Opinions on Chameleon Pricing

[jrh3]

I see the panther pricing has not dropped much in the past few years at all. This completely makes no sense. There is no more cost in breeding a Panther than there is a Veiled. So whats the difference? Supply and Demand? No Way, there are many, many, many panther chameleons CB and ready to be sold. Im willing to bet that the Panthers are easier to find than a Veiled. Is it because of their awesome colors, maybe? But this doesn't justify a price 10 times higher than the common veiled because from past research the panthers being breed out number the veiled being bred.

There are many other not so common species out there that only sell for a cheap price. I have found that the harder the species is to care for the CHEAPER it is, why? Panthers are very over priced when you compare apples to apples. What are your opinions on this? BTW when i sold my panthers I only sold them for around 90 bucks. 200 plus is crazy for a baby ambilobe or sambava or even ambanja.

Unless when you buy from a breeder you are paying for their name and the OH I GOT THIS FROM __________.COM AND THIS BLOODLINE IS THE BEST.
Haha I have found you can get high quality chameleons from just a regular joe that has a breeding pair.

All input is welcome.

 

[Psychodrake]

Chameleon pricing is a bit odd. Down here in this part of England, only one store I know stocks Panthers and they get them from a reputable breeder. The males cost something like £125 and the females £90-100. These are young ones too, adults go for much more. Veileds are about £60.

It must be the vivid and varied coloration of Panthers. I can't see any other reason.

They are spectacular pets. Maybe it's just breeders and stores taking advantage of the demand.

 

[fluxlizard]

I think your assumption is way off.

Welcome to the free market where supply and demand sort out the price.

If panthers were actually over-produced and over-priced like you say, the breeders would be stuck with animals they needed to get rid of and soon the price would drop. It happens with every other lizard- panther chameleons are sold in the same market place as the rest.

Your assumption that price is set based on some percentage of production cost to come up with a profit margin is only partly true. Look at the operating system most computers use- windows. Bill gates is a billionaire many times over. Think that is because products are priced according to the cost of production? Think again- demand plays a big role and demand is created by perception. Windows generally sucks most releases (xp and 7 being the exceptions with all the others mainly sucking big time) but because it won the business market early on, it was perceived as the best and demand allowed it to be priced very high compared to production cost. Price in a free-market is based much on perception which creates a demand. Production cost and difficulty is only the first step in determining price.

Veileds are in fact lots easier to produce in large numbers, especially if the long-term health of the mother is not a consideration. Plus they are lots easier to go many generations without investing in fresh wild caught bloodlines.

Plus as someone who was away from panthers for several years, they did in fact drop in price while I was gone. I remember them being around $300-400 from just about anybody. Now bargain shoppers can find lesser known breeders and get them for $125 or less.

Haha I have found you can get high quality chameleons from just a regular joe that has a breeding pair.

I have found that "regular joes" are sometimes great places to buy lizards and other times a bad idea.

An awful lot of bedroom breeders bought brother/sister pairs of lizards at the nearest reptile-show from other bedroom breeders who did the same before them. An awful lot cut their weaklings out of the eggs so they can survive to be sold. An awful lot breed a few clutches and then because of poor husbandry fail to repeat their success and get out of it. The risk of bargain buying accidentally mixed locals is higher also because the bargain bedroom breeder often only has a few lizards to judge whether that female they got is mixed or pure and they don't keep things back long enough after hatching to verify. I've seen about a "zillion" bedroom breeders come and go on various lizards and many of them don't even last a year.

On the other hand, sometimes bedroom breeders are in fact a very good source of quality lizards. They often do not have the need to make an actual profit on their animals, so if they have sufficient means they can invest more in the care of their animals and sell them for less just because they are in it for fun and don't need to worry about the bottom line (or maybe have an incorrect idea of where the bottom line is because they forget to add up some of their investment when producing the babies like costs of electricity, medication for the parents, housing, light fixtures, supplementation, insects, labor-time, etc).

So yes, sometimes bargains can be found and they are worth it. Other times it can be a gamble. The trick is to figure out which is which. Other times the buyer is in fact paying for the breeder's name, but often that name is worth it. Plunk your money down with the kammers or screameleons and you can rest easy that you have a nice healthy very well started lizard on the way that is going to thrive for you without a lot of fuss at the start. Sometimes that peace of mind and feeling of satisfaction and quality is worth the extra cost.

Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

As for the cost of the not-so common species- I agree with you in that most are dramatically under-priced. I've put a bit of thought into this in the past and have come up with some valid reasons.

