ChameleonAlley
New Member
Don't quote me for fact, but I'm pretty sure Bulldogs HAVE to be artificially inseminated because they don't naturally produce. And they also have just a couple pups. Going to check my facts now....lol...
Opinions on Chameleon Pricing
- Thread starter jrh3
- Start date
Oh those c-section bulldogs still can have plenty of pups! The last one I saw had 10 pups. That is definitely true about English bulldogs but I didn't realize frenchies needed c-sections almost as much as English bulldogs. We don't see those very often at all around here. So that does kind of ruin my example...oh well, the OP has ignored everything I've posted anyway. 
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ChameleonAlley
New Member
Oh those c-section bulldogs still can have plenty of pups! The last one I saw had 10 pups. That is definitely true about English bulldogs but I didn't realize frenchies needed c-sections almost as much as English bulldogs. We don't see those very often at all around here. So that does kind of ruin my example...oh well, the OP has ignored everything I've posted anyway.
Wow, I didn't know they could have that many! I'm in no way schooled in dog breeding, lol! Yeah, I'll bet the c section costs and insemination costs can be high. I don't know, but I would think a female couldn't be c sectioned many times?
The cham cost argument comes up a lot. I think people should charge whatever they want to charge. That's the way of the free market. I can only go off of my experience, and say that if I were to sell a cham for $90.00, I'd be losing money. I believe there's truth in the saying, "Time is money." Even if someone was breeding and selling chams as a hobby, you're still using your time to tend to those animals. This is time that could be spent on other things such as work. Everyone who professionally breeds or breeds as a hobby has invested costs. This is going to differ from breeder to breeder, but being in this hobby/slash business, I know it's not cheap.
yankfanthom
Established Member
Maybe everyone who thinks a panther should cost $90.00 and think they can do it for that should not shower, pitch a tent, grab a piece of cardboard, write Occupy Chameleon Forums on it and say you are the 99%. The rest of us will continue with the horrible capitalism of Chameleon breeding and pricing. Not sure if I'm losing any sleep over it.
Seeco
Avid Member
There is another explanation here:
Impulse
Impulse and bright flashy things go hand in hand. Panther males are one of the few animals that are bright and flash enough to sway ANY human being to spend a large amount of money.
The fair / representative price of panthers should probably be 40 - 60 bucks cheaper but a red sports car is always gonna cost more than a brown one.
Impulse
Impulse and bright flashy things go hand in hand. Panther males are one of the few animals that are bright and flash enough to sway ANY human being to spend a large amount of money.
The fair / representative price of panthers should probably be 40 - 60 bucks cheaper but a red sports car is always gonna cost more than a brown one.
batmancumming
New Member
doesn't matter who sells them?? lol yes it does....to me....the customer. its been mentioned in this thread already....supply and demand. people will pay $$$ for a cham with beautiful colors. if i'm going to get one, im going to make sure i get it from someone with a good reputation
perry123
New Member
I kinda see what you mean. My chameleon room costed a lot to get every thing set. I had to get it temperature controlled all the supplies with the rack it costed a lot. Then I sell the babies under $75 it cant pay for itself unless I produced a lot of them. Also to other people without montanes if you know what your doing and have the right setup and schedule for misting, dusting, and etc they can be easy. They just might require more time and attention then other chams.
Elizadolots
New Member
Exactly...they are the glittery jewel that attracts everyone. As such, they cost more.
robmd1
Avid Member
This thread is boring now because you're just arguing with anyone who answers with no particular point in mind other than they are too expensive...so don't buy one.
I agree dont buy one an go ahead an selll your chams all day at 99 bucks...
SilverDragoness
New Member
French and English bulldogs aside. (yes they can be c-sectioned multiple times they just build up more scar tissue and it sucks to close)
Why are we responding to troll like posting? If he wants to waste money doing what he wants then fine. Who cares that is up to him and his family what he wants to do. If he makes the panther chameleon market crash then maybe we can pay attention but until then this arguing is going nowhere.
Neither side is convinced by the others points. Debate is kind of pointless without trying to understand both sides of the issue. That said it's been kind of entertaining to read all this. Moving on to the more informative threads about health and welfare now.
Why are we responding to troll like posting? If he wants to waste money doing what he wants then fine. Who cares that is up to him and his family what he wants to do. If he makes the panther chameleon market crash then maybe we can pay attention but until then this arguing is going nowhere.
Neither side is convinced by the others points. Debate is kind of pointless without trying to understand both sides of the issue. That said it's been kind of entertaining to read all this.
Moving on to the more informative threads about health and welfare now. 
danibug23
New Member
i see where he is going but.. if i was going to buy a chameleon for 90 bucks i would really have to trust the person to know they have been taking care of the chameleon or i would have to know them personally, because either A. they are trying to just get rid of them so they are selling them at a low price or B. they didn't spend near as much as you should for taking proper care of a chameleon.
Ace
Avid Member
To me thats only true if you want to breed and if you are talking about females...males dont shorten their life while breeding, as far as breeding is concerned, and as far as limited time, nothing really lasts forever, panther males with good care can las easily 7-10 yrars females 5-7 if you breed depends.
Overall the time being used is pointless if you just want a pet..they will die eventually which you would know their estimated lifespan upon researching. Farfetched example is Just like adopting dogs from the shelter...
The holdbacks thing is a soso...some breedera keep quality potential breeders and just change their minds and offer it for sake...a more devious point is that it was a normal baby and the breedr kept it longer until it showed more color and up the price on it ..
