Opinions on Chameleon Pricing

[abramyan]

Please read the comments and then tell me if you are still curious about there prices.

 

[jaglon53]

I just think you really want a panther I also think panthers are one of the coolest looking creatures on this earth. Some prices are high some prices are low but in the end whether you buy a high priced panther or a low priced one. You buy the panther you like the most.

 

[summoner12]

Breeding isn't cheap... even so, the price of a panther has nothing to do with the cost of raising it, as has been said.

People need to realize that chameleons are not cheap. The supplies aren't cheap, the upkeep isn't cheap, the vet bill isn't cheap and the feeder bill isn't cheap.

think about the salt water people. HUGE money in setting that up. Chameleons are sort of in that same boat. Not REALLY a beginners animal. if you want to do it right and have a nice looking cham/setup, you'll have to spend the money to get it.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I personally am not nearly as enamored by Furcifer pardalis as I am with most other species. Because I find other species that much more appealing, the prices of F. pardalis exceed what I'm willing to pay for them. As a result, I simply do not work with them. If other people are willing to pay those prices, I'm happy for the breeder and the buyer if they are happy, but it isn't for me.

My issue is not with the price F. pardalis is able to command but with the price those who produce far rarer and more difficult species are forced to sell their offspring for. I fully understand its an issue of low demand because of a cheaper alternative, but when the supply of that lesser quality alternative (WC specimens of the same species) is so high that the price for that lesser quality alternative makes production of high quality CB/CH specimens pointless, there is a real problem. Such scenarios are far too common with chameleons and result in huge exportation of many species from the wild, huge mortality rates of those animals that are exported, little-to-no efforts to produce captive bred alternatives, and ultimately, when the export shuts down, which it is going to do at some point, the animals disappear from the captive market.

Chris

 

[davthevieled]

I just want to post this out there... my two cents....


I honestly think it is almost vulgar with this bloated ego of... "It is expensive because the wealthy are the only ones who give a crap about taking care of things". Here I am, sitting at probably around 30k a year with an apartment and the only one with a job in the house hold. I sit here and care for each and every one of my chams, beardies, geckos, and snake. I prioritize and put my animals first before myself. A bit of advice, just because it is "expensive to keep" doesn't mean it is only for the rich and the wealthy. I would HATE to see this attitude spread across the market.... Meller's are about 150-300 depending if it is WC/CB. I own one. Considerably more difficult than owning a Panther correct? How in the heck can you JUSTIFY to someone who can care for something more difficult on a budget than someone who can care without giving a poop on how much they spend?

Yes, they have a price in how to keep them. That price doesn't display who should take care of them.

Again, my two cents.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

I personally am not nearly as enamored by Furcifer pardalis as I am with most other species. Because I find other species that much more appealing, the prices of F. pardalis exceed what I'm willing to pay for them. As a result, I simply do not work with them. If other people are willing to pay those prices, I'm happy for the breeder and the buyer if they are happy, but it isn't for me.

My issue is not with the price F. pardalis is able to command but with the price those who produce far rarer and more difficult species are forced to sell their offspring for. I fully understand its an issue of low demand because of a cheaper alternative, but when the supply of that lesser quality alternative (WC specimens of the same species) is so high that the price for that lesser quality alternative makes production of high quality CB/CH specimens pointless, there is a real problem. Such scenarios are far too common with chameleons and result in huge exportation of many species from the wild, huge mortality rates of those animals that are exported, little-to-no efforts to produce captive bred alternatives, and ultimately, when the export shuts down, which it is going to do at some point, the animals disappear from the captive market.

Chris

Chris, I totally agree with your comments and I often wonder, what it would take to elevate other chameleon species in the eye of the hobbyist? I personally started with Fischers and they still remain my favourite. Its hard to understand why there is less appeal for these chams.

I imported 65 Tanz chams last spring . I brought in Mt Merus, Werners and Fischers. I was very careful to screen any purchasers to insure that no females were sold without a male available and that the buyer fully intended to breed. And , without disclosing price, I did get a premium on the sales.

Will the more obscure chams become popular with time, as the hobby matures or does it require a large educational/ promotional effort?