1) All of these cheap species are available very cheaply as wild caught. Sometimes in large numbers. Like it or not, import price effects the marketplace price for captive bred individuals.

2)Cheap imports also negatively effect perception of certain species. The perception is cheap=junk (and often it does- imports often crash and die within weeks of purchase).

3) Big breeders don't work with the other species because they are a bit more difficult sometimes to get figured out and going and then they are cheaper once they do get going. It's a circle where panthers are selected because they are a sure thing, and their price makes the investment worthwhile.

4)Advertising- panther chameleons are advertised all over the place as "the" chameleon to get. Magazines, books, the internet- all advertise this idea. Veileds are the cheap introduction, panthers are what you really want when you can afford it or are the goal to achieve after success with veileds.

No magazine article says dilepis is "the" hot new chameleon to get. Indeed most magazine articles on chameleons only include veileds and panthers and maybe jacksons if jacksons are lucky.

I really admire the guys working with the kinyongia species. They are building a market for this species and slowly getting people to recognise what wonderful animals they are. What they need next is an article in REPTILES magazine.

Just my random thoughts on your topic.

 

[Chuck G]

Reputation is everything in this business. If you earn a good reputation for selling healthy and spectacular chameleons then your chameleons will always warrant more money than the average Joe chameleon breeder. I know the amount of effort I put in from start to finish for a chameleon I sell and I price accordingly. Some people buy their sushi fom a grocery store but I would rather buy from a good sushi restaurant. Bottom line is there are breeders that fit everyone's budget.

 

[bighutch917]

I understand your point but I think it is a bit naive. I don't think you can put Veiled and Panther chameleons in the same bucket. The color variety found amongst the various Panther locales have everything to do with pricing. When comparing "apples to apples", are you comparing "granny apples to red apples" because granny apples are generally more expensive? Still, they are both "apples".

At the end of the day, we live in a capitalistic society and the choice falls on the shoulder of the consumer. Vendors have the right to sell their product for whatever they believe it's worth to be. On the flip side, consumers have the right to reject the price and shop elsewhere.

Your "average Joe" breeder may not apply the same time, funding, care, effort or experience to his breeding project that a reputable breeder does. Assuming othewise does the chameleon community a HUGE disservice.

Personally, I spare NO expense when it comes acquiring the best of the best and by that I mean the animal is 100% healthy, pedigree and of a cherry picked status. Because of that, I limit my business to a handful of breeders/importers.

Rearing Panther neonates can be very expensive and a arduous task. As with other types of business, those costs are generally passed along to the customer. Because veiled chameleons produce larger clutches and hardier offspring, they are generally less expensive and readily available.

I think the old adage "you get what you pay for" is very fitting for this topic.

 

[Maurer3D]

Genetics..... That is what you are paying for. There are so many locals and most breeders are trying to keep them as pure as possible. Also most breeders raise panther babies for 3 to 4 months before selling them (which can be costly), most Veileds I see cheap are only 1 to 2 months old.

Also, female Panthers tend not to live very long (3 to 4 years) and produce only 10 to 20 eggs per clutch (Veileds can easily produce upto 30 to 50 eggs per clutch).

Alot of the harder to keep species are imports hence the cheap price. But in the end imports can cost way more than the sticker price (disease, parasites old age, missing body parts, malnutrition, ect....).

 

[biglittle]

this is economics 101. panthers cost more because people are willing to pay it. if the buying public said i'm not going to pay more than 200 for a chameleon then there would be no such thing as a panther that goes for 500 or a parson's that goes for thousands. price is dictated by us, the buyer, if you don't like the prices just don't buy.

 

[jrh3]

this is economics 101. panthers cost more because people are willing to pay it. if the buying public said i'm not going to pay more than 200 for a chameleon then there would be no such thing as a panther that goes for 500 or a parson's that goes for thousands. price is dictated by us, the buyer, if you don't like the prices just don't buy.

Exactly, i have owned many panthers in the past and i dont see them being worth what people are paying. A 200 plus chameleon is not a panther, look at all the sponser on this forum what does every single one of them sell. Its like here in alabama at the reptile shows there is 95% ball pythons. OK every one on here is selling panthers, Hummm, seem odd. But as long as people still buy i guess they will keep pricing up. I have a new goal, I will start breeding panthers, and only elite bloodline panthers, and buy my studs from the top cham breeders in the business. I will then offer them for 70-90 bucks each. I can offer the same guarantee and health. guarantee the same healthly bloodline as any top breeder, my only difference is im doing it as a hobby and not a living, im also not money hungry. So when the market is flooded with 90 dollar grade A chameleons you can look back and thank me. I have been behind the curtians with a few breeders here and can tell you that they will be very comfortabe selling them for 90 each, but people continue to pay 200 so why not.