And as far as bloodlines, it does matter, how do you think true blue noseybes appeared? Andand as far as colors...depending on who you get a panther from...genetics are a factor...i got my ambilobe due to the fact that the sire had mixed barring and more reds/ oranges..and mine came out with that range...takes some generations to have a certain look
Im all for being a smart shopper and getting deals and research who you buy from but its sad to hear people view others as dishonest...i know a good sponsors and lowscale breeders that work hard to make an honest living / or hobby ...its true there are mant dishonest crooks out there but there are good ones too.....
Lol i dont think know one wants to be a lamb in this case...the last thing people want to hear is that their stupidity made them waste money....to each their own..as long as you are happy of what you bought.
Elizadolots
New Member
Why are we responding to troll like posting? If he wants to waste money doing what he wants then fine. Who cares that is up to him and his family what he wants to do. If he makes the panther chameleon market crash then maybe we can pay attention but until then this arguing is going nowhere.
Neither side is convinced by the others points. Debate is kind of pointless without trying to understand both sides of the issue. That said it's been kind of entertaining to read all this.
You've nailed it...it's an interesting discussion even if we think the OP was off base with the original post.
drcrossfire
Avid Member
So i think this thread was started just to troll everyone....
I dont think s/he wanted to hear the actual answers. just wanted everyone to get annoyed.
Winner=thread starter.
We fell for it.
EDIT: didn't make it all the way through-- just noticed other people thought it was a troll too... so yea-- i agree!!!!!!!
I dont think s/he wanted to hear the actual answers. just wanted everyone to get annoyed.
Winner=thread starter.
We fell for it.
EDIT: didn't make it all the way through-- just noticed other people thought it was a troll too... so yea-- i agree!!!!!!!
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Don't get out much do you?
That's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying people take better care of animals that cost more.
Do you disagree?
I'm saying serious breeders who care well for their animals tend to work with animals that give them a decent profit margin for all their investment and time and effort.
Do you disagree?
I've visited a lot of breeders, professional, non-professional, profit generating, bedroom, small, large, etc over the years. I can promise you that breeders working with lizards that sell for more have better setups and their animals get better care than breeders who tend to work with animals that sell for less.
Do you disagree?
You seem to be saying that a lower class person could afford a $90 lizard vs $150 lizard- I think that is silly. Anyone who can afford a $90 lizard can afford a $150. It might take a little more time and discipline, but they can do it if they want to. The bonus if they do this is if they are "lower class" as you put it (which IMO is retarded and offensive- income is not necessarily a reflection of the value of an individual) they can generate a little more income to support their family. With cheap lizards, it becomes a burden on their family.
Do you disagree?
The really funny thing is that you seem to think you are inventing this idea. If you look around long enough now you can find $90 panthers. They do exist already.
Do you disagree?
You seem to think that making money from breeding is somehow unethical. I strongly disagree. We would not be anywhere close to where we are today with husbandry without long term professional breeders. Would you prefer a hobby without folks like the kammers, screameleons, etc?
jrh3
Established Member
Don't get out much do you?
That's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm saying people take better care of animals that cost more.
Do you disagree?
I'm saying serious breeders who care well for their animals tend to work with animals that give them a decent profit margin for all their investment and time and effort.
Do you disagree?
I've visited a lot of breeders, professional, non-professional, profit generating, bedroom, small, large, etc over the years. I can promise you that breeders working with lizards that sell for more have better setups and their animals get better care than breeders who tend to work with animals that sell for less.
Do you disagree?
You seem to be saying that a lower class person could afford a $90 lizard vs $150 lizard- I think that is silly. Anyone who can afford a $90 lizard can afford a $150. It might take a little more time and discipline, but they can do it if they want to. The bonus if they do this is if they are "lower class" as you put it (which IMO is retarded and offensive- income is not necessarily a reflection of the value of an individual) they can generate a little more income to support their family. With cheap lizards, it becomes a burden on their family.
Do you disagree?
The really funny thing is that you seem to think you are inventing this idea. If you look around long enough now you can find $90 panthers. They do exist already.
Do you disagree?
You seem to think that making money from breeding is somehow unethical. I strongly disagree. We would not be anywhere close to where we are today with husbandry without long term professional breeders. Would you prefer a hobby without folks like the kammers, screameleons, etc?
They cost more because people keep paying the price. This doesnt make them worth anymore than a carpet.
Final and last question? Why has all the other chameleon prices droped once established except panthers?
Popularity has put this price tag on them, not cost of raising the babies!!!!
I will stick with the black sheep chameleons, haha.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
That's what I said back in my first post. Welcome to the free market- it's all about supply and demand. Glad you seem to finally get it.
Well, I've been breeding chameleons for 20 years and other than veileds (paid $250 ea for my first ones and shipped them in on the airlines and drove 2 hours to pick them up 20 years ago LOL) I can't think of *any* that are much if at all lower in price now than they were 20 years ago. Panthers went up and have come down some. They are still nowhere as low as they once were (I remember $40 panthers- but then again I remember $60 wholesale parsons). Others have gone up some as well- mainly the 4 out of madagascar. The rest are about the same as they were, only I see some african captive breds like fishers and quads selling for more than they used to which is a good thing.
Actually, come to think of it, prices aside, I can't think of any species other than veileds that are truly "established", with panthers putting in a decent possibility of the only other species, provided someone can prove several generational breeding without importing fresh blood from the wild into their colony. Last I heard that had not been done with panthers- pretty much veileds are it. So I have no idea what you mean by "all the other species" that have been established.
So, once again, you seem to be making a point that is not valid. The price on the species out of Africa has seemingly remained pretty nearly the same for the past 20 years. The Madagascans went up because of quotas (supply vs demand).
OK, now that the OP has validated pretty much everything I've said with his newfound understanding about supply and demand and talked himself into a circle and finished up with a non-factual point about prices and what is established I'll stop feeding the troll.
Cheers OP and cheers all!
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