 

[JackP308]

If you're in it for the hobby you can give your clutches away for free, so since you sound like your so well off you Mine as well. That still isn't going to change much. Businesses need to make money bottom line and for them to continually sell $99 panther chameleons probably leaves a negative or small profit margin. Yes some rarer species should be more but they don't sell so thats why they are not. I see geckos go for $1000 or more and you think Panther Chameleons are over priced. I have a clutch due to hatch in near future I know Im going to either give some to friends and sell for $100 just because as you Im not in it for business or profit and yes I know I have to be losing money but this is what I do for fun. some of the locale and bloodline pricing get little out of hand but so be it I just won't buy them I have a choice.

Yes it would be nice if everyone wasted 1000's to bring us cheap chameleons., for fun but is that really being fair to people doing it for business and to make a living. Im glad I don't see panthers at pet stores for under $100. The most I paid though I think was around $200 and Im very happy that I did. I spend more on pizza in a month than that. I also got one for $100 and wasn't what I wanted but she's good. Can you lower gas prices too and crab legs too thank you.

 

[Trace]

Chris; my sentiments exactly. For the record I do like Panthers; some are absolutely gorgeous. For me though, they are not worth the exorbitant price to keep one as a pet.

Chris, I totally agree with your comments and I often wonder, what it would take to elevate other chameleon species in the eye of the hobbyist? I personally started with Fischers and they still remain my favourite. Its hard to understand why there is less appeal for these chams.

Will the more obscure chams become popular with time, as the hobby matures or does it require a large educational/ promotional effort?

A lot of newcomers are discouraged by existing people in the hobby from buying the weird species because they are wild caught and difficult to acclimate among other reasons. And rightly so! However, this is such a transient hobby and I think a lot of people don’t stick with it long term to discover the joys of owning something besides Panthers and Veileds. Plus there are the people who get bitten by the chameleon bug and think they will become the “next big thing” in breeding because they hatched a clutch of calyptratus and in my experience those people disappear even faster.

 

[eisentrauti]

Its all about demand and supply. Thank god we dont live in communistic states

Pardalis have their relative high price tag because they are
- excellent display animals, many people just buy a single male for this purpose
- easy to keep
- in comparison to some other chameleons a kind of investment. The threads where people plan to make big money with breeding them are numerous
- at least in some states in the US cheap to keep ! Here in Germany I have to keep a pardalis min. 8months inside. Means 8 months with 100s and 1000s of kWh of energy just for an animal. Those are hundrets of € just for electricity bills.
In Florida or California it's possible to keep them most of the year outside. So if you are intelligent enough to breed your own feeders, those large chameleons can be kept with nearly zero monthly costs !

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Jr

I don't disagree with you at all. It's called "the Paris Hilton" effect. I won't own a panther for many reasons mostly they are ugly and unnatural looking , beside being too trendy. They are obviously not in short supply either and have exceeded demand. At the same time you have people selling their used panthers trying to get top dollar which is insane. Sometimes it makes me question the intelligence of chameleon owners.

Look at the mutt dog industry, they change the name to designer dogs. And now they are the trendy dogs to own, in the past you couldn't give em away.

Eventually it corrects itself. When the new "it" breed comes around.

If panthers are "trendy" then they have been trendy for almost 20 yrs. Actually the prices of panthers has dropped considerably in the last 10 yrs. Back in the mid 90's panthers went for a min of $300 and up. And it didnt matter if they were ambanja, nosy be, etc... Now the only pardalis you can charge that much for are the rare locales like falys, mitsios, ankaramy, & a cpl more. The common stuff like ambi's, banjas, be's can be had for half that price.

Bottom line is ppl like beautiful flashy things. Whether it be animals or jewelry the bling factor has a lot to do with it.

 

[Kitro]

If panthers are "trendy" then they have been trendy for almost 20 yrs. Actually the prices of panthers has dropped considerably in the last 10 yrs. Back in the mid 90's panthers went for a min of $300 and up. And it didnt matter if they were ambanja, nosy be, etc... Now the only pardalis you can charge that much for are the rare locales like falys, mitsios, ankaramy, & a cpl more. The common stuff like ambi's, banjas, be's can be had for half that price.

Bottom line is ppl like beautiful flashy things. Whether it be animals or jewelry the bling factor has a lot to do with it.

Hogwash, the prices have been the same since captive breeding began on them. The only time they were higher is when the only ones available were wc's. Now the bloodlines are so diluted for the trendy buyers pretty toys. Look at pictures in books 20 years or older and compare them to current panthers, they were designer bred for the trendy market. Just like the orchid market.

