geckos and this guy just fell into my lap.
  
  Picture of kiddo with his bad eye, the picture doesn't make it look as bad as I feel it looks like in real-life as it is quite swollen compared to his other eye.

So, he may very well be permanently blind in both eyes from the repeated infections. I don’t think putting antiobiotic ointment in his eyes will be of help unless he is showing signs of an active infection. Now while your husbandry is good, I have no idea what his care was at the pet store or with the person that took him. Was he given a multivitamin with preformed vitamin A that we know chameleons can utilize? Was he given any multivitamin and any form of vitamin A? Was he given not enough or too much of a supplement? What type of uvb and lighting has he had? What has his humidity been? Has he been shedding well or maybe shed has gotten trapped in an eye? Maybe he damaged his eyes while rubbing them on something when shedding. I’m sure there’s plenty of other possible causes for an eye issue. But then is it really his eyes or is it something else causing him to close his eyes and give up, waiting to die? Maybe it’s a bit of both.
I can’t tell you what you should do. You could get see other vets and get their opinions or you could wait and see. It is possible that with your correct care and TLC, he’ll recover fully into a ‘normal’ sighted chameleon…or a ‘normal’ blind chameleon. In time I imagine he would adjust and need only minimal assistance with finding his food. Perhaps @kinyonga has some advice from her wealth of experience. You may want to read this. https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...ot-just-the-title-not-a-real-question.180461/ Unfortunately that member hasn’t been around for about a year. Wish I could be of more help.

 

[Xmplary97]

@MissSkittles I appreciate all the feedback.

• Superworms aren't just for him but for my other geckos as well, it just happened to be in their rotation this week and thought they would be okay for him as well so I will keep in mind to limit them.
• I'm looking into other vet options, but from working at that store I'm already aware the options for qualified (and trusted) exotic vets is few and far between, especially those that deal with reptiles.
• I plan on hitting up the local plant nursery when they open back up after the Holiday, they always have better quality plants than the hardware stores and I know they don't use systematic pesticides on their house plants which is always one of my concerns. Branches are planned as well, it was pouring rain yesterday so I didn't get the chance to go through the pile in my backyard. I've used plastic lattice fencing for branch support with my last Cham and it worked well to prevent to much destruction to the mesh cage.
• Is having the enclosure on its side okay for the time being? I feel if I can get some decent plants picked up I can give enough coverage so IF he does fall he would have plenty to grab onto. If the green mesh style hammocks are a no, what about the woven ones? I was thinking of putting them a foot from the bottom so if he did happen to fall in a vertical enclosure, he wouldn't hit the hard plastic bottom.
• The other reptiles are in PVC habitats so most of their enclosures are blocked form his view. Once he is moved into the spot I want him his angle shouldn't allow much if any visibility of the others.

As for the pet store care, I have not worked there in a while but the guidelines for feeding and supplementation typically went: daily feeding of appropriately sized crickets and a bowl of mealworms, if they used supplements it would of been calcium w/ d3 or retivite. UVB I was told was an issue as the old animal manager apparently did not replace the bulbs like she should have, but the bulbs have been replaced within the last month on the floor- T8 bulb 10% UVB, heat bulbs were night bulbs and should have been 50w getting the habitat to roughly 80F. Chams were generally misted morning/night, couldn't give you an exact percentage as it always varied with who did the misting. Being back and forth from the vet for his URIs put him in wellness in a tank for at least a week at a time.

My plan for today was get advice and research the other known exotic vets in my area while at work to schedule a visit for a second opinion. I'm going to try and let him settle, but also try to get his enclosure fixed up for him this week to make it more comfortable for him. I don't usually impulsively bring an animal home but knew I couldn't leave him there for someone who would just jump at the thought of a 'free' chameleon.

 

[MissSkittles]

Yeah, he should be fine with the enclosure on its side for now. If he’s falling or having trouble getting around, we usually advise using a hospital bin, which is just limiting space so they can’ climb or get hurt.
From my personal experience and what I’ve read here, the majority of vets are lacking in regards to knowledge of current chameleon husbandry. Far too many of us have been told that we need to give our chams warm baths/showers, increase basking temps to 90’s and so many other wrong things. As long as they know the disease processes and appropriate treatment, that is all I care about. I’m attaching a list of current vets who other members have had experiences with. Usually some bit of travel is needed.