 

[camimom]

Exactly, i have owned many panthers in the past and i dont see them being worth what people are paying. A 200 plus chameleon is not a panther, look at all the sponser on this forum what does every single one of them sell. Its like here in alabama at the reptile shows there is 95% ball pythons. OK every one on here is selling panthers, Hummm, seem odd. But as long as people still buy i guess they will keep pricing up. I have a new goal, I will start breeding panthers, and only elite bloodline panthers, and buy my studs from the top cham breeders in the business. I will then offer them for 70-90 bucks each. I can offer the same guarantee and health. guarantee the same healthly bloodline as any top breeder, my only difference is im doing it as a hobby and not a living, im also not money hungry. So when the market is flooded with 90 dollar grade A chameleons you can look back and thank me. I have been behind the curtians with a few breeders here and can tell you that they will be very comfortabe selling them for 90 each, but people continue to pay 200 so why not.

Ill buy a panther from you for 70-90 bucks! hahah.

 

[Dperez87]

Id take a pather for 90 as well

 

[Chuck G]

Exactly, i have owned many panthers in the past and i dont see them being worth what people are paying. A 200 plus chameleon is not a panther, look at all the sponser on this forum what does every single one of them sell. Its like here in alabama at the reptile shows there is 95% ball pythons. OK every one on here is selling panthers, Hummm, seem odd. But as long as people still buy i guess they will keep pricing up. I have a new goal, I will start breeding panthers, and only elite bloodline panthers, and buy my studs from the top cham breeders in the business. I will then offer them for 70-90 bucks each. I can offer the same guarantee and health. guarantee the same healthly bloodline as any top breeder, my only difference is im doing it as a hobby and not a living, im also not money hungry. So when the market is flooded with 90 dollar grade A chameleons you can look back and thank me. I have been behind the curtians with a few breeders here and can tell you that they will be very comfortabe selling them for 90 each, but people continue to pay 200 so why not.

Please let everyone know how your experiment works out. I see people lining up now for your chameleons.

 

[Fiendmeleon]

Exactly, i have owned many panthers in the past and i dont see them being worth what people are paying. A 200 plus chameleon is not a panther, look at all the sponser on this forum what does every single one of them sell. Its like here in alabama at the reptile shows there is 95% ball pythons. OK every one on here is selling panthers, Hummm, seem odd. But as long as people still buy i guess they will keep pricing up. I have a new goal, I will start breeding panthers, and only elite bloodline panthers, and buy my studs from the top cham breeders in the business. I will then offer them for 70-90 bucks each. I can offer the same guarantee and health. guarantee the same healthly bloodline as any top breeder, my only difference is im doing it as a hobby and not a living, im also not money hungry. So when the market is flooded with 90 dollar grade A chameleons you can look back and thank me. I have been behind the curtians with a few breeders here and can tell you that they will be very comfortabe selling them for 90 each, but people continue to pay 200 so why not.

That's tough talk, but if it was that simple why haven't you done it already. If you took proper measures to set up a breeding facility and used "top of the line" chams, you'd easily have a 4-figured investment. Not to mention your time and effort that goes into raising them. Take into consideration all the other costs and overhead, and you might think your little babies are worth more than before.

Regardless of those points, if you want to save the hobby one $90 Cham at a time, by all means do it. However don't bash sponsors on the forum that they pay to advertise on...

 

[Emcee101]

Right... I don't care about you defending their price. The only way id buy a panther is if it was a set 90$ plus shipping or even 125$ plus shipping ain't bad. This being Baby, juvies. If anythin ill just stick with Veileds. I'm sure breeding will go out of control soon enough.

 

[jrh3]

That's tough talk, but if it was that simple why haven't you done it already. If you took proper measures to set up a breeding facility and used "top of the line" chams, you'd easily have a 4-figured investment. Not to mention your time and effort that goes into raising them. Take into consideration all the other costs and overhead, and you might think your little babies are worth more than before.

Regardless of those points, if you want to save the hobby one $90 Cham at a time, by all means do it. However don't bash sponsors on the forum that they pay to advertise on...

There was no bashing of the sponsors, i just wanted to see where everyone stands on what they pay for chameleons. Thanks for you input though noob. You need to research, and be handy on your own. I can setup 20 cages that i built, breed my own feeders, build my own incubator and still come out under a grand, i have done it before.

 

[jrh3]

Please let everyone know how your experiment works out. I see people lining up now for your chameleons.