I appreciate that you have made it quite clear and agree that they are nothing more than a designer pet. They aren't bling and shouldn't be treated as such. If you enjoy overpaying for stuff I'm sure Dulce and Hardy know your name already.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Hogwash, the prices have been the same since captive breeding began on them. The only time they were higher is when the only ones available were wc's. Now the bloodlines are so diluted for the trendy buyers pretty toys. Look at pictures in books 20 years or older and compare them to current panthers, they were designer bred for the trendy market. Just like the orchid market.

I appreciate that you have made it quite clear and agree that they are nothing more than a designer pet. They aren't bling and shouldn't be treated as such. If you enjoy overpaying for stuff I'm sure Dulce and Hardy know your name already.

And you know this how? I was a member of the Cin and have been breeding off and on for over 10 yrs. How many yrs exp do you have? I know what ppl were paying for ambanjas and true blue nosy be's in the 90's. And it wasnt $150.00. In fact a true blue nosy be cost about the same as a parsonni back then. I can remember the first guy I saw with actual cb blue nosys and he was selling them for $600 a piece and they went fast too.

I dont consider my chams "bling" all i was trying to say was flashy animals tend to sell for higher prices. Your just arguing for the sake of arguing your point....

So tell me how many clutches have you produced or sold?

 

[Kitro]

And you know this how? I was a member of the Cin and have been breeding off and on for over 10 yrs. How many yrs exp do you have? I know what ppl were paying for ambanjas and true blue nosy be's in the 90's. And it wasnt $150.00. In fact a true blue nosy be cost about the same as a parsonni back then. I can remember the first guy I saw with actual cb blue nosys and he was selling them for $600 a piece and they went fast too.

I dont consider my chams "bling" all i was trying to say was flashy animals tend to sell for higher prices. Your just arguing for the sake of arguing your point....

So tell me how many clutches have you produced or sold?

From 77-84 I owned and operated Devol's pets in orange, ca. During which time we supplied Kmart and Five&Dime stores in southern cal with all their reptiles and fish. In 86-91 we strictly sold at the La Mirada outdoor market, selling chinchillas, ferrets, tegus , pythons and Jackson as well as various turtles and supplies. In 92 I purchased the Shirt Factory and became a reptile hobbyist until 99. In 2000 I opened my first dispensary and currently own 5 in California as well as 2 medical facilities in Oregon. Needless to say I have done my fair share of breeding most likely before you were born. I no longer hold any of my importer licenses except for Czech glass. Chameleons are my hobby not my business and being in the industry long enough I can spot the trends a mile a way. Pathers are gonna be the new Blue pits. It's a trend. That's it. I'm not saying I have made my fair share of wealth from trends but I find the morals of most chameleon breeders to be shady at best. When we start seeing genetic bloodline tracing then I can accept the pricing at it's current state it's just someones say so and pictures of selective breeding. I can trace my dogs genetics back with documented proof can't say that about my chameleons.

 

[Olimpia]

It's why you don't see the little brown finches in pet stores but you see the bright yellow and orange canaries for $120+

People like color, you can't blame them. It's why people pay a little more to have a red or blue car, instead of a beige one.

Not to say that rarer species are "beige," because there are certainly some that I think are lovely, but you can't blame people (myself included) for wanting to go for the bright, solid red and blue striped animal.

Plus, like I said earlier, we tend to scare others from trying out those species on this forum. We make it sound like you have keep a veiled years before you can try anything "harder" than a panther. And this may not be true in the case of everyone, but we make them sound really scary, probably unduly so. So it's bound to turn people off to trying other species.

 

[Kitro]

It's why you don't see the little brown finches in pet stores but you see the bright yellow and orange canaries for $120+

People like color, you can't blame them. It's why people pay a little more to have a red or blue car, instead of a beige one.

Not to say that rarer species are "beige," because there are certainly some that I think are lovely, but you can't blame people (myself included) for wanting to go for the bright, solid red and blue striped animal.

Plus, like I said earlier, we tend to scare others from trying out those species on this forum. We make it sound like you have keep a veiled years before you can try anything "harder" than a panther. And this may not be true in the case of everyone, but we make them sound really scary, probably unduly so. So it's bound to turn people off to trying other species.

I agree with you purty things attract most people. I prefer unique and unusual. But also people are attracted to false "hype" where they believe they are becoming part of some elite group by buying a certain product. I like to use Ed Hardy shirts as an example of such. Their is nothing special about them they are nothing more than a tshirt that cost less than $2 blank and another 50 cents for the printing. But people will pay $250 for them to be in the trend with their peers. Even though there are millions of them for some odd reason people feel that need. I feel the same is happening to panthers it's not their fault, and if I was a breeder for profit of them I am certain I would take what I could get for them as well but at the same time would feel guilty doing it to a hobbyist.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

From 77-84 I owned and operated Devol's pets in orange, ca. During which time we supplied Kmart and Five&Dime stores in southern cal with all their reptiles and fish. In 86-91 we strictly sold at the La Mirada outdoor market, selling chinchillas, ferrets, tegus , pythons and Jackson as well as various turtles and supplies. In 92 I purchased the Shirt Factory and became a reptile hobbyist until 99. In 2000 I opened my first dispensary and currently own 5 in California as well as 2 medical facilities in Oregon. Needless to say I have done my fair share of breeding most likely before you were born. I no longer hold any of my importer licenses except for Czech glass. Chameleons are my hobby not my business and being in the industry long enough I can spot the trends a mile a way. Pathers are gonna be the new Blue pits. It's a trend. That's it. I'm not saying I have made my fair share of wealth from trends but I find the morals of most chameleon breeders to be shady at best. When we start seeing genetic bloodline tracing then I can accept the pricing at it's current state it's just someones say so and pictures of selective breeding. I can trace my dogs genetics back with documented proof can't say that about my chameleons.

Theres a big difference between wholesaling wc's and breeding and working over many yrs to refine your bloodlines. We are dealing with exotic animals not domesticated canines that have been bred for 100's of yrs in most cases. I can trace my bloodlines back to the orginal wc's that came in to the US. Of course I realize that i still have to trust the importer & exporter that they are faly, mitsio, etc... But after yrs of exp I know my locales.

I consider a trendy pet to be something along the lines of a labradoodle. 20 yrs ago those would be considered a heinz 57 mutt. Now they sell for 500 or more. Pardalis are not a hybrid or cross of two diff species that were "manufactured" by mans hand. Pardalis are blue, red, white, green, etc... in the wild. Look at those books again, the ambanjas that came in 20 yrs ago look the same as ambanjas being imported & bred today. Now Im not saying ppl havent worked to bring out certain characteristics or colors but the exact same things occur in dog breeding, horse breeding, etc...

If you dont want a pardalis then dont buy one. But calling ppl dumb or whatever because they do is very short sighted and rude. I think theres a species out there for everyone. The thing is more ppl need to pick a species they truly love and work with them. So we'd have more cb's of the rarer stuff. I'd love to work w montanes myself but my climate is more conduscive to veileds, pardalis, ousties, verrus, carpets. So thats why I chose what I chose. I thought about the region the animals come from first before I purchased them.

 

[Kitro]

Texas,

show me where I said people are dumb? Naive yes but dumb no. Olimpia even said they tend to push newbies away from other chammy. To something "easier" to care for. The forums themselves will show you how dishonest that is. I don't see anyone posting help me with my carpet or spectral it's all veiled and panthers . It's because they have been steered to those because that's where the bigger profit margin is not because its the easiest.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't necessarily think it's a profit thing, to scare people away from harder species. If you sit on the forums as many hours as I do (man, need more hobbies besides this forum and studying) you see that it's mainly other new memebers/owners that scare each other. It's like "I repeat what I've been told" over and over - they've been told that panthers and veileds are easier and hardier and when anyone says "I've been looking for a first chameleon and like Jacksons (or carpets, or whatever)" people repeat what they were told, that you can't possibly have success with anything other than a panther or veiled until you have lots of success with one of those. You even see new members say that you can't possibly even start out with a panther, and only recommend veileds.

I started out with a Jackson's (with whom I had no issues or mistakes with, whatsoever) and people strongly urged me against doing that. Not people that were breeding panthers or stood to gain something but just other members. I don't know if I'm making sense, but it's new members scaring other new members because they themselves have been scared that at any second they may kill their veiled for any reason at all. So I don't find a huge amount of encouragement for people to go beyond veileds and panthers when they feel competent enough to.

Don't know if I make sense, I'm typing while I cook so I don't know how it's coming along!

 

[Kitro]

Olimpia,

You are making sense I just think it's a rather pricey first step

 

[allencg101]

Buy good quality chams is that of gettig a tattoo. Good tattoos arent cheap. Cheap tattoos arent good!!! If u want quality you gotta pay for it