Chuck, I have done this in the past and have sold them for 90 bucks fast. So i dont have to try it again. I have been away from them for a year now because work was interfering, i now have to extra time for them, no im not going to become a profesional breeder, but will breed as i did in the past. I have lost whole clutches before, its just part of the game, but i can say, and you know for a fact that 200 bucks for a 3 month old panther is crazy, and you only see this if your NOT doing it for a living.

 

[Olimpia]

I won't pay more than $150 for a panther, so I buy from one breeder who keeps his prices around this figure, plus $6 in shipping. I used to pay $100 for geckos, so why not pay a little more for an animal that I find that much more gorgeous. I was super happy to find a female that is gorgeous for around $100 but I don't consider paying $150 for an exotic animal out of the question, frankly, especially a CBB one. I paid twice as much only for a CBB Meller's.

Who wouldn't want to pay less, for anything at all, but I don't think it's necessarily extravagant either.

 

[jrh3]

I won't pay more than $150 for a panther, so I buy from one breeder who keeps his prices around this figure, plus $6 in shipping. I used to pay $100 for geckos, so why not pay a little more for an animal that I find that much more gorgeous. I was super happy to find a female that is gorgeous for around $100 but I don't consider paying $150 for an exotic animal out of the question, frankly, especially a CBB one. I paid twice as much only for a CBB Meller's.

Who wouldn't want to pay less, for anything at all, but I don't think it's necessarily extravagant either.

I agree with you totally, a panthers care is pretty low on the care scale if you ask me, look at the Usambara 2 horn breeders, small clutches, 1 year incubation, lower temps. Alot more to care for and only sell babies for 100-150 each, they should be a 200 buck chameleon. But they dont have the blues and red that many new people like.

 

[Olimpia]

I agree with you totally, a panthers care is pretty low on the care scale if you ask me, look at the Usambara 2 horn breeders, small clutches, 1 year incubation, lower temps. Alot more to care for and only sell babies for 100-150 each, they should be a 200 buck chameleon. But they dont have the blues and red that many new people like.

I do think it's unfair that the rarer, more delicate species are priced so low. But I see how the market dictates it - Say a normal person has to pick between two animals, both CBB and priced at $200; one is a panther and the other is X. X requires that the room be cooler and more humid, so the person may have to invest in a small AC unit for the room and a humidifier, also be more afraid of killing it due to noob mistakes. The panther might not need any of that in most homes, and the word on the street is that they're pretty hardy for chameleons, so you're less likely to kill it.

I think most people would go for the panther also because it seems easier. It's more a pet and less of a job, or chore, to do so much work to keep it happy and healthy. I don't think that many of these rarer species are any uglier, AT ALL, but they aren't as flashy and then the level of care probably scares people.

Just look at this forum - we scare people into going for veileds and panthers because they're less likely to be killed by newbie mistakes. I can see how people would be turned off from these neat rare species. Even I was strongly advised against starting my cham collection with a Jacksons! So we don't necessarily nurture a demand for the rarer species.

 

[drcrossfire]

Seems to me it would be very hard to ever break even at $90 a cham...

 

[fluxlizard]

if you want to save the hobby one $90 Cham at a time, by all means do it.

LOL I don't see that as saving the hobby. Opposite really - when prices go down and lizards get cheap, they get cheap owners who are only willing to set them up and care for them on the cheap.

Cheap lizards = ignorant owners, bad breeding facilities, poor medical care, etc.

Basically you can look at the larger part of the veiled chameleon hobby and see what you would get with other cheap chameleons.

Cheap = junk = disposable.

I hardly see that as saving the hobby. Really if you want a good hobby with widespread clean breeders and beautiful set-ups, and good health care and pampered animals- money is needed to support that.

If the price crashes and goes into a downward spiral it won't stop at $90. It never has for other lizards. No matter how big of a cheapa you are, someone always comes along who is cheaper and cares less than you about the cost of care.

It's a moot point anyway.

The truth is at this point in time although you could sell some $90 panthers on the quick, a lot of us would be pretty leary of buying anything at that price point because it would raise concerns about the quality of the animal, whether those concerns are justified or not- peace of mind is worth something.

And unless you bred in really large numbers with a considerable investment in time and money on your part, your cheap stuff will be snapped up quickly whenever they are available by those who are more concerned about price vs what quality the animal is and the rest of the market will hardly feel it at all. There must be many tens of thousands of panthers produced annually a few hundred or even a few thousand are unlikely to have a significant impact overall... If you intend to crash every morph, it will take you a decade or more and cost you a really significant investment in time and money- building a few cages from scrap in your garage is unlikely to make up the difference (I've been there done that LOL).